{"error":false,"id":["149496"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149496,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149496","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T10:32:36+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T10:41:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe8bbe20db31227f62afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6f8f891d2cf65ac865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:32:36 - 10:41:55","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時32分）謝謝主席，本席邀請唐鳳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，之前有一件事情，就是在暗網上面有在兜售應該是駭客取得的中華電信一些相關的機密資料，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我們已經派人去行政調查了。"],["林委員俊憲：我請問是不是證實確實有機密資料外洩？"],["唐部長鳳：其實中華電信它在公開訊息、重要訊息裡面已經有講，就是看起來確實是中華電信目前需要清查到底根本原因是什麼等等，我們已經要它限期交根本原因的改善報告，我們收到了馬上跟委員說明。"],["林委員俊憲：它不用清查，我們就看它賣什麼東西、在暗網上駭客賣什麼東西，大概也知道有哪些機密資料外洩，是不是這樣？很多包括國軍的資料，像包括海軍租用中華電信衛星的事情；外交部3年前跟現在斷交的諾魯資通訊合作會議是列為機密的資料，也都外洩；還有中華電信幫海巡署安裝衛星，這些資料全部被公開出來。也就是說，涉及的單位包括軍方、包括海巡以及國防部很多單位，其中還有一張圖──中華電信的電力圖、電信圖，查起來就是在總統府的對面，你知道這件事吧？"],["唐部長鳳：我有看到媒體的報導，中華電信在它的訊息裡面也有說明。"],["林委員俊憲：就是總統本人住的永和官邸的正對面那裡的電路圖都被駭客拿出來賣。現在證實有這樣的機密外洩，我想要瞭解的就是，中華電信在我們資通法的規範裡面應該算是特定的非公務機關，是不是這樣？"],["唐部長鳳：它是電信的關鍵基礎設施沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：對，它是關鍵基礎設施，它雖然不是公家單位，但是特定的非公務機關，也就是說，它應該是國安非常重要的一部分，尤其它基本上有很多的業務是獨占的，就像部長你剛剛講的，它是關鍵的基礎設施。但很可惜我們的資通法沒有通過，資通法本來是去年要修的，部長，是不是這樣？"],["唐部長鳳：我們去年跟各個地方政府討論，因為他們對於我們的調度權限有一些意見，所以我們現在是調修，我們部的版本已經通過了，現在正在送行政院。"],["林委員俊憲：當時我記得是位階上面的爭議，到底資訊安全是要直屬於行政院，還是應該由數發部來直接管理，我記得當時好像有這樣的一個……"],["唐部長鳳：不好意思，我說明一下下。我們現在在新的資安法明定行政院設資通安全會報，所以絕對是行政院，而且是國家資通安全會報，意思是說就其他四院或就其他政府都可以由國家資通安全會報來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：大概什麼時候會送出來？"],["唐部長鳳：我們這兩天就會簽到行政院，我們會儘快地跟督導政委、跟行政院協調。"],["林委員俊憲：這個非常重要，雖然現在是所謂的看守內閣時候，但是你事情還是要做。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["林委員俊憲：這個法案應該是去年就要通過的，它通過的差別在哪裡呢？現在公務單位都有設立資安長，公家機關大概都有，但現在很多民間單位，就是我剛剛提的，有些特定的非公務機關，應該要在資通安全法裡面規定它也有必要要來設立相關的資訊通訊安全的專責單位和主管，是不是這樣？"],["唐部長鳳：對，而且也加重它對於稽核、通報等等的責任。"],["林委員俊憲：對，它就要負起相關的責任，像現在中華電信就沒有，是不是這樣子？中華電信有設嗎？它有設立嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：有，因為它已經知道資安法會修到什麼樣，所以它其實是有這方面的編制。但是我完全同意委員，就是我們去年一直協調，包含調度權什麼，然後後來我就跟資安署說，如果沒有共識的就下一波，這一波趕快送這樣。"],["林委員俊憲：但是中華電信設立，有用嗎？這等於直接打臉中華電信而已……"],["唐部長鳳：我們是不是請資安署……"],["林委員俊憲：暗網上賣的，它說有1.7個TB的資料，全部都從中華電信裡面駭出來，也就是說，就像部長講的，你說中華電信已經有設立一個專責單位，因為它知道未來資通安全法的修法方向，它也有設立相關的主管……"],["唐部長鳳：也包含它自己其實是有中華資安，就是它自己的……"],["林委員俊憲：但東西還是被丟出來。"],["唐部長鳳：兩件事情先跟委員說明，第一個是說，這個來源是它關鍵基礎設施範圍還是不是、根本原因等等，我們再請它來說明……"],["林委員俊憲：2月28日就爆發這件事情，今天已經3月7日了。"],["唐部長鳳：對，確實，這是第一個。"],["林委員俊憲：今天已經3月7日了，所以數發部應該要趕快去把它瞭解清楚。"],["唐部長鳳：對。第二個，涉及國安的部分，我們也即時跟國安在通報。"],["林委員俊憲：我再請教你一件事情，資通安全法要趕快通過，相關的非公務單位、這些特定機關全部要納進來，他們要負起相關的權責，要建立相關資訊安全的機制和專責的負責人，我希望在這方面數發部能加快腳步。","另外就是抖音的問題，媒體有報導，抖音在過年以前就來了，抖音甚至還說，根據TikTok的網站說明，它在選舉前就已經跟中選會建立直接的溝通通報管道，就是讓中選會向抖音可以舉報疑似違反臺灣選舉法令，以及TikTok社群自律公約在內等相關內容；但是我們發現，選後在抖音上面大肆流傳，說什麼做票的假訊息，非常嚴重！"],["唐部長鳳：有，中選會即時通報，因為我們……"],["林委員俊憲：通報有用嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我們公務機關是不能夠連到TikTok的，我們為了這個還開通他們的電腦……"],["林委員俊憲：這個事情很嚴重，造成了民眾質疑選舉結果，你應該知道吧？"],["唐部長鳳：我當然知道。"],["林委員俊憲：造成了民眾的對立。"],["唐部長鳳：中選會通報他們……"],["林委員俊憲：嚴重傷害到臺灣的民主啊！"],["唐部長鳳：有即時處理的，但是我這邊要強調的就是說……"],["林委員俊憲：它廣為流傳，抖音有負起它的責任嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：要強調的是說，它不是普通的廣告平臺，它現在也被我們界定成危害產品，就是境外敵對勢力可能可以實質控制的產品了。"],["林委員俊憲：你有辦法管理它嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：所以剛剛提到的是……"],["林委員俊憲：我再請教部長，大家關心詐騙，現在詐騙最主要的來源在哪裡？