{"error":false,"id":["149474"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149474,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149474","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T10:13:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T10:25:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe7a11658581848d7152afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a6856f357d07cd4c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:13:51 - 10:25:00","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（10時13分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好。本席與邱部長過去數度同事，也是老戰友，在工作的互動學習過程中獲益良多，也表達感謝之意。"],["邱部長國正：不要客氣，您客氣了。"],["陳委員永康：對於國防部的政策，從國家安全的角度，本席是全力支持，尤其是剛剛強調堅實的國防是國防安全的基石，但是人才的培養是一切的源頭，是重中之重，所以特別就人才培養過程中間提供一些建言。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：我們在國家安全戰略下面的軍事教育建設，當然以剛才部長講的，你有目標、你有方法、有手段，這個過程就不去細述，那麼，建議的具體作為中間，我提兩個建議。第一個就是現在在政府的論證中間，有些遇到不預期的狀況，往往引用一句話，就是SOP要調整，Standard Operation Procedure基本上是行政作業流程的一個標準規範，它不是一個動態的應變作為，美國把2018年的武裝衝突法──The Law of Armed Conflict在2013年修正完畢了，總共有1,224頁，這個可以提供部裡做參考。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：因為這裡面引述一個非常重要的，就是在軍事作為上不談SOP，而是談ROE，Rules of Engagement。當年我們從美軍把這個概念引進來的時候，它有3個不同的名詞，有叫戰務令，這是戰爭衝突之前各種應變授權；第二個叫做接戰規定，這是單方向的，比方講，在承平時期飛行員起飛攔截要保持多少距離，它是狀況不停，會變化，那要授權，海軍的艦船在海上對於有敵意的軍艦，保持2,000碼平行、1,000碼平行、可不可以去切船頭，這都要有授權。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：最後才是所謂的交戰規定。我們建議把ROE能夠納入我們的戰備規定，同時要經由法制軍法的討論，把它納入教學課程。因為在這個情況下，我們的官兵在第一線的情況下，第一個：承擔責任，第二個：他的上一級要授權，而不能回頭逐級請示。就像當年獅嶼一個小型無人機過來，回報小金門、大金門，一路這個過程，我想部長非常瞭解，這個是給我們一個過去的經驗，就是在面臨兩岸情勢升溫，但是目前狀況可控情況下，強化你的作為，ROE納入我們的戰備規定，這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：人才的培養，我用數字向部長提出一點建言。我們如果把國防教育底下所有的學校加起來，三軍官校、國防大學下的陸海空軍指揮參謀學院、戰爭學院、國防理工學院、政戰學院、管理學院，外加國防醫學院、空軍航技學校、陸軍專科學校，我們還有唯一的一所高中中正預校，我們總人數加起來有1萬3,593人。國立大學人數最少的就是國立海洋大學，它的人數是九千多人，但是我們的國防預算，我知道在部長任內也有逐年把教育經費再微調，但是目前我們的總經費只有25億5,900萬，海洋大學的人數比我們少，它有三十多億，關鍵在於我們國防大學所屬分了9個校區，所以很多經費是投資在作為上面維持成本。如果以人均預算，國軍軍事院校平均攤在身上的就是每個人188，這是以千做單位，和海洋大學相比，甚至只有它的一半。我們做出一個建議，因為現在教育部有高等教育深耕計畫，2018年開始，當年我曾經去向蔣偉寧部長替國防醫學院爭取卓越教學經費，也就是說，這個額度我想我們就同步做，一方面建議國防部向教育部爭取，另外我們也可以在教育委員會提出這個需求。因為所謂的人才培養經費，並不止於攤在學生身上的投資，包括要有好的老師，老師也要出去接受充電、受教育，所以我把這個東西提供給部長做參考。","最後，談到我們國軍聯合作戰的問題，各位先看這一張圖，是一張衛星照片，在軍中常常講我們運用聯合情監偵等諸般手段來掌握狀況的發展，在過去長年以來也都是用這個方式，表達肯定。