{"error":false,"id":["149495"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149495,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149495","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T10:29:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T10:41:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea619be2bac257d7a3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68974e5e652c6c4c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:29:40 - 10:41:57","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時29分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：來，部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天本席邀請國發會來做報告，他說電價是以照顧民生、穩定物價、節約能源，這三點你認同國發會的說法嗎？"],["王部長美花：認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：認同，好，我們繼續討論。電價審議委員會預計在這個月進行，換句話說，4月會有答案出來，現在外界預估就是要漲價，但是我們不希望成真，所以本席要請教，您所送給審議委員會的資料，有沒有要漲價？"],["王部長美花：他們台電在做相關模擬的時候，其實有好幾個情境，情境都不太一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：情境不太一樣，有沒有要漲價？"],["王部長美花：有要漲價。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有要漲價，你還笑得出來！"],["王部長美花：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：世上苦人多啊！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認不認同目前臺灣社會裡頭世上苦人多？有沒有？"],["王部長美花：政府對照顧民生的問題一直是放在心上，所以台電電價的調整……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有放在心上，也要實際放在行動上啊！既然你有放在心上，我們就繼續討論。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在所說的，送給審議委員會的台電資料是要漲價的。好，我們就來看，現在傳聞4月要有答案出爐，甚至連330度以下的級距也將要調漲，是不是如此？"],["王部長美花：這個我們都會用最相關的模式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教是不是如此？330度以下創下紀錄，民生用電要漲價？是不是如此？你們送的資料是不是如此？"],["王部長美花：我們送的資料有好幾個情境。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包含這個情境，是嗎？"],["王部長美花：也有包含這個情境。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，就是要調漲，那本席就要請教，在薪資沒有漲的情況下，現在通膨嚴不嚴重？您是經濟部長，通膨嚴不嚴重？"],["王部長美花：大家是關心沒有錯，但……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家是關心，你有沒有感同身受通膨的問題？"],["王部長美花：臺灣通膨的控制，其實政府已非常努力在控制這個通膨了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席再請教，政府努力有沒有成效？現在所呈現的社會層面有沒有通膨？通膨嚴不嚴重？"],["王部長美花：我們有通膨，但是通膨跟很多國家比起來，其實相對是控制得比較好……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對我們的情境，我們的通膨上漲、我們的薪資沒有漲。在這個時間，連民生用電330度以下都要漲電價，您看，您有所謂的照顧民生嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟委員講，因為這個部分的scenario很多，譬如說剛才委員講說，假設120度以下的漲5%，一個月是漲9塊錢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：委員沒有講120度漲5%，是您說的，請你耳朵要聽清楚。"],["王部長美花：委員是說，假設這樣的假設……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有講這個120度的問題，你為什麼頭腦會有這個東西出來？"],["王部長美花：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席問你330度以下……"],["王部長美花：如果是330度5%，委員有問330度以下的話，一個月是漲34塊，所以這個部分是要讓大家可以理解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，如果你以這樣的數字來回答本席的提問，本席代表民意是沒有辦法接受的。如果你這樣子的說法，也就是說，我只給你漲34塊，應該你們要接受，你的答案是如此嗎？"],["王部長美花：我不是這樣講，因為我的意思是說，對現在低的民生用電，它跟成本確實是差了非常多，我們只是告訴各種情境……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你剛剛一開始認同本席，也認同國發會昨天所做的報告是在照顧民生、是在穩定物價，所以否決了你剛剛的說法。