已經不是臉書了、不是Meta了，是在抖音上面。"],["唐部長鳳：是說C to C直播賣東西之類？"],["林委員俊憲：賣假貨的，賣毒品的，甚至賣槍的，甚至一些色情，尤其很嚴重的兒少色情，都在抖音上面，校園霸凌也是最早從抖音開始，現在臺灣很多青少年會被抖音害死，他們霸凌同學以後拍影片丟上來，都學抖音的，最早以前都是一些中國的影片嘛，是不是這樣？臺灣也發生過好像2個還3個屁孩把一家很大型的超商燒掉，好像家樂福，把它燒掉了，筆錄裡面寫他學抖音的！"],["唐部長鳳：我先說明一下……"],["林委員俊憲：所以現在的一些色情，尤其兒少色情、校園霸凌、槍毒、賣假貨、詐騙都在抖音！"],["唐部長鳳：我說明一下，大型的網路廣告平臺當然應該要納管，那我剛剛也有提到，我們主動跟經濟部說可不可以這部分之後交給我們管，所以我們是願意的，這是第一個；第二個，危害產品的部分，在資通安全管理法……"],["林委員俊憲：我們希望能夠看到成果啦。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["林委員俊憲：你看美國國會現在就是針對抖音啊，對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：它也是說除非……"],["林委員俊憲：它要求字節跳動一定要跟抖音切割啊。"],["唐部長鳳：就除非TikTok不再被境外勢力控制。"],["林委員俊憲：對，要不然它就要查禁、禁掉抖音啊，歐洲很多國家也是。"],["唐部長鳳：這些我們都有注意到。"],["林委員俊憲：這些都是民主國家啊。"],["唐部長鳳：都有注意到。"],["林委員俊憲：為什麼它們發現抖音嚴重傷害的……我認為不是政治，是對於教育啦，尤其對一些小孩、對一些未成年的青少年傷害非常嚴重！"],["唐部長鳳：是，它作為廣告平臺跟作為危害產品我們都會來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：我們看不到效果，部長。"],["唐部長鳳：廣告平臺的主管機關還有電子簽章法麻煩委員支持。"],["林委員俊憲：我們當然支持啊，但是我們希望能夠看到一定的成效。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["林委員俊憲：現在大家對數發部最不滿的就是這樣子，好像臺灣成為一個沒有政府的地方……"],["唐部長鳳：我們主管的電商……"],["林委員俊憲：好像是個沒有法律的地方一樣。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：我們主管的電商什麼都有成效。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：林委員發言完畢，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時41分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.810343750000001,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.289718750000002,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.11221875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.51721875,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.68971875,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.351593750000003,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.74534375,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.94284375,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.140968750000006,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.11534375,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.27971875,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.48221875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.81096875,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.29596875,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.494093750000005,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.90284375,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.20534375,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.97659375,"end":78.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.31409375,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.22846875,"end":91.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.76346875,"end":94.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.32409375,"end":96.