{"error":false,"id":["149421"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149421,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149421","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T12:59:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T13:09:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8cd7029e7dffbd111e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a68f3283415c968b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:59:04 - 13:09:43","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1547,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時59分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：許部長，直接就教，我們現在要開放印度移工的引進，那產業現在缺工的狀況到底有多少？"],["許部長銘春：產業的缺工，像製造業，我們去年有做統計，整個缺工大概二十三萬多。"],["洪委員孟楷：二十三萬多。"],["許部長銘春：二十三萬七，全體產業，全體。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，你現在很簡單嘛！你的報告裡面有講說製造業、營造業缺工問題嚴重，那你的問題嚴重是有多嚴重？"],["許部長銘春：營造業大概目前是2萬，製造業大概是7.4萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，製造業是7.4萬，營造業是2萬，加起來是不是將近10萬？"],["許部長銘春：對，差不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在移工總共是多少人？是75萬，那其中你講的是說泰國籍六萬多，但是你下面也講泰國因為經濟發展，有減少移工輸出的趨勢，所以我們泰國籍的移工是不是越來越少？"],["許部長銘春：會越來越少。"],["洪委員孟楷：會越來越少嘛。可能他們覺得泰國本地經濟也發展起來，所以他們可能就會回國，對不對？或者是說他們可能有去其他地方。所以你剛剛講的缺工有10萬人，再加上泰國籍差不多6萬人也減少了，所以是不是我們現在缺口至少有16萬人左右？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有，不是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：缺口至少10萬人以上。"],["許部長銘春：缺口大概10萬，我們現在調查的數字是這樣，我們都會滾動地去瞭解缺工的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。那本席就好奇，去年就有傳言說勞動部要跟印度簽MOU，引進印度的移工，當時有講到有可能要引進10萬移工，勞動部特地發文說這個是假消息、假訊息，結果不到兩個月的時間，今年2月就已經簽署了MOU，後續還會再完成正式的締約，結果我們再看，今天部長也證實了，確實現在缺口就至少有10萬以上……"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼沒有？你兩分鐘前才說……"],["許部長銘春：不是，這兩件事情沒有關聯啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是。你先聽完我講的話。部長，本席現在就要問的是，你現在一直口口聲聲說我們要開放印度移工是給雇主多一個選擇，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那雇主為什麼要多一個選擇？就是因為原本的這些管道已經不足以讓他拿到這一些移工了嘛……"],["許部長銘春：不是，不是，不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：他沒有辦法引進這些移工了嘛。如果說他可以引進這些移工的話，就不存在你所謂的10萬個缺口，不是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我這麼講，雇主就現有的來源國可以引進移工……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們這個是一個未雨綢繆的規劃，因為就像剛剛講的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是未雨綢繆，這叫補破網。部長，因為你已經承認了，你剛剛已經承認了我們現在缺口是10萬。"],["許部長銘春：不是補破網。缺口的10萬，他要用本勞還是用外勞來引進，這個都是大家來努力啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：那為什麼我們現在產業會有缺工10萬？這是你統計的，本席都用您給的數字來跟你就教。為什麼那麼多委員都會關心你現在貿然開放到底要多少？你都講說沒有沒有，這是MOU，人數你不知道，人數你們會控管，放心，大家一定會把關好，但重點就在於，當我們就是有那麼多缺口的時候，你是不是就要從這個地方補足這個缺口？否則的話，我們國內的產業就是需要這些人啊。"],["許部長銘春：不是啦。委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說我們缺口沒有那麼嚴重的話，你為什麼要去簽這個MOU？為什麼要跟印度簽MOU？"],["許部長銘春：這是兩回事，簽MOU是開發新的來源國……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你開發新的來源國的用意是什麼？就是要補足缺口嘛。"],["許部長銘春：不是補足那個缺口啦。