{"error":false,"id":["149448"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149448,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149448","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T09:11:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T09:25:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbee5156567bfe17e7faaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a63fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:11:30 - 09:25:31","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":898,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時11分）謝謝主席。對於檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦、對於調查人員在第一線辦案的辛苦，我想本委員會的委員大家都感同身受，這是為什麼對於強力的支持檢察官跟調查同仁執法，實現社會正義，把這些壞人繩之以法，我們一向是高度支持的。本黨團針對檢察官要的檢察官助理，我們已經正式提案了，今天我跟所有在座司法及法制委員會的委員針對檢察體系，從檢察官、檢察事務官、檢察官助理、書記官，乃至於最基層、最辛苦的法警，針對人力全面的盤整跟調整，我們也提出了臨時提案。我一開始跟部長報告這件事情是希望部長能夠清楚的瞭解，我們對於檢察官、對於調查局的支持，因為執法的權力在他們手上，只有他們有效地發揮他們的權能，我們才能夠達到打擊不法的目的，但話說回來，如果今天有少數的害群之馬敗壞整個檢察官跟調查人員的形象，傷害人民對於司法的信任，我們絕對沒有辦法容忍。因此延續著上一次我們在總質詢的時候，我跟部長所請教的，檢察官跑到洗錢犯的招待所，後來洗錢犯跑掉了，因為警察問檢察官要不要留人，檢察官說不用，把他放掉了。我上次在總質詢的時候問部長，縱放洗錢犯的檢察官赴招待所，他面臨了什麼樣的懲處？那個時候部長跟我說，你們有送監察院，我後來請你們會後調資料給我，你們根本沒有送監察院，是監察院問你們問題的時候，你們回復監察院的問題，這樣叫做你們有送監察院？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，送監察院包括我們主動移送、包括我們資料送給它，因為我們知道它已經有案了、它已經在調查中了，當然我們把手中相關的資料，應它的要求提供給它，同樣達到在監察院處理當中了。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子叫做你們有移送監察院？沒有關係啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：我說送資料……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你要這樣子硬拗沒有關係……"],["蔡部長清祥：不是硬拗……"],["黃委員國昌：大家聽得下去、聽不下去，心裡都有一把尺。"],["蔡部長清祥：就是已經在監察院處理中了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，到目前為止，你們說法務部針對88會館有堅定追究到底的決心，你們說對於檢察官形象要用最高的標準來追究。請問現在到底追究了什麼責任？縱放洗錢犯的檢察官到底被追究了什麼責任？"],["蔡部長清祥：刑事責任跟行政責任。"],["黃委員國昌：行政責任被追究了什麼責任？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們已經依照相關的規定，該要送到懲戒法院接受懲戒法院處理的我們也送了，該送到檢察官人事審議委員會的我們也送了，所有……"],["黃委員國昌：送到檢察官評鑑委員會的決議是評鑑不成立，這件事情我公開批判過了，社會也有公論嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：有1件成立，1件不成立。"],["黃委員國昌：好，送到評鑑委員會不成立了以後，送到人審會以後呢？做了什麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為人審會是包括民選的及官方代表……"],["黃委員國昌：是，最後做了什麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：我尊重他們的處理結果。"],["黃委員國昌：對，最後做了什麼處理？