{"error":false,"id":["149489"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149489,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149489","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T09:33:55+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T09:46:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe4a839ddf4855239e35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a6b517586607ff58365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:33:55 - 09:46:01","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":128,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（9時33分）主席、在座各位委員、各位官員，還有各位媒體先生、女士，大家好。本席有請陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：我們有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。主委，在一開始我想今天麻煩您所有的詢答照問題回答，不要答非所問，如果是申論題，請重點式的回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先第一個，您昨天有說到中國大陸的M503航線事件，陸委會有去溝通，本席今天給你時間，請你具體的說明是何人、何時、去何地跟誰溝通，請邱主委回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個，我想M503是交通部為權責單位，過去基本上也是由交通部先透過他們的聯繫管道去表達意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是交通部誰去溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為M503是一個國際航線嘛……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！對！"],["邱主任委員太三：所以當然本來就是交通部民航局……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以跟對岸的溝通……"],["邱主任委員太三：對於不管是飛安、航安或者是其他的航班管控。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以陸委會沒有去溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，這樣的問題當然會涉及到兩岸的安全……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為你昨天說有溝通了，結果溝通沒有效？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，昨天次長不是有回答了嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：昨天我沒問他，所以……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，他有回答這個問題啊！我也在委員會裡面跟大家報告說，原則上M503是民航局他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那如果是這樣。再來想請教邱主委，跟對岸我們陸委會有沒有想辦法去溝通？有沒有？請你回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：大概所有兩岸發生的一些議題我們都會有意見的表達，只是對岸……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們用什麼當溝通管道？"],["邱主任委員太三：我昨天就已經提到了，大概所有的議題，因為過去簽了26項的協議嘛……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，不用談那麼多，你一般溝通管道……"],["邱主任委員太三：我現在要講，基本上就是每一個協議裡面都有一個聯繫窗口，這是過去本來就建立的機制，我們現在舉一個簡單的例子，可能是黃建賓委員關切的如果農產品檢驗不合格什麼等等，他們的海關會發函給我們的海關說你到底哪一批……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，本席瞭解了。這樣感覺所有要跟大陸溝通的，我們陸委會都甩鍋給其他各單位……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：聽起來，因為到現在沒有感覺……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我講喔。所以感覺我們陸委會跟對岸，剛剛其實麥玉珍委員也一直強調，本席相信今天所有委員大概都希望陸委會跟對岸有實質的溝通、協調，能夠有實質的作為，但實際上我們的陸委會都沒有，所以民眾都覺得好像都是用「三民自」媒體在溝通，只有放話。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，不是都沒有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，請問蔡政府8年來，有沒有針對什麼事件派代表或密使去大陸溝通，或者邀請對岸派代表來溝通或討論兩岸事務？