MOU是這樣子，我新增來源國就是讓雇主未來有多一個選擇，讓我們不會太過依賴已經開放的這四個國家，萬一哪一天他們暫停或不輸出，那我們可能整個移工的來源會出問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在我們有掌握到哪一個地方有可能暫停或不輸出嗎？"],["許部長銘春：目前是正常，但是我剛剛跟委員說……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，所以你講的狀況根本不存在……"],["許部長銘春：不是，就剛剛我講的，泰國的營造工已經不太進來了，越南的經濟也慢慢上來，我們也擔心，以後如果他們那邊的薪資條件各方面比較好，他們可能就沒有要來，所以我們要做一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在講的是，行政部門在一個多月、兩個月前、去年可以大動作地說這個是假訊息，結果選完不到一個月的時間，就簽了MOU，所以這根本……"],["許部長銘春：我說的假訊息是第一個、還沒有簽，有在談，沒有簽；第二個，我想去……"],["洪委員孟楷：有在談，沒有簽，但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有10萬的這個問題，沒有10萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有10萬，但是有10萬的缺口，不是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：那個是兩回事啦。缺口是主計總處的調查，是1月的調查，我怎麼之前就會去處理？這兩個部分是……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你真要這樣講，我們就再就教一下，這是你今天給的報告，3月6日勞動部給的報告，你開宗明義第一章是什麼？移工需求逐年增加，尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重。你自己寫的，本席就要問你你的依據是什麼，憑什麼寫缺工問題嚴重？你所謂的嚴重到底是差了多少人？你剛剛就講是10萬人嘛，所以這就是根本的問題所在。","部長，本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情，但是本席其實最重點是什麼？重點是想要提醒你，我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工？到底我們的問題是本勞都不願意去做那些工作，還是業者不願意再出更多的成本，所以要push你們這邊要有更多的移工管道？因為本席都知道，很多的營造業可能也會跟我們講，現在馬來西亞或東南亞有一些國家的營造也起來了，甚至有很多東南亞的國家，他們可能會選擇去其他國家做移工，而不是選擇臺灣，就是說，他們認為那邊的薪資待遇也不錯，所以我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工？那我們除了開放，有沒有規劃未來再去提升整個勞工的待遇環境？","我最後再講一點。抱歉，主席，再給我30秒。剛剛臨時提案有提到要跟縣市政府來溝通，縣市政府有沒有準備好？剛剛有講到可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會，但是我想請教，如果真的有印度移工進來的話，有沒有算過哪些縣市會優先，那一些移工會比較優先去那些縣市？"],["許部長銘春：這個看到時候雇主的選擇啊！這個沒有辦法去瞭解……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是。我想問的是，你其實很簡單，你完全可以去瞭解，你只要做一個研究，你去調查現在營造業跟製造業主要的工程、主要的施工環境在哪邊、在哪幾個縣市，就看得出來哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重，既然可以知道哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重，未來印度移工可以開放的話，一定是那幾個縣市優先想要搶印度移工啊，所以那幾個縣市是不是就是重點、應該先說明的地方？如果說有些縣市根本沒有那個工作機會或沒有工作需求，即便你開放100個國家，也不會有移工去嘛。但是現在有一些縣市，譬如說新北市，可能重大工程比較多，相對來講，開放移工之後，是不是有可能因為缺工問題嚴重，所以就比較有可能找移工進來？那是不是新北市政府就應該要列為勞動部優先溝通的對象或是說明的對象？這您認同嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以啦。這個部分，我們後續會跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以盤點？部長，能不能盤點出來現在缺工問題嚴重的是在哪幾個縣市？"],["許部長銘春：因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署，到時候我們邀他們開會的時候，大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是勞動部主管的就是勞動相關的問題，所以這也是為什麼大家會問你嘛。"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員，我們是負責說哪些行業可以引進移工、開發新的來源國，產業的缺工問題，各目的事業主管機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你們不是只是開放，後續的問題，不管是社會問題、水土不服適應的問題或種種問題，都丟給其他的部會……"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這是為什麼本席才會說……"],["許部長銘春：委員，我剛才講是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府。"],["許部長銘春：我不會丟給地方政府，我剛剛是要跟你解釋說，營造業的問題、缺工的問題，還有各縣市……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然不要丟給地方政府，勞動部是不是應該先找地方政府來溝通？看到底地方政府有沒有準備好，或是說地方政府說明會應該要事先做什麼準備，來因應未來有可能進來的印度移工。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們諮詢會議會邀請，包括我們後續的工作層級會議，我們從各部會瞭解缺工狀況，比如說，如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道每個縣市營造業缺工情形，我們也會來……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我最後一句話，我想請教，你什麼時候會開諮詢會？