可以把處理的結果跟社會大眾講嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：可以啊！這個是公開的啊！"],["黃委員國昌：最後做了什麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：評鑑委員會是個別對每一個不同的人……"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛已經說過評鑑委員會了，評鑑委員會就評鑑不成立，所以我公開批判，評鑑委員會說要送人審會，我現在問你人審會怎麼處理？這個問題有這麼難理解嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：但是人審會……"],["黃委員國昌：所以人審會做了什麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：每一個不同的人它有做不同的處理嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！針對評鑑不成立的那個人，人審會又做了什麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：你指的是哪一位，我們就告訴你。"],["黃委員國昌：王涂芝。"],["蔡部長清祥：它要求我們送給他們做行政監督。"],["黃委員國昌：所以最後人審會的決議是行政監督嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係！這樣的結果大家可不可以接受？這個要接受社會公評的啦！再接下來……"],["蔡部長清祥：但是有1位是送懲戒法院……"],["黃委員國昌：88案調查報告……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為每一個人的狀況不同……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以你不能只挑說一個比較情節輕微的送我們的檢審會……"],["黃委員國昌：對我來講……"],["蔡部長清祥：有的嚴重的……"],["黃委員國昌：我的標準跟部長說清楚一點……"],["蔡部長清祥：嚴重的也同樣有送懲戒法院。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你說清楚，兩個都嚴重啦！你們認為一個嚴重一個不嚴重，這個就是我的標準和你們不一樣的地方嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，我們是尊重檢評會，檢評會是有多數的代表，我們要有尊重，按照體制走……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我尊重檢評會的決議，檢評會的決議也要受社會監督嘛！剛剛我該說的話我不是都說完了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：那我會把你的意見轉給檢評會。"],["黃委員國昌：好。下一個，88案行政調查報告，我清楚地點出來了，公然說謊！我為什麼說公然說謊？刑事責任歸刑事責任，行政責任歸行政責任，你們從新北地檢署到高檢署所公布的行政調查報告說現場招待所沒有經理或業者進入，現場沒有服務人員。我後來去澈查了整個接受訪談的人，訪談的人很清楚地說，有喔！只要是檢警來的，都是小敏（郭哲敏）招待的，3個人服務，在現場倒酒、清桌面、點歌。你們行政調查報告竟然說沒有人在那邊服務，那顯然是說謊啊！這樣子的行政調查報告到底誰要負責？"],["蔡部長清祥：當時是責由高檢署來做行政的調查，這個高檢署調查的結論法務部的立場當然予以尊重……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個要請高檢署來回應，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然他們的調查由他們來負責任，他們也有書面對外面做說明了……"],["黃委員國昌：所以88會館案法務部堅定追究到底的決心，行政的部分該處理的要處理，所謂堅定追究到底的決心，現在高檢署行政調查報告出包了，你們的決心就是由高檢署來回應嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：它沒有出包，它是按照法律的規定、按照事實的狀況來做明確的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：我就很清楚地跟你講，它上面寫的跟人家在訪談時候的筆錄就不一致啊！現場招待的人都承認了啊！