{"error":false,"id":["149467"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149467,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149467","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T09:55:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T10:06:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbed1a7eb991b06e7a93ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6a3b2363ea2ed9ac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:55:53 - 10:06:43","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":280,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（9時56分）主席好。我想要請王部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電的董事長。"],["主席：台電董事長請。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早。這個是台電的資產負債表，我們看到去年的資本是3,300億，今年度是4,815億，去年度才編列1,500億，讓你們的資本增加，導致你們現在不會破產，是不是？"],["王部長美花：是，這個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在累計虧損已經到達……"],["王部長美花：3,800……"],["謝委員衣鳯：3,972億，是不是？我們看到股東權益，就是淨值是1,194億，扣除……我還特別查了一下，核四帳面上的價值是兩千八百多億，現在股東權益也是好看的。台電面臨非常嚴峻的虧損，即便我們補充資本1,500億，在這個情況下，未來我們怎麼樣才不會讓台電繼續虧損下去？就如同剛才前面的委員說的，有一些民眾認為，再生能源比例這麼高的情況下，未來可能還是持續會有嚴重的虧損。再來，台電大部分的發電成本是來自火力發電，仰賴進口的能源。請問一下，不管是烏俄戰爭或者是以巴衝突，如果未來能源價格還是持續這樣子的情況下，會不會導致發電成本居高不下？"],["王部長美花：確實俄烏戰爭讓過去2、3年燃料成本增加非常多，今年開始有一點降低，只是目前降低的情形跟戰爭之前比還是在高檔，這個就是為什麼台電有提出要求，希望政府補貼虧損，這是第一個。第二個，再生能源的部分，事實上，現在各國都一樣，一開始都是用躉購，但是慢慢都直接由開發業者賣給民間業者，所以我們在太陽光電，現在賣給台電的大案場也都很快的改賣給民間，為什麼？因為你有這樣的再生能源之後，臺灣根本就是出口為導向，這些廠商面對RE 100越來越大的壓力，所以他們一直跟我們講，臺灣再生能源的發展還是要快一點，讓他們可以買到更多綠電。未來再生能源由台電躉購的會越來越少，離岸風電的部分，2025年併網的這一些競價的離岸風電全部都是賣給民間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我剛才質詢前還特別看了今年度的預算數，我看到你們去年度的虧損約2,784億，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：那是預算，你說得沒錯，2023年的預算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，然後……"],["曾次長文生：但是決算……"],["謝委員衣鳯：決算是多少？"],["曾次長文生：一千九百多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：一千九百多，那……"],["曾次長文生：當然這裡面有500億的政府補貼，所以我們編的預算是我們少虧損了三百多億，就是一千九百多億是因為含了500億政府補貼。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那今年度你們是不是還預計虧損一千八百多億？"],["曾次長文生：我們報院的預算是1,887億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以今年度還是有可能有巨幅的虧損，那請問……"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為我們在電價的調整上有一個一年調兩次、3%的設算，我們是依照這個來設算，同時在沒有政府補貼的狀況下，會虧損1,887億，所以我們也說要爭取……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那1,887億是有含調整電價還是沒有含調整電價？"],["曾次長文生：3%的設算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是調漲3%，可是……"],["曾次長文生：因為電價委員會過去在審查上，過去我們報預算的時候都是用3%在設算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是我好像看到很多人對於4月份電價的漲幅都是用10%來設算，請問會不會調整到10%左右？會不會？"],["王部長美花：這個部分就是今天我們提到的，假設兩次都只有漲3%，台電整年會虧1,887億，但是台電因為累積的虧損已經三千八百多億了，這樣對台電的財務運作已經產生很大的困難，所以我們才會說第一個希望政府來補助，第二個可能要合理的來調整電價，是因為這樣來的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是3%還是10%？因為我看到其他的部門都有調漲的相關試算，你們說你們自己的預算所根據的是3%的漲幅，那3%是兩次還是一次？"],["王部長美花：那時候是兩次的3%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那就是6%嘛！"],["王部長美花：因為過往在提預算的時候都是這樣的提法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["曾次長文生：報告委員，那個平均就是3%，因為4月調一次，10月調一次，都沒有逐年，所以兩次3%，其實反映應只有3%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以不是6%，是3%。"],["曾次長文生：對，我們的預算書一向都是這樣報的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說大家都預估啦，就是有可能是10%。