既然你已經說原則是以這個方向，所以我們繼續來討論。","虧損不是一天、兩天，如果漲價可以解決，你為什麼去年10月決議是凍漲？是因為選舉的關係嗎？"],["王部長美花：不是，因為去年4月……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是因為這個考量嗎？"],["王部長美花：因為去年4月我們已經有調漲11%了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼過去10月的時候凍漲就沒問題，現在您喊出不漲價會有危機，是在恐嚇人民嗎？"],["王部長美花：不是啦！這個我們拿出來就是讓委員看得到台電現在財務的狀況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：決定電價的機制，你的考量到底是什麼？剛剛說了三點原則，是照顧民生、是穩定物價，而且是節約能源兼顧產業，你認同這三個原則嗎？"],["王部長美花：這幾個原則都是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認同這個原則，你怎麼可以拿人民當付錢的工具呢？"],["王部長美花：不是這樣子講。這幾個原則就是我們在電價審議會上，為什麼會有這麼多不同的漲價幅度，這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席請問你，你這個電價漲，物價會不會漲？"],["王部長美花：相關連動的指數，我們都會去跟主計總處、國發會確定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會跟他怎麼說？我漲價，物價不會漲，還是我漲價，物價會漲，人民會痛苦？"],["王部長美花：相關連動的部分，我們都會注意到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：注意到什麼？"],["王部長美花：注意到到底……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民眾都已經這麼苦了，你注意到什麼，告訴我們。注意到什麼？"],["王部長美花：這幾個因素，全部都是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有告訴主計總處，如果電費漲價，物價會上漲、人民會痛苦嗎？有沒有？"],["王部長美花：這個也要讓台電能夠穩定供電，在財務健全的情況之下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？請針對本席的提問。"],["王部長美花：這幾個全部都是我們在電價審議會會去考量的因素啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括剛剛本席所說的，你也會講嗎？"],["王部長美花：會，都會講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我希望你是真的會講。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是施政長期的問題，不應該轉嫁給我們的民眾。當然，你們有你們的成本考量，所以本席具體建議，330度以下的民生用電是不可以漲的，尤其在這個階段。有通膨、薪資不漲，讓人民這麼苦，在這個階段連民生都在漲，這是什麼政府啊？讓人民怎麼生活？超徵三千多億，部長，你很有魅力啊！你應該跟我們的行政院繼續爭取建構台電的平穩度，我們當你的後盾啊！這才是你部長應該要做的啊！我想藍、綠、白都會做你的後盾啊！"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你能不能答應本席，330度以下的民生用電不可以漲？拜託你好不好？"],["王部長美花：委員的建議，我們會反映。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會不會答應我？"],["王部長美花：我們會反映給審議委員會裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你跟我同不同調？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：照顧人民330度以下不能漲，在這個階段，你能不能答應我？"],["王部長美花：這整個電價的審議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我代表人民拜託你，好不好？"],["王部長美花：我們會把委員的意見轉告給這個審議委員會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你轉告！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還沒答應我，所以本席要再跟你討論，台電虧損的原因這麼多，台電的員工太辛苦了，你做為部長，董事長在這邊，你們要有擔當，這個是國家政策，不能拿人民來當提款機。","我要跟你討論的是，電力的結構，請問核電你會不會延役？"],["王部長美花：核電的延役其實有很多個因素。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最便宜的電價，你會不會延役？"],["王部長美花：核電的延役第一個會有法規的問題，第二個它必須要經過安全檢查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我你會不會延役。"],["王部長美花：它這個裡面的問題，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要有一個方向才有辦法去執行啊！"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：時空條件不一樣……"],["王部長美花：這個核電能不能延役，其實最重要是安全，這個安全的審查會花多久，要怎麼樣來確保……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有沒主張？有沒有朝這個方向請他們去研議？有沒有？"],["王部長美花：這個部分，其實前面有很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要開源啊！你要節流啊！