{"error":false,"id":["149429"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149429,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149429","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T13:12:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T13:23:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ffad86503980fd422b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6544dd057527526835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:12:58 - 13:23:59","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1470,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陸委會邱主委和交通部林常次。"],["主席：請邱主委和林次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我想要再確認一下，你這邊有表示現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來臺前，假設我方單方面開放赴陸，將造成龐大的觀光逆差，是不是？什麼時候陸委會的業務跟觀光逆差、順差都有相關？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告，我們陸委會要綜整各部會對於這個議題的情勢分析。"],["洪委員孟楷：陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：根據陸委會的組織法，我們對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調、應對方案的擬定，透過國安的討論之後來做定調。如果涉及到法令的部分，因為陸委會大概有19個部會部長是我們的委員，如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令，原則上要在我們的委員會討論完之後才送到行政院，如果需要送到立法院的，再送到立法院來。所以我們是在做政策統合協調。當然，在政策統合協調過程中，各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會，我們就會召集各個單位來討論，所以如果涉及國安的部分，就會邀請國安單位，例如國安局也好、移民署也好或相關海巡署等等，大概就是這樣的運作機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在3月到5月底開放組團到大陸也是陸委會同意？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，當做了政策暫停的時候，後續如果有一些問題要處理的話，那就由目的事業主管機關，因為這是事務性的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在又變目的事業主管機關？你剛說彙整，現在又說目的事業主管機關。"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講兩個層次嗎？因為有一個目的事業主管機關負責執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席其實最重要的是說，今天你這邊回應說造成龐大的觀光逆差，我們想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差或逆差。"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講了，各部會的政策評估會送到我們這邊來。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，最重點是說到目前為止，我們自己的觀光旅遊產業，本席為什麼一定要過來，就是因為我們也要為觀光旅遊產業來發聲，疫情開始的時候，飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、運輸等相關行業都非常辛苦，好不容易等到疫情結束、春暖花開，也覺得真的如果兩岸可以恢復平穩交流的話，當然就可以有更平和的交流。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，委員剛才提到，如果我們再把我們的國人送出去，國內的觀光旅遊業者豈不是更慘？他們的不來，我們又送人出去。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你不用扭曲我的話，你也不用刻意戴我帽子。"],["邱主任委員太三：不，你剛剛講的是平和。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在講的是政治宣示大於整個政策發展……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席才會講，突然間說片面的又要再取消、再禁止我們的旅行社組團，而我們用的，其實很多時候，你剛剛也講了，就是說這有什麼國安考慮等等的部分。"],["邱主任委員太三：那個不是在講這個。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們用的法令是旅行相關的法令。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是沒有直接關聯的，等於是你們想要找一個片面的法令來限制我們的旅行業者，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！現在看起來就是這樣啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，因為在8月份的時候，你如果回去好好看8月份我們新聞稿的宣布，就是雙方對等開放嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席跟你講的是未來，但是你一直在講的都是歷史。"],["邱主任委員太三：不……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講的是去年的8月，本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月，今年6月的時候要禁止旅行社再組團去中國大陸，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在旅行社6月可以組團去中國大陸嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛交通部不是講了嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：次長回答一下，現在旅行社6月可以組團去中國大陸嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對方如果宣布明天說他們來，雙方就可以對等的互……"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在呢？現在旅行社可不可以組團去中國大陸？"],["邱主任委員太三：5月底之前都可以啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！所以你不就是5月底以前又做了一個變更嗎？你這根本就是強詞奪理！"],["邱主任委員太三：3月到5月底是因為暫停，等待對方善意回應這樣……調整處理機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在看得出來了，主委現在是在強詞奪理並且……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有強詞奪理啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不願意直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我直接面對問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，你沒有直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我怎麼沒直接面對問題？"],["洪委員孟楷：今天召委排這個專案報告非常的好，就是可以讓國人看到不管是我們的大陸委員會或相關的部會，首長都沒有直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我直接面對問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：講到什麼事情的時候就會無限上綱，不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台，或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面，但是最重要的是，如果說沒有的話，現在很多國人前往中國大陸還是會變成地下的旅行團，不是嗎？到最後沒有保障、沒有辦法有旅行契約的，其實受苦、受傷、受害的還是我們的國人，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我講第一個部分，我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯。"],["邱主任委員太三：這是國人個人的行動自由。我們政府沒有法律的依據，不能禁止他，但是旅行業是兼具有消費者權益，還兼具有……產業政策……"],["洪委員孟楷：國人前往就沒有觀光逆差的問題，但是組團去就有觀光順差跟逆差的問題？你這樣完全邏輯不通嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，我剛剛不是跟你講嘛！旅行業兼具有對消費者的保護，還兼具有我們的產業政策，這會由交通部根據……旅行業管理規則來訂定。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我覺得這樣再跟你詢答下去會浪費時間，因為你持續在繞，而且沒有辦法針對問題、解決問題。請次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教次長，在這段時間裡面，有多少旅行業者向你陳情？有沒有接收到？不管是觀光署或次長這邊。"],["林次長國顯：是，跟我們署和交通部都有陳情。"],["洪委員孟楷：開過了幾次會？"],["林次長國顯：我們2月19日有把業者找來再做一次說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣的旅行業者？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有算過總共的旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎？我們影響了多少家庭？"],["林次長國顯：我們有4,038家旅行業者，但是超過50%陸客旅遊的有404家，大概10%。"],["洪委員孟楷：他們最主要的問題是什麼？是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的，但是6月突然又禁止了，現在沒有辦法收團，如果收團超過6月的狀況，是不是要取消或調整？還有，6月之後是不是遙遙無期？"],["林次長國顯：6月之後再看看……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為剛剛主委有完全不願意回答問題或滑溜的狀況，我們現在明明是用觀光條例等等來限制旅行業者，而且那一條觀光條例多嚴重啊！