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.52221875000001,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.47096875000001,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.97721875,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.90534375,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.07409375,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.09096875,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.49971875,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.08159375000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.86596875000001,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.98346875,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.68721875000001,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.17221875000001,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.72471875000001,"end":125.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.32346875,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.50471875000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.05721875,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.26784375,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","s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next的時候但是你事情還是要做啦因為這個法案應該是去年就要通過的啦它通過的差別在哪裡呢現在公務單位都有設立所謂治安長公交機關大概都有啦"},{"start":222.421,"end":246.284,"text":"但是很多民間單位就我剛剛提的有些特定的非公務機關應該要在自動安全法裡面他也有必要要來設立相關的資訊通訊安全的專責單位和主管而且也加重他對於集合通報等等的責任對他就要負起相關的責任像現在中華電信就沒有了"},{"start":247.863,"end":264.498,"text":"主席有設立嗎?有,因為他已經知道自然法會修到什麼樣所以他其實是有這一方面的編制啦但是我完全同意委員就是這個我們去年就一直協調包含調度權什麼然後後來我就跟自然署說如果沒有共識的就下一波啦這一波趕快送這樣"},{"start":265.56,"end":292.03,"text":"但是中華電信設立有用嗎?這怎麼直接打臉中華電信?現在暗網上賣的他說有1.7個TBA的資料全部都從中華電信裡面駭出來的也就是說中華電信就像部長講的你說他已經有設立一個專責單位因為他知道未來自動安全法的修保方向大概也有設立相關的主管也包含他自己其實是有中華資安啦就是有他自己的資源東西還是被丟出來"},{"start":293.024,"end":315.564,"text":"所以這個兩件事情先跟委員說明第一個是說他這個來源是他關鍵措施範圍還是不是等等這個我們根本原因等等二月28日就爆發這個事情了今天已經3月7日了確實這第一個今天已經3月7日了所以你說不應該趕快去把它了解清楚第二個就是說涉及國安的部分我們也及時就是跟國安在通報那我再請教你一件事情"},{"start":318.396,"end":340.072,"text":"求指導案就要趕快通過相關的非公務單位的這些特定機關全部要納進來他們要負起相關的權責要建立相關的資訊安全的這樣的一個機制和專責的負責人我希望我們在這方面說話不能加快腳步另外就是抖音的問題"},{"start":341.192,"end":348.882,"text":"媒體有報導嘛,抖音在年前啦就過年以前就有來啦抖音的生日還說啦他"},{"start":350.58,"end":373.042,"text":"在選舉前就已經就在TikTok的網站說明他已經跟中選會建立直接的溝通通報管道向中選會就是說讓中選會向抖音可以舉報疑似違反台灣選舉法令以及TikTok社群自律公約的在內的相關內容但是我們發現"},{"start":374.562,"end":380.091,"text":"選後在抖音上面大肆流傳說什麼做票的這個假訊息"},{"start":381.229,"end":403.783,"text":"非常嚴重有這個中選會及時通報那因為我們公務機關是不能夠連到TikTok這個事情嚴重造成了民眾質疑選舉結果你應該知道吧我當然知道那造成了民眾的對立完全就是中選會都嚴重傷害到台灣的民主有及時處理的但是我們這邊要強調的就是廣為流傳對"},{"start":406.745,"end":425.452,"text":"豆音有負起他的責任嗎?要強調的是說他不是普通的廣告平台他現在也被我們界定成危害產品就是境外敵對勢力可能可以實質控制的這個產品你有辦法管理他嗎?所以剛剛提到的我在請教部長大家關心詐騙現在詐騙最主要的來源在哪裡?已經不是臨時啦不是Meta啦是在豆音上面說C2C直播賣東西之類賣假貨的"},{"start":436.412,"end":446.377,"text":"賣毒品的甚至賣槍的甚至一些色情尤其很嚴重的兒少色情都在抖音上面校園霸凌"},{"start":447.864,"end":470.169,"text":"也是最早從抖音開始的現在台灣很多青少年會被抖音害死他們就霸凌同學要拍影片丟上來都學抖音的最早以前都是一些中國的影片嘛是不是這樣台灣也發生過啊好像兩個還三個屁孩啊把一家很大型的那個超商燒掉用加入把它燒掉了他筆錄裡面他寫的他學抖音的"},{"start":472.042,"end":497.511,"text":"我先說明一下所以現在的一些社群尤其兒少社群校園霸凌槍毒賣假貨詐騙都在抖音我說明一下就是大型的網路廣告平台當然應該要納管那我剛剛也有提到我們主動跟經濟部說可不可以這部分之後交給我們管所以我們是願意的第一個第二個危害產品的部分在自動安全管理法我們希望能夠看到成果你看美國國會現在就是針對抖音"},{"start":500.112,"end":518.362,"text":"他也是說他要走智捷跳動一定要跟抖音切割啊就除非TikTok不再被境外勢力控制對 要不然他就要他就要他就要查禁禁到抖音啊歐洲很多國家也是啊這些都是民主國家啊為什麼他們發現你抖音嚴重傷害的我認為不是政治啊"},{"start":519.46,"end":530.408,"text":"是對於教育啦尤其對一些小孩對一些未成年的這青少年傷害非常嚴重是他作為廣告平台跟作為危害產品我們都會來處理"},{"start":533.103,"end":533.423,"text":"林委員發言完畢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}