現場招待的人都承認，然後你們給社會的調查報告可以說現場沒有人服務……"],["蔡部長清祥：內容可以大家來討論……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的行政調查報告不會接受監督嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想高檢署也聽到委員的聲音，如果需要再深入調查，它應該還是可以來瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：我們接下來就靜待高檢署的回應啦！","im.B的案子2016年起法務部調查局已經立案了，我把整個歷程查完了，我清楚地列在上面，部長可以看，調查局局長也可以看，2016年法務部調查局就已經立案了，結果到2017年、2018年、2019年、2021年不斷有人去檢舉、不斷有人去製作筆錄，結果什麼偵查作為都沒有！被害人越來越多，雪球越滾越大，一直到2023年的時候才接手，由臺北地檢署繼續來加以偵辦，對於2016年、2017年、2018年這麼多的被害人跑去檢舉，也做了筆錄，完全沒有查出來，導致被害人越來越多，這樣子的偵辦表現，請問部長滿意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我也尊重調查局……"],["黃委員國昌：好，請調查局的局長……"],["蔡部長清祥：他們辦案都有他們的程序……"],["黃委員國昌：請調查局的局長，對，你們的程序啦！你們的程序啦！就是從2017年、2018年、2019年一路有人去檢舉，檢舉完了，做了筆錄，沒有具體的偵查作為，導致被害人越來越多，到2023年的時候才處理，調查局局長，這樣子的偵辦品質你滿意嗎？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，im.B這個案子我們受理之後，我們調查官有持續地在進行偵辦……"],["黃委員國昌：是，然後持續偵辦了多久？"],["王局長俊力：當然委員上面寫超過7年，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：我每一個列的時間都是我去查的，我一筆一筆列出來，那個都是客觀的事實，現在我只請局長評論，這樣子調查的結果，你身為調查局的局長，這樣子調查的品質及效率，你滿不滿意？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，我們同仁是有積極地、不斷地在進行，但是我認為這個強度可以再加強一點……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有……"],["王局長俊力：最主要是因為碰到一些困難……"],["黃委員國昌：我先提一下，有沒有積極地進行這件事情我建議局長把你們調查局調查的卷抓出來看就知道，到底有積極還是沒有積極。我現在要跟部長、跟局長講的是什麼？2017、2018、2019、2021不斷有人去檢舉、不斷有人去投訴，卻沒有實際的偵辦作為，一直拖到2023年，等到臺北地檢署偵結的時候，我把吸金的時間很清楚地給你們看，這是臺北地檢署公開的起訴書，從2016年開始不法吸金，雪球越滾越大，結果導致了什麼？導致越來越多人受害，現在這些受害人要一個公道，他們在問，當初為什麼不積極偵辦？導致越來越多人受害，面對這樣子的狀況，做為部長，做為局長，能夠一句我們尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦就可以了事的嗎？面對這些被害人，部長、局長有沒有什麼想說的？"],["蔡部長清祥：這個案子如果我們辦案同仁有任何的疏失或是不夠積極，我們會努力地改進，而且以此為例，希望每一個案件都要非常的重視，而且採取積極的態度……"],["黃委員國昌：我想不是改進和以此為例而已，這件事情需不需要檢討？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們可以隨時檢討任何需要檢討的事情……"],["黃委員國昌：局長，你認為這件事情需不需要檢討？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，我們認為當然是需要檢討，最主要因為它是一個新型態的犯罪，對於偵辦的人員而言，他也不是那麼熟悉這種犯罪的模式，所以我們也不斷地跟金管會那邊在聯繫接觸，然後有些被害人找來的時候不承認有被害，他說他們還繼續在出金，這樣子我們在偵辦上確實有碰到……"],["黃委員國昌：我只講一個最簡單的問題就好了，你們在偵辦的時候知不知道曾耀鋒是通緝犯？不會連這個都不知道吧！知不知道曾耀鋒是通緝犯？"],["王局長俊力：對，當然……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是名字一打下去就知道的事情耶！知不知道曾耀鋒是通緝犯？"],["王局長俊力：這個要繼續往上追、往上溯源……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，不用往上追，人家筆錄就具體地點名他，知不知道他是通緝犯？我只問這個最簡單的問題，要尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦我都同意，但現在偵辦告一個段落了，我們不能針對偵辦的過程拿出來檢討嗎？拖了六年多，被害人多了這麼多！被害的金額多了這麼多！剛剛局長說大家很認真、很努力。我同意啊！