那一條觀光條例講的是什麼？國家安全、講的是有損害民風。"],["林次長國顯：國家利益、詐騙。"],["洪委員孟楷：那一條的立法精神是什麼？如果本席沒有記錯的話，那一條的立法精神最主要是，我們不希望臺灣、中華民國的旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法的狀況。"],["林次長國顯：您提的是第五十三條。"],["洪委員孟楷：對。"],["林次長國顯：第五十三條是希望發展觀光的過程不能玷辱國家榮譽、不能損害國家利益、不可以詐騙消費者三大項。"],["洪委員孟楷：當初那一條的立法精神是什麼？時空背景。"],["林次長國顯：這三個都是，例如人家來臺灣旅遊，結果損害了國家名譽……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，我們講的是當初的立法精神，回去查一下，那是以發展觀光來講，我們是不希望有一些不好的團、低價的團或詐騙的團出去外面，好像把旅客當成肥羊宰。"],["林次長國顯：對，不希望人家覺得我們國家有……不過這是第五十三條。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是進來的旅客或我們出去的旅客，我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、削價競爭，把人家帶出去之後，例如明明是低價團，帶到外面又一定要買東西什麼的，不然不放他走，甚至還可能有更危害善良風俗的團。"],["林次長國顯：是，那是第一項，第二項是損害國家利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以跟現在討論的是不是根本沒有相關？"],["林次長國顯：第二項是損害國家利益，損害國家利益就是拉到經濟和觀光業的層面，你剛剛講對觀光旅遊業者的……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，損害國家利益還沒有發生之前，你講的狀況不存在，但是是不是已經實質造成很多旅行業者家庭經濟損傷？我再請教，什麼時候會再跟旅行業者開會？一直都有？"],["林次長國顯：一直都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候還會再開會？現在討論你的政策要改變、要調整，到5月底以前還會不會再跟旅行社業者溝通？"],["林次長國顯：應該這樣講，我們政策上都已經很明確，這一段期間如果有善意的回應，開放大陸的自由行和團客過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至王國材部長還說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講，你這樣是叫大家……"],["林次長國顯：應該不是這個意思，應該是說溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不禁馬上回想這好像是：你們要自立自強啊！"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，應該是這個意思……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是交通部告訴我們所有業者要自立自強，要自己去跟中國大陸說？"],["林次長國顯：委員，我可不可以這樣跟你說明，我們的政策論述是，3月1日到5月31日之間繼續開放陸客團去大陸，但是這一段期間大陸如果有善意的回應，我們是可以隨時調整這個政策。"],["主席：次長，你不要再像鸚鵡一樣在回應這件事。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們都……"],["主席：你們剛剛一直都回應這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實。"],["林次長國顯：因為這個是目前的政策方向。"],["主席：因為今天的質詢時間都已經到了，是不是請孟楷委員也可以停止發言。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長、主委，帶回去好好了解旅行業者的心聲，不要在這邊鬼打牆或持續如剛才召委講的，真的是學鸚鵡講話。謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：好。"],["主席：非常謝謝孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝主委、次長和副署長。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘都已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復部分，請相關單位在一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭正鈐","羅智強","張啓楷","洪孟楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後\n續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.27534375,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.52284375,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.559718750000002,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.02346875,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.44534375,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.01034375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.044093750000002,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.06096875,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.195968750000002,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.03096875,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.034718750000003,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.696593750000005,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.62034375,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.63721875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.19409375,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.088468750000004,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.868468750000005,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.35659375,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.05221875,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.90409375,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.32596875,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.99596875,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.56971875000001,"end":63.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.852218750000006,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.44096875000001,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.92596875000001,"end":78.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.49534375,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.18659375,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.02971875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.48034375,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.48784375000001,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.65596875,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.68971875000001,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.29159375,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.14721875000001,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.93471875,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.90909375,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.22909375,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.04284375,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.25659375,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.04971875,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.15096875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.28596875000002,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.97346875000002,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.16159375,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.35471875000002,"end":175.