你的節流，最便宜的，你會不會請他們去研議？"],["王部長美花：核電能不能延役……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：研議核電延役的可行性，你會不會？"],["王部長美花：核電延役其實最重要的還是安全的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問……"],["王部長美花：還有核廢料大家要有共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會不會考慮研議核電延役的可能性評估？"],["王部長美花：這個部分，第一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會？請問會不會？不知道答案，但是會不會？"],["王部長美花：因為核電延役的安全性是由核安會來審查的部分，核安會要確認我們臺灣的核電是安全的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你不要提到旁邊，我們實質要討論，我們就實質討論。"],["王部長美花：還有社會要有共識啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：開源、節流，不要拿人民當付款工具。開源跟節流……"],["王部長美花：沒有，人民……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：節流最便宜的是核電，你會不會……本席具體建議你，你去討論看看，去研議核電延役的可行性，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可不可以？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會做？"],["王部長美花：相關立法院的動態我們都會注意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席問你會不會做？"],["王部長美花：我們這邊都會注意相關的動態，然後相關的配合……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：注意相關的動態是什麼？現在的動態，我直接講就是ing了啊！會不會？"],["王部長美花：相關的我們都會注意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要開源節流，最便宜的電價，會不會？去研議好不好？"],["王部長美花：核電不是只有單單電價的問題而已……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果連研議都不願意，人民就是付款工具而已啊！"],["王部長美花：不能這樣講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你去研議，好不好？請你去研議，好不好？"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，我們再看到。核電是不是會延役，你們去討論，要開源及節流。另外，你的節流，再生能源，你106年到112年的4月底購電的成本都是高於同期間的平均電價費率，請教再生能源的價格要不要做討論？大家都有疑慮喔！"],["王部長美花：再生能源的價格有它固定的成本……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家都有疑慮喔！請問當人民有疑慮的時候，你是不是應當要去討論？本席請教。"],["王部長美花：它每年的躉購費率我們其實都會按照它的成本去評估出來，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：躉購費率，所以本席請教一段時間之後未來你購買價格會下降嗎？還是持續上升？"],["王部長美花：未來一段時間之後一定會下降，因為它會直接賣給民間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛也有同仁在強調，大家有質疑，我也不希望我們的社會有質疑，所以具體建議，剛剛我們的張啓楷委員也提出，請你將我們的再生能源購電成本這個書面資料詳實給本席，也給經濟委員會……"],["王部長美花：是，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我相信藍綠白大家都希望能夠清楚怎麼樣來開源節流……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以再一次強調在現階段世上苦人多，通膨，薪資不漲，我們的民生用電不可漲，不可漲！"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：接下來請張嘉郡委員詢答。我們在鄭正鈐委員詢答結束之後休息5分鐘，今天我們的會議中午時間就不休息，一直到會議結束，謝謝。請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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我們就來看現在傳聞說4月份要答案出爐甚至連330度以下的級距也將要調漲"},{"start":107.404,"end":115.029,"text":"是不是如此?是不是如此?請教是不是如此?"},{"start":115.029,"end":134.74,"text":"330度以下創下紀錄民生用電要漲價是不是如此?你們送的資料是不是如此?我們送的資料有好幾個情境包含這個情境是嗎?也有包含這個情境包含這個情境換句話說就是要調漲那本市要請教在薪資沒有漲現在通膨嚴不嚴重?"},{"start":137.02,"end":158.612,"text":"您是經濟部長通膨嚴不嚴重大家是關心有沒有感同身受通膨的問題台灣的這個通膨的控制其實已經政府用非常努力在控制這個通膨了本期再請教政府努力有沒有成效現在所呈現的社會層面有沒有通膨"},{"start":159.773,"end":185.345,"text":"通膨嚴不嚴重我們有通膨但是通膨跟很多國家比起來其實相對是控制比較好請針對我們的情境我們的通膨上漲我們的薪資沒有漲在這個時間連民生330度以下都要漲電價您看您有所謂的照顧民生嗎"},{"start":187.09,"end":187.29,"text":"委員沒有講120度的問題"},{"start":206.98,"end":210.302,"text":"為什麼你頭腦會有這個東西出來?本期問你330度以下?