但是因為現在動態的情勢變化太快，所以用單一的圖像，你看衛星圖，沒有經緯度座標，若我們用GIS校正套疊，各位看，這一張圖就是民航局的臺北飛航情報區航區圖，這裡面包括了訓練的空域、海峽中線，所以看到的就不只是衛星圖，還有民航圖。再下一張是我們陸軍所用的UTM座標圖，全臺灣包括外離島一共90張。我們再套疊海圖，所謂的運用聯合情監偵諸般手段，這是一個手段，但是你缺乏一個共同平臺。我舉例，我們國防部報導每天都有共機侵擾或者放氣球，這個圖已經套了四層，關鍵在於陸軍的UTM座標圖是五萬分之一，它是紙圖，未來我們會獲得美軍供售非常先進的武器系統，比如M142海馬斯，它的射程從30公里、70公里，甚至到300公里，在這個圖上是沒有辦法運用的，尤其現在是跨區作戰，我們還在用紙圖做連結。而海圖通常是五十萬分之、一百萬分之一；空軍的航圖甚至涵蓋範圍更大到兩百萬分之一。","因為不同的比例要經過GIS校正，然後用科技的方法把它套疊，將來一切的作戰圖像要數位化，這樣子就可以對應動態的情勢，做出客觀的判斷。目前所謂的C4ISR，是不同的時間、不同的目標、不同的位置、不同的動向、不同的意圖，但是透過共同圖像，可以讓指揮官做一個更客觀的判斷。以上這幾個建議提供部長參考，請問部長有沒有要回應的？"],["邱部長國正：我很感謝委員，委員講的問題都很深入，畢竟以前也是在國防單位服務很長年的，而且學長以往的工作態度等各方面，我個人真的是很敬佩。","剛剛委員所講的我都把它記起來，不管是ROE列入將來的行動程序，的確因為環境變化、狀況不同，也的確要同步做調整，不能夠咬到SOP就不變。我就拿上一回的金門事情來講，無人機飛越，他們還做出動作來，都我來扛，因為事實上我不把責任推掉，因為以前國防部有規定，你只要到領空上面，該打就要打掉的，但是我不怪部隊，因為長久沒有給他叮嚀，沒有納入演練的話，他還真的按照一樣要回報，等到回報完了、指令下達了，但狀況過了，這的確是很嚴重的問題。所以我們目前已經在做了，把各種狀況處理以後做一個規劃，有點像是ROE，先講好了，我不給你壓力，當然你不要扛這責任，責任我們來扛，但之前要把責任劃分得很清楚，這是第一個。","有關人力、人才的經費部分，的確當然有很多比較方法，對於人員，尤其設施，軍中有很多不足的地方，剛剛委員有講到，像是有些設施老舊也還沒有強化，我們會做一個通盤檢討，好不好？再跟委員做一個單獨的報告。另外，聯合作戰圖像是我們一直向來主張一定要共同，假如沒有共同性的話，到時候指揮掌握，你看的目標跟他指引的目標可能不一樣，所以這個我們也來強化，很感激委員給我們指導，我們後續把這些都持續推動並向委員做回報。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝邱部長，我們站在外交及國防委員會的立場，我們會大力來支持部長的國防政策，如果有些需要，也可以派員到我們這邊，我們做一些細節的互動與分享，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["主席（洪委員申翰代）：謝謝陳永康委員。","接下來請王定宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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operation procedure基本上是行政作業流程的一個標準規範那它不是一個動態的應變作為那麼美國把2018年的這個武裝衝突法"},{"start":109.236,"end":128.01,"text":"在2013年修正完畢了,總共有1224頁。這個可以提供部裡做參考,因為這個裡面引述了一個非常重要的,就不是去談在軍事作為上,不談SOP,而是談ROE。"},{"start":129.639,"end":130.54,"text":"戰務令接戰規定"},{"start":150.845,"end":150.905,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":167.515,"end":167.955,"text":"國防部長陳永康"},{"start":193.988,"end":212.039,"text":"他第一個承擔責任第二個他的上一級要要授權而不能啊回頭逐機請示就像當年這個私語啊一個小型無人機過來那麼回報小金門大金門啊一路這個過程我想部長非常了解那麼這個是給我們一個過去的經驗就是"},{"start":214.781,"end":214.941,"text":"人才培養"},{"start":235.749,"end":247.839,"text":"因為我們如果把國防教育底下這個所有的學校加起來三軍官校國防大學下的陸海空軍指揮參謀學院戰爭學院"},{"start":250.356,"end":276.25,"text":"國防理工學院政戰學院管理學院外加國防醫學院空軍航計學校陸軍專科學校我們還有唯一的一所高中中正育校我們總人數加起來有13593人我們對國立大學最少的人就是國立海洋大學"},{"start