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.02034375000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.47534375,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.39909375000002,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.97284375,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.69846875000002,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.43596875,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.29659375,"end":207.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.00909375,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.39721875,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.08284375000002,"end":217.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.89159375000003,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.15721875000003,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.39721875,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.59971875000002,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.89784375000002,"end":231.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.67409375000003,"end":234.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.54721875,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.34034375000002,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.20096875000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.82471875000002,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.41284375000004,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.30721875,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.38284375,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.85534375000003,"end":260.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.49221875,"end":274.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.50909375000003,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.55471875,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.53221875,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.30846875000003,"end":280.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.10096875,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.11784375,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.97846875,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.42096875000004,"end":285.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.02846875,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.18034375,"end":289.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.28159375,"end":286.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.92284375,"end":296.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.71971875,"end":335.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.65096875,"end":298.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.93784375,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.97159375,"end":299.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":299.24159375,"end":299.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.59596875,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.11471875,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.43534375,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.78784375000004,"end":313.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.11346875000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.95659375,"end":342.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.82971875000004,"end":346.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.33971875000003,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.14971875000003,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.12846875,"end":348.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.99721875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.03096875,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.04784375,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.31284375,"end":361.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.71284375000005,"end":372.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.82159375000003,"end":368.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.71159375,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.90096875,"end":372.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.93471875,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":373.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.85409375,"end":377.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.76534375,"end":376.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.78221875,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.79909375,"end":376.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.81596875,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.39784375000005,"end":380.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.10221875,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.85721875,"end":384.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.59096875,"end":386.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.09721875,"end":389.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.13096875,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":389.10096875000005,"end":389.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":390.07971875000004,"end":393.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.71221875000003,"end":393.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.55596875000003,"end":393.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.23096875000005,"end":394.