什麼時候會開？"],["許部長銘春：諮詢會議開過一次了，3月1日開過一次了……"],["洪委員孟楷：找了哪幾個縣市政府？"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦，這一次只有專家學者跟跨部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，只有專家，本席剛剛就講嘛，未來諮詢會議找縣市政府，告訴縣市政府，之後有可能印度移工人數增加的話，縣市政府要怎麼因應，要有什麼措施來配合。什麼時候會開？"],["許部長銘春：這個我們再來做規劃，後續的會議規劃我們請業務單位來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：在開放印度移工前一定要開，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以啊。這沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：開放印度移工進來之前，一定要跟縣市政府，尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會、說明會，這樣可以？"],["許部長銘春：這沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。謝謝部長。"],["主席：好。謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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一個多月兩個月前去年可以大動作的講是說這個是假訊息結果選完到一個月的時間就簽了NOU所以說這根本就是有在談沒有簽但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了沒有10萬但是你有10萬的缺口"},{"start":317.506,"end":345.608,"text":"那個兩位是啦缺口那是主計總署的調查他是1月的調查我怎麼之前就會去這兩個部份是來來來這一件來來來部長您正要這樣講我們就再就教一下這是你今天給的報告3月6號勞動部給的報告你開宗明義第一章是什麼移工需求逐年增加那移工需求逐年增加尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重"},{"start":347.571,"end":376.79,"text":"那你缺工問題嚴重你自己寫的本席就要問你是說你的依據是什麼憑什麼會寫缺工問題嚴重嘛你嚴重到底是差了多少人所以說你剛剛就講就是10萬人嘛所以這就是根本的問題所在部長本席現在我們花了4分鐘部長本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情但是本席其實最重點是什麼重點是想要提醒你我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工"},{"start":377.551,"end":377.585,"text":"本集完"},{"start":379.482,"end":406.784,"text":"到底我們的是本勞我們都不願意去做那些工作還是業者不願意再出更多的成本所以說要push你們這邊要進要有更多的移工管道因為本席都知道很多的營造業可能也都跟我們講是說現在馬來西亞或是東南亞一些國家他們的營造也起來了所以說甚至有很多東南亞國家他們也可能會選擇去其他的國家去做移工而不是選擇台灣"},{"start":407.845,"end":425.872,"text":"就是他們認為是說那邊的這個薪資待遇也不錯所以我們到底確實是勞工還是廉價勞工那我們除了說只是開放有沒有未來再去提升整個勞工的一個待遇環境我最後講一點啦抱歉主席三四秒"},{"start":427.56,"end":447.26,"text":"剛臨時提案有提到是說要跟縣市政府這邊來溝通縣市政府有沒有準備好那剛剛有講到是說可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會但我想請教我們如果說真的有印度移工進來的話有沒有算過說哪些縣市政府會優先那些移工會比較去那些縣市政府"},{"start":450.902,"end":465.101,"text":"這個 這個看到到時候雇主的選擇啊不是啊 我想問的是你其實很簡單你完全可以了解你只要做一個研究你去調查現在營造業跟製造業到底主要的"},{"start":466.141,"end":467.883,"text":"所以那幾個縣市是不是就重點應該先說明的地方"},{"start":487.816,"end":487.996,"text":"這您認同嗎?"},{"start":513.527,"end":522.47,"text":"可以啦 這個部分我覺得因為我們後續我們後續會跟到底哪個縣市報告委因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署但是勞動部主管的就是這個相關勞動的問題所以這也是為什麼他會問你嘛不是 委員 我們是負責說"},{"start":536.875,"end":539.819,"text":"部長你們不是只是開放了一個之後後續的問題不管是社會問題相關水土不服適應問題或是等等的問題都丟給其他的部會"},{"start":552.675,"end":556.939,"text":"所以這是為什麼本席才會講是說甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府所以我們既然不要丟給地方政府是不是就應該勞動部先找地方政府來溝通看到底地方政府準備好或是說地方政府說明會他們應該要事先做什麼準備來因應未來有可能進來"},{"start":574.536,"end":588.149,"text":"資訊會議報告委員我們資訊會議會邀請那包括我們的後續的工作層級會議各部會我們了解缺工狀況比如說如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道說每個縣市部長最後一句話啦這樣請教你什麼時候會開這個說明會資訊會議什麼時候會開三月要開過一次找了哪幾個縣市政府"},{"start":596.719,"end":598.22,"text":"在開放印度移工前一定要開這樣可以嗎?可以啊 這沒有問題"},{"start":624.415,"end":637.1,"text":"開放印度移工進來之前一定要跟縣市政府尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會說明會這樣可以這沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}