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個恐怕你要問蔡總統啦！但是我要告訴你的是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是陸委會主委，你就代表蔡總統。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，因為你剛剛在講蔡總統……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我說蔡政府8年。"],["邱主任委員太三：至少我現在要講的就是，我昨天其實也報告過好幾個事項，譬如說兩岸共打犯罪……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK……"],["邱主任委員太三：他們送了53個人過來，我們幫他們送了大概13個、14個過去。你覺得這樣的公權力執行需不需要溝通？什麼時間點要送到哪裡、文件要不要交換，這樣大概就可以理解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，瞭解，這樣我們瞭解。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們基本事務的處理大概都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是基本事務處理，但是兩岸的僵局一直是大家所憂心的……"],["邱主任委員太三：問題在哪裡大家很清楚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含今天連我們的國防部長也都說，他這麼多年來最擔心的就是兩岸情勢的惡性螺旋上升……"],["邱主任委員太三：那你覺得惡性螺旋上升是誰發起的？"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有問你，我在說明！接著本席想請教中菲在南海的衝突，3月5號，中共的海警船跟民兵漁船攻擊了菲律賓的海岸防衛部隊。請問主委，您認為類似這樣的衝突有無可能會發生在我們海巡以及大陸海警艦艇上？我是問你可能還是不可能，有沒有可能？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我沒有辦法做這樣的預判，但是我認為……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒辦法預判？兩岸局勢就是陸委會要預判啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：請聽我回答，我們的海巡跟海軍對於所有外界這樣的入侵，我們都有一個依法的SOP。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["邱主任委員太三：譬如說我們先有一個預警的地帶，還有一個回擊的地帶……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我瞭解。"],["邱主任委員太三：我想兩岸都很清楚知道，如果想要去侵犯人家的領海，他會遭遇到的狀況是什麼，我覺得這個雙方都必須理性的克制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你很瞭解……"],["邱主任委員太三：所以兩岸只有他們來侵犯我們，我們從來沒有去侵犯過他們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。陸委會必須掌握大陸的法規動態，請問陸委會有沒有購買中國大陸的法規資料庫，例如北大法寶、大陸法規之類，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我們都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有喔。好，我們海委會的管碧玲主委之前公開說，他說我方船舶遇到中國大陸的海警船要登檢，不要停船，趕快開走。請問管主委有先問過您的意見嗎？他在講這句話。"],["邱主任委員太三：我不知道他什麼時候講這句話啦！我想他自己一定有他的依據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以啊……"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我不知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您都不瞭解，所以同樣……"],["邱主任委員太三：這個是他的職掌，我……"],["徐委員欣瑩：在同一個執政黨……"],["邱主任委員太三：他的職掌、他的發言，我……"],["徐委員欣瑩：同樣在同一個執政的政府裡，彼此同儕之間都互不相通，表示管主委對陸委會很多兩岸局勢的研判也都覺得說陸委會好像功能發揮不了，所以他就自己來進行。所以本席要接著問你，大陸的公務船要求臨檢，如果不停船、快速離開，大陸法規制式規定的作法是怎麼樣？您瞭解嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想我剛才提到了，基本上海巡署他們有所謂的海巡的SOP啦，基本上依法業務的執行是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，本席的問題是如果我們陸委會，陸委會的職責就是要去瞭解對岸，而且保障……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們目的事業主管機關也要瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在沒有問你。保障我們臺灣人民的安全、權益，特別在像現在金廈海域，現在船越來越多，隨時十幾艘密密麻麻的，在你們只有批判對岸，沒有研判兩岸情勢的情況下，我們的漁民無所適從，陸委會這裡如果碰到相關的情況會不會去做溝通？