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":394.26471875000004,"end":394.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.80034375,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.15846875000005,"end":400.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":400.81221875,"end":401.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.38596875,"end":406.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":407.12346875000003,"end":417.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.68034375,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.93721875,"end":412.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.81409375000004,"end":417.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.43409375000005,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.78159375,"end":438.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.18596875000003,"end":450.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.69471875000005,"end":452.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.41596875000005,"end":453.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.03596875000005,"end":455.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.85846875000004,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.21284375000005,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.51221875000005,"end":459.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":459.25034375,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.74784375,"end":462.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.37221875,"end":464.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":464.92034375000003,"end":464.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.93721875000006,"end":471.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.51846875,"end":476.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.45846875,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":477.49221875,"end":489.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.60846875000004,"end":492.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.85284375000003,"end":491.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.56159375000004,"end":492.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.83159375,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":494.72159375,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.56534375,"end":497.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":497.62409375000004,"end":503.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.66159375,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.83846875000006,"end":512.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":509.14971875000003,"end":510.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.7778437500001,"end":520.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":519.03846875,"end":522.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":522.81846875,"end":523.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":523.6115937500001,"end":523.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.67909375,"end":535.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":524.67471875,"end":524.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.94721875,"end":546.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":535.9640937500001,"end":537.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.26284375,"end":541.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.29659375,"end":541.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.83659375,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":542.8659687500001,"end":543.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":547.00034375,"end":548.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.0634687500001,"end":552.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.9072187500001,"end":550.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":552.90659375,"end":565.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.03159375,"end":573.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.0678437500001,"end":574.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":574.47284375,"end":574.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.14784375,"end":578.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.53534375,"end":580.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":580.3115937499999,"end":582.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.2565937500001,"end":586.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":583.0959687500001,"end":583.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":587.63534375,"end":587.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.8884687500001,"end":592.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":588.4115937500001,"end":589.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":590.36909375,"end":590.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.88784375,"end":601.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.30846875,"end":604.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.7084687500001,"end":617.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":605.8940937500001,"end":611.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":611.6147187500001,"end":612.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":615.6140937499999,"end":616.