":279.124,"end":279.424,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":300.343,"end":322.188,"text":"關鍵在於我們國防大學所屬的有分了9個校區所以你很多的經費是投資在這個作為上面維持成本那麼如果以人均預算這個國軍軍術院校我們平均攤在身上就是每個人188這是千座單位"},{"start":325.162,"end":325.322,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":342.664,"end":365.818,"text":"蔣偉林部長替國防醫學院爭取卓越教學的經費也就是說這個額度我們想我們同步做一方面建議國防部向教育部另外我們也可以在教育委員會提出這個需求因為所謂的人才培養的經費並不止於攤在學生身上的投資因為包括你要有好的老師"},{"start":367.645,"end":368.165,"text":"各位先看這張圖是衛星照片"},{"start":388.939,"end":414.759,"text":"在軍中常常講我們運用聯合情監偵的諸般手段來掌握狀況的發展這個我們在過去長年以來也就是用這個方式表達肯定但是因為現在動態的情勢變化太快所以用單一的圖像你看衛星圖沒有經維度坐標那我們用GIS校正套疊下一張圖各位看"},{"start":415.868,"end":439.686,"text":"退回去這張圖就是民航局他的臺北飛航情報區航區圖這裡面包括了訓練的空域海峽中線所以你看到的就不只是衛星圖那有民航圖再下一張這個是我們陸軍所用的UTM坐標圖全台灣包括外離島一共90張再下一張"},{"start":443.372,"end":468.47,"text":"我們在套疊海圖所謂的運用聯合情監偵諸般手段這是一個手段但是你缺乏一個共同平台我舉例請把圖再反推回去這個是看最近我們國防部報導每天都有共機侵擾或是放氣球這個圖已經套了4層"},{"start":471.64,"end":485.473,"text":"關鍵在於陸軍的UTM坐標圖是五萬分之一他是紙圖那麼未來我們會獲得美軍供售非常先進的武器系統比如說M142海馬斯"},{"start":486.874,"end":514.468,"text":"他的射程從30公里、70公里甚至到300公里在這個圖上是沒有辦法運用的尤其是現在跨區作戰我們還在用紙圖做連結那麼海圖通常是50萬分之一、100萬分之一空軍的航圖甚至涵蓋範圍更大到200萬分之一所以因為不同的比例要經過GIS校正然後用這個科技的方法把它套疊"},{"start":515.808,"end":543.421,"text":"將來一切的作戰圖像要數位化那這樣子就可以對應這個動態的情勢做出客觀的判斷目前所謂的C4IS是不同的時間不同的目標不同的位置不同的動向不同的意圖但是透過共同圖像可以讓我們的指揮官做一個更客觀的判斷以上這幾個建議提供部長"},{"start":544.401,"end":558.777,"text":"參考,請問部長有沒有要回應的?沒有,我很感謝委員,委員講的問題都很深入,畢竟也是在以前在國防單位服務很長年的,而且雖然以往的工作,態度各方面,我真的個人是很敬佩,但剛剛委員您講的這個,"},{"start":559.938,"end":586.519,"text":"我不管是ROE列入將來的行動程序,的確因為環境變化,狀況不同,也的確要同步來調整,不能咬到SOP就不變。我就拿上一回金門的事情來講,因為無人機飛越他們還做出動作來,我還要我來扛,因為事實上我不把責任推掉,因為以前國防部有規定,到領空上面該要打掉的打掉了,"},{"start":587.119,"end":604.748,"text":"但是我不怪部隊,因為長久沒有給他叮嚀,沒有納入這個演練的話,他還真的按照一樣要回報。等到你回報完了,決心下達了,狀況過了。這的確是很嚴重的問題。所以我在吳牧群在做了,把各種狀況處理以後,做一個規劃。"},{"start":605.808,"end":632.736,"text":"有一點像是ROE,先講好了,我不給你壓力,當然你不要扛這個責任,責任我們來扛,但之前要把它嚴明,要把責任畫得很清楚。第一個,人力、人才就是經費,當然有很多比較方法,人員尤其是設施,軍中有很多不足的地方,剛剛委員有講到設施老舊也還沒有辦法強化,我們會做一個通盤檢討,再次跟委員做一個單獨的報告。"},{"start":634.456,"end":651.449,"text":"聯合專屠像是我們一向來主張一定要共同,假如沒有共同性的話,到時候指揮掌握,你看指引的目標可能不一樣,所以這我們也要持續來強化,很感謝委員給我們做的指導,我們後面持續來推動,向委員做回報。"},{"start":652.369,"end":665.681,"text":"謝謝邱部長,我們站在外交國防委員會的立場,我們會大力來支持部長的國防政策,那麼如果有些需要也可以請派員到我們這邊,我們做一些細部的互動分享,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}