尤其現在兩岸升溫，兩岸升溫國防部非常緊張，但陸委會完全沒有採取任何的措施去降溫，所以這一塊我們要請邱主委，我們跟對岸不要繼續這樣僵化，我們不要不溝通、不交流、不協商……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講完。我們多去溝通交流其實是在維護臺灣的尊嚴，也是爭取臺灣民眾的權益。"],["邱主任委員太三：非常同意。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果一直不去，其實反而是矮化我們臺灣的地位。好，接著……"],["邱主任委員太三：我可以回答嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我沒有問，我現在在評論。我再告訴你……"],["邱主任委員太三：那我可以回應一下你的評論嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我從週一到週三到週四，我們看到陸委會的報告，感覺陸委會沒有什麼角色跟功能，沒有看到想要改善兩岸關係的企圖，嘴巴說有交流，但實際上就是僵持，只有立場，沒有實質的作為。本席看到的是這樣，包含我們臺灣的藝人在大陸表態政治立場，我們看了都很不捨，可是陸委會只會要求或請我們的藝人要小心這個、小心那個，然後告訴我們的漁民警告這個、警告那個，所以大陸委員會變成大陸警告委員會、大陸宣示委員會、大陸意識形態委員會，沒有實質作為。","最後本席還要再說，我們新竹的一個鄉親，在110年11月24日，他的先生在大陸過世，結果要把遺體火化送回來，致電海基會得到的結果是兩岸完全沒有聯繫溝通的管道，沒辦法幫上忙。因為臺灣相關單位不能幫忙，民眾只能靠自己，花雙倍的錢，本來可能只要25萬，要花50萬，最後好不容易很折騰地把遺體送回來了，去我們的戶政單位除戶，除戶的時候說時間過了。所以民眾感慨政府執政無能累死百姓，所以我們看到……"],["邱主任委員太三：這我沒有辦法接受。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到陸委會跟海基會這樣子沒有功能，所以我們覺得要麼裁撤廢除、要麼組織整併，所以我們……"],["邱主任委員太三：我可以回答嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，除非我們未來有實質的作為，謝謝。"],["主席：好，主委你要回答嗎？給你一點時間回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝主席給我回答。第一個、我覺得臺灣有一些人基本上對於事實的是非恐怕緣起搞不清，到今天為止，我們的海巡、海軍從來沒有侵入過大陸的不管禁限制水域或領海，到底是誰來入侵……"],["主席：主委，這不是你的權責，對不起，你剛剛一直講說其他的業務權責你沒有辦法回答，那就不要……"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛一開始我就要回答……"],["主席：謝謝你，謝謝邱主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：誰才是率先違法的……"],["主席：我們把麥克風關掉了好嗎？謝謝主委，如果繼續要再這樣子的話。對不起，請你尊重召委。我剛剛說我會留時間讓你就我們質詢委員問的問題、相關問題來回答，但是你剛剛沒有，他剛剛是說是不是要裁撤你們陸委會或者是要合併，對不起，好不好？您剛剛回答說不是你們業務範圍的你不便在這邊回答，所以你剛剛回答的也不是你業務範圍之內的事情，好不好？謝謝主委。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有實質作為這是大家看到的。"],["主席：尤其委員都有權責在這邊做他的發言好不好？謝謝您，謝謝，謝謝邱主委。","繼續我們請羅智強委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":268,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-4","speakers":["高金素梅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","羅智強","王美惠","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張智倫","許宇甄"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,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主委在一開始我想說先就今天麻煩您所有的詢答呢照問題回答不要答非所問然後如果是深論題請重點式的回答首先第一個您昨天有說到我們這個中國大陸的M503航線事件"},{"start":40.407,"end":66.685,"text":"路委會有去溝通本席今天給你時間請你具體的說明是何人何時去何地跟誰溝通請邱主委回答第一個我想M503是交通部他們做這個全責單位那過去基本上也是由交通部先透過他們的這個聯繫管道去表達這樣的一個意見"},{"start":67.646,"end":82.214,"text":"所以是交通部誰去溝通M503是一個國際航線嘛對對對當然本來就是交通部民航局所以跟對岸的溝通不管是飛安航安或者是其他的所以陸委會沒有去溝通這樣的一個問題當然他會涉及到兩岸的這樣的因為你昨天說有溝通了嗎這樣溝通沒有效"},{"start":94.298,"end":94.878,"text":"想請教邱主委"},{"start":113.627,"end":133.669,"text":"跟對岸我們陸委會有沒有想辦法去溝通有沒有我們大概所有的兩岸發生的一些議題我們都會有這個意見的一個表達你們用什麼當溝通管道我昨天就已經提到了大概所有的議題"},{"start":134.87,"end":136.592,"text":"因為過去簽了26項的協議基本上就是每一個協議裡面都有一個聯繫窗口