{"error":false,"id":["149501"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149501,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149501","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T10:42:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T10:50:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe725c4cb484396ed33ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6dab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:42:04 - 10:50:57","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時42分）主席，我想請王部長。"],["主席：再請王部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想今天到目前為止每一位委員對於電價要調漲都是持反對的意見，我剛剛仔細看了你們的這個報告書，你解釋台電的虧損如此巨大，全部的原因都是歸於近年燃料上漲，特別是烏俄戰爭後的飆漲。那烏俄戰爭是在2022年的2月爆發，同年的3月14日在經濟委員會您還記得你是怎麼回應高金素梅委員的嗎？"],["王部長美花：可能委員再提示一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：我相信你可能不記得了，我放個影片，你看一下，好不好？你說我們與俄羅斯的天然氣的合約在今年3月到期，我們替代俄羅斯的採購方案談得不錯，比俄羅斯的還要便宜。那為什麼2年前比俄羅斯的天然氣、煤炭還要便宜的合約卻變成今天要漲電價的理由呢？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，當時的情境講的是我們的長約原來有跟俄羅斯買，後來沒有跟俄羅斯買，跟別人買，我講的是我們跟別人買的長約的價格比俄羅斯的便宜，是這樣子。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，戰爭導致全球的能源暴漲是事實，但是當時你說這句話的時候戰爭就已經發生了，而且你那時候是信誓旦旦地說我們已經採購到更便宜的替代方案，你要人民相信你，結果到頭來是一場空！"],["王部長美花：不能這樣講，因為這個是2月，後來的能源價格是逐月一直在攀升……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，然後今天你又要跟大家講國際的能源價格高的不得了，所以要漲電價，我們還能相信你嗎？我們還能相信你嗎……"],["王部長美花：當然，我們這些採購的數字……"],["張委員嘉郡：你會不會已經透支了人民對你的信任？"],["王部長美花：不是，這個採購合約其實都可以透明讓委員可以瞭解。"],["張委員嘉郡：我再請教部長，經濟部在2019年提出電價調控的三原則是什麼，你記得嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們的電價本來就都會注意民生。"],["張委員嘉郡：這三個原則是什麼？你不記得了，就是……"],["王部長美花：我們都會注意……"],["張委員嘉郡：照顧民生、穩定物價及節約能源。"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["張委員嘉郡：這三個原則今年變成五個原則，部長，你知道這五個原則是什麼嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們也會兼顧產業的情形，還有台電的虧損。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長也不大記得了，就是反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者付費。這個說實在對於我來說，我看了實在是也非常的難過，就好像剛才召委所講的，苦民所苦啊！真的不能用口號治國，今年新增的這兩個原則在本席看來就是我要漲電價、我要漲電價！"],["王部長美花：不是這樣講，這裡講的五個原則其實是長期我們審議委員會裡面在審議的原則啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想你也知道，本席來自於農業縣，我想要請問你，今年假設真的漲電價，會漲到漁業用電及農業用電嗎？"],["王部長美花：過往我們會怎麼樣去評估的情形我們今年也會注意相關……"],["張委員嘉郡：我可不可以要求部長，農民這麼辛苦，漁民這麼辛苦，是不是漁業電價及農業電價可以凍漲？您可以在這裡跟本席做一個保證嗎？"],["王部長美花：電價的部分都是審議會審議，委員的意見我們也會反映給審議會。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，所以你支不支持凍漲農漁業的用電？"],["王部長美花：這個部分應該由審議會來決定，不是我能夠決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，所以你是完全沒有主張嗎？你能夠照顧農民、照顧漁民嗎？能夠凍漲農漁用電的電價嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們對相關的民生用電都會很詳細地來考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長是不支持，不支持，所以你沒有辦法把握凍漲農業用電或漁業用電嗎？"],["王部長美花：相關的這些原則、照顧相關的民生等等，我們確實在審議會，所以臺灣在電價調整的時候都做非常細膩的考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：我看了你們這一本的解釋，雖然是2022年2月發生了俄烏戰爭，天然氣價格的確是大大上漲，但是其實天然氣的供需與市場因應的條件相對非常意外的好，所以在2023年天然氣的國際均價幾乎就已經回落到接近戰爭之前，但今天寫的專案報告是完全沒有呈現這個事實，這個部長怎麼解釋？"],["王部長美花：天然氣的均價並……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼已經回穩了，我們還要漲電價，為什麼？"],["王部長美花：沒有，它沒有完全回到戰爭前的，戰爭前的時候其實……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是接近戰爭前、接近戰爭前……"],["王部長美花：也沒有接近戰爭前。"],["張委員嘉郡：我真的是在這裡要求部長一定要苦民所苦，不要漲電價。