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":616.93034375,"end":631.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.3459687500001,"end":637.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":632.64096875,"end":632.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":633.7040937500001,"end":634.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":635.9484687500001,"end":638.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.41659375,"end":637.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.6653437500001,"end":641.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.85909375,"end":652.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.25971875,"end":644.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.78971875,"end":659.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.3372187500001,"end":659.9953437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.963,"end":34.122,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請陸委會邱主委跟交通部您嘗試好 請我們的邱主委還有林次長 謝謝來 主委我想要再確認一下就是說你這邊有表示說現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來台前假設我方單方面開放附路將造成龐大的觀光逆差"},{"start":35.106,"end":61.111,"text":"是不是?什麼時候陸委會的業務跟我們觀光逆差、順差都有相關?基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告那我們陸委會是要中整各部會對於他們這個議題的情勢的補給但陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼?我想根據陸委會的組織法我們是對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調"},{"start":64.413,"end":75.121,"text":"應對方案的擬定,透過國安的討論之後來做這樣的一個定調如果涉及到法令的部分,因為陸委會大概有將近19個部會是我們的委員"},{"start":79.565,"end":99.394,"text":"部長是我們的委員所以如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令他原則上要在我們的委員會討論完了之後才送到行政院那如果需要送到立法院的再送到立法院來所以我們是在做政策統合的協調那當然在政策統合協調的過程中各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會"},{"start":101.039,"end":128.391,"text":"我們就會召集各單位來做這樣的一個討論如果涉及國安的部分就會邀請國安比如像國安局也好移民署也好或者是相關的海巡署等等大概就是這樣的運作機制所以說現在是3月到5月底開放這個組團到大陸也是陸委會這邊同意這個是當做了政策暫停的時候後續如果有一些問題的要學處理的話那就有目的事業主管機關"},{"start":129.011,"end":138.699,"text":"因為這個是事務性的事現在又變目的事業主委員機關我剛剛不是講成事嗎因為有一個目的事業主委員他是負責執行本席其實最重要的是說"},{"start":140.584,"end":161.324,"text":"今天你這邊回應講是說有造成龐大的一個觀光逆差我們就想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差與逆差我剛剛不是講嗎所有各部會的政策評估最重點是說到目前為止我們自己的觀光旅遊產業本身為什麼還是一定要過來就是因為我們也要為我們觀光旅遊產業來發聲"},{"start":163.166,"end":182.807,"text":"對"},{"start":183.035,"end":186.379,"text":"現在講的是說政治宣誓來大於這整個政策的發展"},{"start":201.335,"end":230.348,"text":"所以說本席才會講是說當突然間說要片面的又要再取消又要再禁止我們的一個旅行社來去組團而我們用的其實很多時候你剛剛也講了就是說這是有什麼國安考慮等等的部分但是我們用的法令我們用的法令是旅行相關的一個法令所以說它其實是沒有直接的關聯的你等於是你們是想要找一個片面的一個法令來去限制我們的一個旅行業者不是嗎"},{"start":231.088,"end":259.229,"text":"不是啊因為在8月份現在看起來就是這樣啊在8月份的時候你如果好好回去看8月份我們的新聞稿的宣布本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過每一次你都想要本席在跟你回顧的是本席現在跟你講的是未來但你一直都在講的是歷史你一直都在講的是去年的8月但本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月今年6月的時候是要禁止旅行社在組團去中國大陸嗎對不對沒有"},{"start":261.696,"end":274.467,"text":"現在旅行社6月可以組團回中國大陸嗎?剛剛那個交通部不是講了嗎?你回答一下,現在旅行社6月可以組團回中國大陸嗎?對方如果明天宣布說他們來,那我們雙方就可以"},{"start":275.589,"end":282.094,"text":"主委我現在看得出來了主委你現在就在強詞奪理並且就不願意直接面對問題說實在話你沒有直接面對問題我覺得今天召委排這個專案報告非常的好"},{"start":304.913,"end":324.961,"text":"就是可以讓國人看到是說不管是我們的大陸委員會或者是我們相關的部會的首長都沒有直接面對問題講到什麼事情的時候就會無限的上綱不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面但最重要的是如果說沒有的話"},{"start":326.242,"end":334.459,"text":"現在很多國人前往到中國大陸還是會變成是說在地下的旅行團不是嗎?到最後沒有保障的沒有辦法有這種"},{"start":336.178,"end":355.627,"text":"旅行契約的其實受苦受傷受害的還是我們的國人不是嗎?我講第一個部分我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行是 沒錯因為這是國人的行動自由國人前往就沒有觀光利差的問題沒有觀光利差的問題但是旅行旅團是不會有觀光利差的問題你這樣子完全邏輯不通嘛"},{"start":361.79,"end":377.161,"text":"那我剛剛不是在跟你講嗎旅行業它兼具有對消費者的保護還兼具有我們的產業政策嗎來次長那所以這個會由交通部來主委我覺得這樣再跟你殉道下去會浪費時間因為你持續在鬧而且沒有辦法針對問題解決問題來謝謝次長謝謝好委員好次長我想請教在這段時間裡面有多少旅行業者跟你來做陳情"},{"start":386.146,"end":406.155,"text":"有沒有接收到,我有觀光,不管是我們次長這邊?有跟我們署跟交通部都有申請開過幾次會?我們2月19號有把業者找來,再做一次台灣的旅行業者?是那我們有算過說這個總共的這個旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎?"},{"start":407.168,"end":433.758,"text":"我們影響了多少家庭?我們有4000多家旅行業,但是超過50%的旅客有404家那現在他們最主要的問題是什麼?是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的但是6月突然又禁止了,現在沒有辦法收團那如果說有收團超過6月的狀況,那是不是要做取消或調整?那還有6月之後是不是遙遙無期?"},{"start":435.898,"end":464.147,"text":"因為現在剛剛我們的這個主委非常的完全不願意回答問題或是說完全的這樣子的一個glue的狀況就講我們現在明明是我們用所謂的觀光條例等等的來限制旅行業者而且那條觀光條例多嚴重啊那條觀光條例講的是什麼國家安全講的是有損害民風對不對那條的立法精神是什麼"},{"start":465.527,"end":476.415,"text":"那條立法精神是不是 如果說本席沒有記錯的話那條立法精神最主要是我們不希望臺灣我們中華民國的這種旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法"},{"start":477.686,"end":478.306,"text":"時空背景"},{"start":496.354,"end":521.627,"text":"這三個都是這三個一個是譬如說人家來台灣旅遊結果你損害了國家民運沒錯我們講說當初的立法精神情那一條回去查一下那是以發展觀光來講所以說我們不希望是說我們的有一些不管說不好的團低價的團或是說詐騙的團出去外面然後好像把旅客當成是這種肥羊仔沒讓人家覺得我們這個國家"},{"start":523.709,"end":535.024,"text":"對不對 不管是進來的旅客或是我們出去的旅客我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、消價競爭然後把人家帶出去之後然後結果有這種 譬如說"},{"start":536.124,"end":552.429,"text":"明明是低價團然後就到最後到外面然後又一定要買東西一定要什麼不然的話不放他走甚至還有可能有更危害善良風俗的這種團是 那個是第一項是那所以跟現在討論的是不是就根本沒有相關"},{"start":553.349,"end":577.904,"text":"包委員那個第二項是損害國家利益那損害國家利益就是拉到經濟跟觀光業的層面市長損害國家利益還沒有發生之前啊你講的狀況不存在但是已經實質的是不是造成很多的旅行業者的家庭經濟來損傷了我現在再請教啦什麼時候還會再跟旅行業者來開會"},{"start":583.698,"end":604.356,"text":"現在討論你的政策要改變要調整到5月底以前還會再跟旅行社業者溝通應該這樣講我們政策上都已經很明確這一段期間如果有善業的回應開放大陸的自由行跟團客過來甚至還有王國財部長講說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講"},{"start":605.765,"end":608.366,"text":"政策論述是3月1號到5月31號之間繼續開放入客團去大陸"},{"start":627.171,"end":631.372,"text":"市長 主委 待會去好好的瞭解旅行業者的心聲不要在這邊鬼打牆或是學學就如同昭偉剛剛講的 真的是學鸚鵡講話 謝謝"},{"start":652.839,"end":656.51,"text":"非常謝謝洪孟楷委員會諮詢也謝謝我們的主委、謝謝次長、謝謝副署長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}