"},{"start":145.151,"end":147.273,"text":"所以這樣感覺所有要跟大陸溝通的我們陸委會都甩鍋給其他個單位"},{"start":169.295,"end":171.817,"text":"聽起來因為到現在沒有感覺沒關係我講所以感覺我們陸委會跟對岸剛剛其實蔓玉珍委員也一直強調本席相信今天所有委員大概"},{"start":184.127,"end":184.467,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":214.807,"end":234.611,"text":"這個恐怕你要問蔡總統了但是我要告訴你你是陸委會主委你就代表蔡總統我說蔡政府巴你我現在要講的就在於說我昨天其實也報告過了好幾個事項比如說兩位共打犯罪我們幫他送了13個人過來我們幫他送了大概13個還是14個過去那你覺得這個這樣的一個公權力的執行"},{"start":242.473,"end":243.354,"text":"兩岸的僵局一直是大家所憂心的"},{"start":261.052,"end":275.891,"text":"包含到今天連我們的國防部長也都說他這麼多年來最擔心的就是兩岸情勢的這種惡性螺旋上升沒有問題我再說明那接著"},{"start":276.912,"end":299.874,"text":"本夕想請教我們中非在南海的衝突3月5號那中共的海警船跟民兵漁船呢攻擊了菲律賓的海岸防衛部隊請問主委您認為這樣類似的衝突有無可能我是問你可能還是不可能有無可能會發生在我們海巡以及大陸海警艦艇"},{"start":301.255,"end":301.455,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":331.817,"end":333.718,"text":"陸委會必須掌握大陸的法規動態那請問陸委會有沒有購買中國大陸的法規資料庫例如北大法保大陸法規之類有沒有"},{"start":353.064,"end":379.358,"text":"有齁有齁好那我們這個海委會的管碧玲主委他之前公開說他說我方船舶遇到中國大陸的這個海警船要登檢那不要停船趕快開走請問管主委有先問過您的意見嗎他在講這句話我不知道他什麼時候講這句話啦他的依據我想是他自己"},{"start":379.958,"end":380.218,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":403.041,"end":403.782,"text":"大陸法規制式規定的做法是怎麼樣?您了解嗎?"},{"start":424.875,"end":432.499,"text":"本席的問題是如果我們陸委會陸委會的職責就是要去了解對岸而且保障我們台灣人民的安全權益特別在像現在金下海域"},{"start":451.767,"end":472.993,"text":"現在傳越來越多隨時十幾艘密密麻麻的那如果我們沒有讓我們沒有研判整個的情勢你們只有批判對岸沒有研判兩岸情勢的情況下我們的漁民無所適從那大陸委會這裡也都如果碰到相關的情況"},{"start":474.473,"end":489.443,"text":"會不會去做溝通尤其現在兩岸升溫兩岸升溫國防部他非常緊張但陸委會完全沒有採取任何的措施去降溫所以這一塊我們要請這個邱主委"},{"start":490.123,"end":506.935,"text":"我們跟對岸不要繼續這樣講話我們不要不溝通不交流不協商我先講我們能夠多去溝通交流其實是在維護台灣的尊嚴也是爭取台灣民眾的權益"},{"start":508.396,"end":537.038,"text":"但如果一直不去其實反而是矮化我們台灣的地位好接著接著我現在在評論我再告訴你所以我從週一到週三到週四我們看到陸委會的報告感覺陸委會是沒有什麼角色跟功能沒有看到想要改善兩岸關係的一個企圖所以"},{"start":537.879,"end":552.707,"text":"嘴巴說這個有交流但實際上就是僵持只有立場沒有實質的作為本席看到的是這樣那包含我們台灣的藝人在大陸表態政治立場我們看了都很不捨"},{"start":553.487,"end":581.338,"text":"可是陸委會只會要求或請我們的藝人要小心這個小心那個然後告訴我們的漁民警告這個警告那個所以大陸委員會變成大陸警告委員會大陸宣誓委員會大陸議事形態委員會沒有實質作為最後本席還要再說我們的一個鄉親新竹的一個鄉親在110年11月24日他的先生在大陸過世"},{"start":582.738,"end":599.878,"text":"結果要把遺體火化送回來致電海基會得到的結果是兩岸完全沒有聯繫溝通的管道沒辦法幫上忙所以因為台灣相關單位不能幫忙民眾只能靠自己花雙倍的錢本來可能只要25萬還要花50萬然後最後"},{"start":603.041,"end":603.181,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":625.255,"end":626.897,"text":"除非我們未來有實質的作為"},{"start":638.737,"end":658.547,"text":"主委你要回答嗎 給你一點時間回答主席給我回答 第一個我覺得台灣有一些人基本上對事實的是非 恐怕緣起搞不清到今天為止我們的海巡海軍從來沒有進入過大陸的不管境線水或領海"},{"start":659.227,"end":659.467,"text":"對不起 請你尊重周偉"},{"start":682.722,"end":705.997,"text":"我剛剛說我會把您留時間就我們質詢委員這個問的問題相關問題來回答但是你剛剛沒有你剛剛的他剛剛是說是不是要裁撤你們陸委會或是要合併對對不起好不好那所以你剛剛回答的是說不是你們業務範圍的你不便在這邊回答所以你剛剛回答的也不是你業務範圍之內的事情好不好謝謝主委"},{"start":708.529,"end":708.709,"text":"羅志強委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}