對,那如果是330度5%委員有問,330度以下的話那一個月漲的是34塊那所以這個的部分是要讓大家可以理解"},{"start":224.673,"end":236.847,"text":"部長如果你以這樣的數字來回答本席的提問本席代表民意是沒有辦法接受的如果你這樣子的說法也就是說我只給你漲了34塊應該你們要接受你的答案是如此嗎?"},{"start":240.811,"end":242.212,"text":"你剛剛一開始認同本席也認同國發會昨天所做的報告是照顧民生是穩定物價"},{"start":260.979,"end":265.381,"text":"所以否決你剛剛的說法你既然已經說你是原則以這個方向所以我們繼續來討論虧損不是一天兩天如果漲價可以解決那你為什麼去年10月決議是動漲是因為選舉的關係嗎因為這個考量嗎因為去年4月我們已經有調漲11%了是"},{"start":288.35,"end":312.569,"text":"為什麼過去10月份的時候他是動漲就沒問題現在你喊出不漲價不漲價會有危機是恐嚇人民嗎不是啦這個我們拿出來就是讓委員看得到台電現在的所以本期要給你一個如果決定電價的機制你的考量到底是什麼剛剛說的三點原則是照顧民生是穩定物價而且是節約能源"},{"start":318.133,"end":318.534,"text":"你這個電價漲,物價會不會漲?"},{"start":342.003,"end":348.887,"text":"相關的這個聯動的指數我們都會去跟主計總署跟國防部這邊確定我漲價物價不會漲還是我漲價物價會漲人民會痛苦相關的聯動的部分我們都會注意到注意到什麼注意到到底民眾已經這麼苦了你注意到什麼告訴我們注意到什麼有這幾個因素你有告訴主計總署說如果電費漲價"},{"start":370.595,"end":372.096,"text":"市政長期的問題不應該轉嫁給我們的民眾"},{"start":398.939,"end":409.9,"text":"那麼當然你們有你們的成本考量所以本期具體建議330度以下的民生用天是不可以漲尤其在這個階段通膨"},{"start":411.744,"end":432.194,"text":"新知部長讓人民這麼苦在這個階段連民生都在漲這是什麼政府啊讓人民怎麼生活讓人民怎麼生活超徵3000多億部長你很有魅力啊你應該要跟我們的行政院繼續我們當你的後盾啊繼續爭取"},{"start":434.775,"end":446.997,"text":"建構台電的一個平穩度這才是你部長要做的阿我講藍綠白都做你的後盾阿你能不能答應本席330度以下的民生用電不可以漲拜託你好不好你會不會答應我你跟我同不同調照顧人民330度以下不能漲在這個階段"},{"start":464.147,"end":490.808,"text":"你能不能答應我這個代表人民拜託你好不好我們會把我的意見轉告這個審議委員會你轉告你還沒答應我所以本期要再跟你討論台電的虧損原因這麼多台電的員工太辛苦了你作為部長董事長在這邊你們要有擔當這個是國家政策不能拿人民來當提款機"},{"start":492.571,"end":496.583,"text":"我要跟你討論的是電力的結構請問核電你會不會研議"},{"start":499.994,"end":515.524,"text":"核電的研議其實很多個因素最便宜的電價你會不會研議核電的研議有第一個法規的問題第二個它必須要經過安全檢查你告訴我你會不會研議它這個裡面的問題必會你要有一個方向你才有辦法去執行呢跟委員報告好 跟委員報告好時空條件不一樣這個核電能不能研議其實最重要是安全那這個安全的審查會花多久那要怎麼樣來確保"},{"start":528.912,"end":543.096,"text":"你有沒有主張?有沒有朝這個方向請他們去研議?有沒有?你要開源啊?你要節流啊?你的節流最便宜的你會不會請他們去研議?研議核電研議的可行性你會不會?請問你會不會考慮研議核電研議的可行性評估?"},{"start":557.825,"end":559.746,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":559.746,"end":559.986,"text":"請問會不會?"},{"start":559.986,"end":562.167,"text":"不知道答案,但是會不會?"},{"start":562.167,"end":578.174,"text":"因為核電的演繹的安全性是由核安會來審查的部分 核安會要確認我們台灣的核電是安全的 還有社會要有共識 開源節流 不要拿人民當付款工具"},{"start":579.398,"end":585.463,"text":"開源跟節流沒有 節流最便宜的是核電你會不會本題具體建議你你去討論看看去研議核電研議的可行性"},{"start":591.069,"end":596.532,"text":"可不可以?會不會做?對。我們這邊都會注意相關的動態。相關注意動態是什麼?現在的動態我直接講就是很ING啦。會不會?要開源節流。最便宜的電價會不會?"},{"start":618.772,"end":623.859,"text":"去研議好不好如果連研議都不願意那人民就是付款機的工具而已啊請你去研議好不好最後一個議題"},{"start":636.26,"end":652.676,"text":"我們再看到核電是不是會延續,你們去討論要開源跟節流那另外你的節流再生能源購電的成本都是高於你106年到112年的4月底都是高於同期間的平均電價匯率"},{"start":655.138,"end":670.177,"text":"在生能源的價格要不要做討論?請教。大家都有疑慮喔!大家都有疑慮喔!那請問當人民有疑慮的時候你是不是應當要去討論?"},{"start":672.642,"end":681.23,"text":"他每年的等購費率我們其實都會按照他的成本去評估出來的等購費率所以本期請教一段時間之後未來你購買價格會下降嗎還是持續上升未來一段時間之後一定會下降因為他會直接賣給民間"},{"start":692.36,"end":718.93,"text":"剛剛也有同仁也在強調大家有質疑我也不希望我們的社會有質疑所以具體建議請你將我們的再生能源購電成本剛剛也有我們大企劃委員也提出請你將這個書面資料詳實給本席也給經濟委員會我相信藍綠白大家都希望能夠清楚怎麼樣來開源節流所以再一次強調在現階段"},{"start":721.525,"end":730.182,"text":"事上苦人多通膨心智不漲我們的民生用電不可漲不可漲"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}