但問題是曾耀鋒是通緝犯這件事情調查局當初在偵辦的時候沒有辦出來嗎？"],["王局長俊力：他有改過名字啦！這個部分當然是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是只要罪犯改了名字以後我們基層的調查員就查不出來，局長，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["王局長俊力：不是這個意思，我……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我現在問題又回來了，請針對問題回答，他是通緝犯那件事情，當初偵辦的時候知不知道？太離譜了啦！我為什麼說太離譜了，那個主嫌是個通緝犯耶！拖了6年，沒有具體的偵查作為，被害的越來越多，連那個通緝犯都沒有去把他抓起來，讓他在外面跟政商權貴觥籌交錯，局長，你同意這件事情要檢討嗎？"],["王局長俊力：是，我同意要檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請下一位謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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好那送到評選委員會不成立了以後送到人審會以後呢做了什麼處理因為人審會是包括民選的跟官方代表那我尊重他們的處理結果可以把處理的結果跟社會大眾講嗎可以啊"},{"start":248.36,"end":273.919,"text":"那平建委員會他是個別對每一個不同的人我剛已經說過平建委員會了嘛平建委員會就平建不成立所以我公開批辦嘛那平建委員會說要送人審會阿我現在問你人審會怎麼處理嘛這個問題有這麼難理解嗎所以人審會做了什麼處理那就看每一個不同的人他有做不同的處理嘛阿對啊阿針對平建不成立的那個人審會都做了什麼處理"},{"start":276.055,"end":278.287,"text":"你指的是哪一位 那我們就告訴你王突之"},{"start":280.052,"end":307.372,"text":"黃副司他要求我們呃送給他們做監督行政監督所以最後人審會的決議是行政監督嗎對好沒有關係這樣的結果大家可不可以接受這個要接受社會公平的啦再接下來但是有一位是受八八案懲戒法院八八案調查報告因為每一個人的狀況不同所以你不能只挑說他一個比較情節輕輕微的那送我們的檢審會"},{"start":308.713,"end":332.504,"text":"對我來講啦我標準跟部長說清楚一點部長我跟你說清楚啦兩個都嚴重啦你們認為一個嚴重一個不嚴重這個就是我標準跟你們不一樣的地方嘛不是我們認為我們是尊重檢評會檢評會是有外界多數的代表我們要有尊重體制按照體制我尊重檢評會的決議嘛檢評會的決議也要受社會監督嘛"},{"start":336.004,"end":361.576,"text":"跟我該說的話我不是都說完了嗎我會把你的意見轉給總理會是 好 下一個 88案調查報告88案調查報告 行政調查報告我清楚地點出來了公然說謊 我為什麼說公然說謊行事責任歸行事責任 行政責任歸行政責任你們從新北地檢署到高檢署所公布的行政調查報告說"},{"start":364.238,"end":386.367,"text":"現場招待所沒有經理或業者進入現場沒有服務人員我後來去徹查了整個接受訪談的人訪談的人很清楚的說有喔昨天是檢警來的都是小明就是郭澤民他招待的三個人服務在現場倒酒親桌面點歌"},{"start":387.421,"end":395.487,"text":"啊你們行政調查報告竟然說沒有人在那邊服務那顯然是說謊啊這樣子的行政調查報告到底誰要負責"},{"start":398.413,"end":409.416,"text":"當時是則由高檢署他們來做行政的調查那這個高檢署調查的結論法務部的立場當然予以尊重那當然他們的調查由他們來負責任他們書面也對外面有做說明了"},{"start":419.759,"end":435.502,"text":"八八匯廣案法務部堅定追究到底的決心行政的部分該處理的要處理所謂堅定追究到底的決心現在高檢署行政調查報告出包了你們的決心就是由高檢署來回應嗎"},{"start":437.008,"end":456.705,"text":"他沒有粗暴他是按照法律的規定按照事實的狀況來做一切的調查那我就很清楚的跟你講嘛他上面寫的跟人家在訪談時候的筆錄就不一致啊現場操辦人都承認啊現場操辦人都承認然後你們給社會的調查報告可以說現場沒有人服務呃 內容這樣子的行政調查報告不用接受監督嗎"},{"start":464.107,"end":489.44,"text":"那我想高檢署他也聽到委員的聲音好如果需要再深入調查他應該還是我們就接下來齁就靜待高檢署的回應啦IMB的案子2016年起法務部調查局已經立案了我把整個歷程我查完了我清楚的列在上面部長可以看調查局局長也可以看2016年法務部調查局"},{"start":491.021,"end":496.507,"text":"就已經立案了結果到2017年2018年2019年2021年不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去製作筆錄結果什麼偵查作為都沒有"},{"start":505.885,"end":517.269,"text":"害人越來越多雪球越滾越大一直到一直到2023年的時候才接手才接手由臺北地檢署來繼續來加以偵辦對於2016年2017年2018年"},{"start":525.071,"end":535.3,"text":"這麼多的被害人跑去檢舉也做了筆錄完全沒有查出來導致被害人越來越多這樣子的偵辦表現來 