目前我看到主計單位預估的今年度物價上漲指數是1.85%，我不知道這有沒有把你們電價漲幅試算進去，未來如果電價上漲的話，對於整個物價影響的層面有多廣？你們有試算嗎？"],["王部長美花：這部分我們都會把相關的背景提到審議委員會去審，相關的資料包括主計總處的資料、國發會的資料等等，我們都會彙整讓審議委員會去瞭解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那到底4月份你們預計……"],["王部長美花：因為我們第一優先是希望政府能夠補助，但是這就看政府補助的金額，然後來看電價的漲幅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實我不只看到台電，我還看到中油，中油110年度大概虧損590億，是不是？報告上沒有。"],["方總經理振仁：這個數字我不記得，不過112年我們公司虧損了180億，110年470億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是有什麼所謂的雙緩漲的措施？在2021年。"],["方總經理振仁：對，2021年沒錯，就是在油價的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問如果4月份漲電價，未來連油價的亞鄰最低價或者雙緩漲的措施都拿掉以後，會不會造成油電都要漲？"],["方總經理振仁：目前油價的機制是一個既定的機制，都按照這個機制在走，至於這個機制會不會調整，當然要跟政府的政策互相搭配。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為我看到主計總處又上修今年度的經濟成長率為3.43%，但是如果電價上漲，或者是未來油價也上漲的時候，這個經濟的預估數字會不會太過於樂觀？部長。"],["王部長美花：這個部分我們會就整個情形斟酌考慮，在油價的平穩機制下，亞鄰最低價在去年、前年中油確實是吃了很多虧，因為日本補貼非常多油價，那我們又說我們一定要在亞洲各國裡面是最低價，所以去年、前年中油確實吸收非常多油價，造成滿大的虧損。當然天然氣的部分後來降了下來之後，我們也逐漸讓它可以反映天然氣的價格到台電的部分，但是天然氣的部分，確實還有一部分是沒有漲的，包括民生的瓦斯桶和工業的LNG部分，目前確實是沒有漲的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來會不會漲？"],["王部長美花：相關的檢討，中油這邊會看整個營運狀況還有成本，作全盤的思考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果兩個都漲的話，對於整體的物價，就不是今天試算的1.85%喔？"],["王部長美花：至少像小店家用的桶裝瓦斯，確實是我們最優先照顧的部分，所以一直都沒有漲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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":"那時候是對兩次的3%那就是6%嘛因為過往在算預算的提的時候都是這樣的提法對報告委員那個平均就是3%啦因為4月調一次10月調一次他都沒有逐年所以兩次3%其實反應只有3%所以不是6%是3%對我們的預算書一向都是這樣子報的"},{"start":388.902,"end":416.123,"text":"可是我是說其他大家都預估啦就是說有可能是10%那目前我看到的就是說因為我們目前其他主計單位所預估的今年度的物價的就是上漲的指數是1.85%但是我不知道他這有沒有就是說沒有可能沒有把你們就是漲電價漲幅試算進去那未來如果"},{"start":416.903,"end":440.88,"text":"你們是電價上漲的話那對於整個物價影響的層面有多高?你們有試算嗎?這個部分我們都會把相關的背景到審議委員會去讓他們去審那相關的資料包括主計總處的資料、國化會的資料等等我們都會匯到那個裡面讓審議委員會去了解所以那到底4月份"},{"start":443.593,"end":471.313,"text":"因為我們優先是希望能夠政府的補助但是這個就看政府的補助的金額的希望他們可以給我們多少然後來看電價的這個漲幅的情形我看到我其實不只看到台電我還看到中油那我看到中油的裡面你們110年度虧損是這上面沒有大概是591億是不是"},{"start":475.855,"end":482.221,"text":"總有110年度這個數字我不記得不過112年我們公司虧損是180億110年470億470億嘛那是不是有什麼所謂的你們的雙黃獎的措施是在2021年的"},{"start":502.235,"end":520.527,"text":"2011年沒錯就是在油價的部分那會不會那請問會不會我們今天如果4月份漲電價會不會未來連油價的這個就是亞林最低價或者是這個雙黃漲的措施都拿掉的時候那會不會造成兩個都要漲"},{"start":521.673,"end":533.525,"text":"目前油價的機制它是一個既定的機制都按照這個機制在走至於說這個機制會不會去調整當然要看跟政府的政策一起做互相的一個搭配"},{"start":534.695,"end":549.923,"text":"對,因為我看到主計總署他預估今年度又上修我們的經濟的成長率是3.43%但是如果我們的電價上漲或者是未來我們的油價也上漲的時候對於這個經濟的預估數字是不是會不會太過於樂觀啊?部長"},{"start":554.654,"end":571.025,"text":"這個部分我們整個情形我們都會一起來做斟酌考慮那在這個油價的那個雙平穩機制的下面那亞林最低價在去年前年中油確實是吃了很多虧因為"},{"start":571.906,"end":585.3,"text":"日本補貼非常多油價那我們又說我們一定要在亞洲各國裡面是最低價所以在去年前年的部分中油這個部分的油價確實是吸收非常多造成他蠻大的一個虧損那當然天然氣的部分後來降了下來之後我們也逐漸讓他可以"},{"start":595.09,"end":603.057,"text":"反映天然氣的價格到台電的部分但是天然氣的部分我們確實還有一部分是沒有漲的包括民生的瓦斯桶還有工業的LNG的部分目前那個部分確實是沒有漲的"},{"start":613.826,"end":614.087,"text":"對於整體的物價．"},{"start":632.551,"end":632.591,"text":"好,好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}