請問部長滿意嗎呃 我也尊重調查局好 來 請調查局的局長請調查局的 對你們都上去啦"},{"start":546.587,"end":547.827,"text":"是,然後持續偵辦了多久"},{"start":578.787,"end":597.051,"text":"我每一個列的時間啊那個都是我去查的我一筆一筆列出來那個都是客觀的事實現在我只請局長評論啊這樣子調查的結果你身為調查局的局長這樣子調查的品質跟效率你滿不滿意"},{"start":598.552,"end":622.473,"text":"公委員報告我們通常是有積極的是有不斷的在進行但是我認為這個強度可以再加強一點有沒有我先停一下啦有沒有積極的進行這件事情我建議局長自己把你們調查局調查的卷抓出來看就知道到底有積極還是沒有積極我現在要看部長跟局長講的是什麼"},{"start":626.723,"end":650.099,"text":"2017、2018、2019、2021不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去投訴卻沒有實際的偵辦作為一直拖到什麼2023年等到台北地檢署癥結的時候來我把吸睛的時間很清楚的給你們看這台北地檢署公開的起訴書從2016年開始不發吸睛雪球越滾越大雪球越滾越大結果導致了什麼"},{"start":651.122,"end":678.036,"text":"導致了越來越多人的受害現在這些受害人他們要一個公道他們在問當初為什麼不積極偵辦導致這麼多人越來越來越受害面對這樣子的狀況作為部長作為局長能夠是一句我們尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦就可以了事的嗎面對這些被害人部長局長有沒有什麼想說的"},{"start":680.614,"end":697.699,"text":"這個案子如果我們行政辦案同仁有任何的疏失或是不夠積極我們會努力的改進而且以此為例那希望每一個案件都要非常的重視我想不是改進跟以此為例而已這件事情需不需要檢討我們可以隨時檢討任何徐長你認為這件事情需不需要檢討"},{"start":706.086,"end":723.374,"text":"跟委員報告我們認為當然是需要檢討那最主要因為它是一個新型態的這種犯罪那對於偵辦的人員而言他也不是那麼熟悉這種犯罪的模式所以我們也不斷的也跟金管會那邊在聯繫接觸然後有些被害人找來的時候"},{"start":728.616,"end":746.565,"text":"我只講一個最簡單的問題就好了你們在偵辦的時候知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯不會連這個都不知道吧知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯這個是名字一打下去就知道的事情欸知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯"},{"start":748.217,"end":771.82,"text":"這個要繼續往上追往上追沒有沒有不用往上追阿人家比率就具體的點名他啦知不知道他是通緝犯我只問這個最簡單的問題嘛要尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦我都同意阿但現在偵辦告一個段落了我們不能針對偵辦的過程拿出來檢討嗎拖了6年多被害人多了這麼多被害的金額多了這麼多"},{"start":774.788,"end":796.618,"text":"剛剛局長說大家很認真很努力我同意阿但問題是這藥封是通緝犯這件事情大局當初在偵辦的時候沒有辦出來嗎他有改過名字啦齁那這個部分當然是所以我們現在齁是只要罪犯改了名字以後我們七成的調查人就查不出來局長你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":798.271,"end":807.795,"text":"對 所以我現在的問題又回來了請針對問題回答他是通緝犯那件事情當初偵辦的時候當初偵辦的時候知不知道太離譜了啦我為什麼說太離譜了那個主嫌是個通緝犯欸拖了6年欸沒有具體的偵查作為被害的越來越多了連那個通緝犯都沒有去把他抓起來"},{"start":826.355,"end":829.138,"text":"讓他在外面跟政商權貴剛愁交錯局長你同意這件事情要檢討嗎?是我同意要檢討"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}