假設國際能源已經回穩了，漲電價的理由就不復存在了，為什麼我們還要漲電價呢？"],["王部長美花：天然氣沒有完全回穩到戰爭前。"],["張委員嘉郡：我在這裡再強調，在憲政慣例上，部長，目前你們就是看守內閣，你們提的漲價理由並不充分，基於政治責任，看守內閣就不應該做如此影響民生經濟的決定，何況是之前就做了這麼多的判斷錯誤，所以本席在這裡要求看守內閣不得漲電價、不得審議電價，應交由新內閣於9月的時候再行研議。"],["王部長美花：現在其實政權是延續的，所以我們不認為都不能做事情，而且我們本來在的時候就應該……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再請問你，主計總處預估今年的CPI是多少你知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：它預估是1.85%左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得這一個數字是不是已經反映了漲電價之後的數字？"],["王部長美花：主計總處是說還沒有算。"],["張委員嘉郡：還沒有算。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：那是否這樣子會超過2%的通膨警戒線，有沒有可能？"],["王部長美花：這個部分就會看我們爭取補助的情形，還有電價怎麼調整的部分，這個我們都會……"],["張委員嘉郡：你不能夠拿民眾的稅金，這等於是民脂民膏來補貼台電的虧損，怎麼會用這個來跟我說你沒有辦法、你不能夠確定會不會超過2%的通膨警戒線……"],["王部長美花：假設政府不來補貼台電，對台電來講，它的電價就會漲得更多。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果你不能保證，你就不應該決定要調漲啊！臺灣現在到底是不是缺電？"],["王部長美花：沒有缺電。"],["張委員嘉郡：不缺電為什麼要漲電價呢？不是說……"],["王部長美花：這是兩件事……"],["張委員嘉郡：國際能源已經降價了嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，像委員講的天然氣的部分，事實上，現在的天然氣價格與戰爭前相比仍然是高60%。"],["張委員嘉郡：剛剛楊召委提到，到底核三有沒有要延役？"],["王部長美花：相關的這個部分，第一個，當然面臨法規的問題；第二個，核電最主要是社會要有共識，安全的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的主張是什麼？你支持核電嗎？"],["王部長美花：相關的部分都是社會要來討論的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也沒有任何主見，是嗎？你支持核電嗎？"],["王部長美花：電力的部分，有在運轉的我們現在都會讓它安全，但是要不要延役這個部分涉及的問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：你會不會做核電延役的可行性評估？"],["王部長美花：在我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：你支持做核電延役的可行性評估嗎？"],["王部長美花：在核電安全的維運，這個我們都會做相關的評估，但是對核電要不要延役的部分，其實有非常多的議題要討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：最後本席還是在這裡呼籲，能夠在看守內閣的期間，不要漲電價，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員意見。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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962,"text":"基本上呢 這樣就是"},{"start":105.982,"end":108.203,"text":"不能這樣講齁因為這個是2月那後來的能源價格是逐月一直在攀升"},{"start":130.936,"end":149.487,"text":"你又要跟大家講說國際的能源價格高得不得了所以要漲電價我們還能相信你嗎?我們還能相信你嗎?你會不會已經透支了人民對你的信任?不是 這個採購會其實都可以透明讓委員可以瞭解那我在請教部長經濟部在2019年提出電價調控的三原則是什麼?"},{"start":156.227,"end":172.392,"text":"你記得嗎?這個三個原則是什麼?你不記得了?就是照顧民生、穩定物價跟節約能源那這個三個原則今年變成五個原則部長你知道這五個原則是什麼嗎?"},{"start":173.172,"end":174.173,"text":"我們也會兼顧產業的情形"},{"start":203.292,"end":204.053,"text":"我想請問你今年假設真的漲電價"},{"start":222.004,"end":224.545,"text":"會漲到漁業用電跟農業用電嗎?我可不可以要求部長農民這麼辛苦、漁民這麼辛苦是不是漁業電價跟農業電價可以動漲?您可以在這裡跟本席做一個保證嗎?"},{"start":245.273,"end":250.357,"text":"電價的部分都是審議會審議那委員的意見我們也會反映給所以部長你支不支持動漲農漁業的用電這個部分應該由審議會來決定不是我能夠決定所以部長你是完全沒有主張嗎你能夠照顧農民照顧漁民嗎能夠動漲農漁用電的這個電價嗎我們對相關的民生的用電我們都會很詳細的來考量"},{"start":271.593,"end":278.396,"text":"所以部長是不支持不支持所以你沒有辦法有把握說動漲農業用電或漁業用電嗎相關的這些原則照顧的相關的民生等等我們確實在審議會所以台灣在電價調整的時候都做非常細膩的考量"},{"start":290.702,"end":318.607,"text":"我看了你們這本解釋雖然是2022二月發生了二屋戰爭天然氣價格的確是大大上漲但是呢其實天然氣的供需與市場因應的條件相對非常意外的好所以在2023年天然氣的國際軍價幾乎就已經回落到接近戰爭之前但今天寫的專案報告是完全沒有呈現這個事實"},{"start":320.047,"end":323.508,"text":"這個部長怎麼解釋?為什麼已經回穩了我們還要漲電價?為什麼?是不是?就是接近戰爭前接近戰爭前我真的是在這裡要求部長一定要苦民所苦不要增漲電價那如果假設國際能源已經回穩了那漲電價的理由就不復存在了為什麼我們還要漲電價呢?"},{"start":348.473,"end":350.515,"text":"我在這裡在強調在憲政慣例上目前部長你們就是看守內閣你們提的漲價理由並不充分所以基於政治責任看守內閣"},{"start":363.846,"end":377.798,"text":"就不應該做如此影響民生經濟的決定和況是之前就做了這麼多的這個判斷錯誤所以呢本席在這裡要求看守內閣不得漲電價不得審議電價應交由新內閣於9月的時候再行研議"},{"start":384.442,"end":394.888,"text":"現在其實政權是延續的那所以我們不認為說第一個這個都不能做事情而且我們本來在的時候就...我再請問你啊,足跡總數預估今年的CPI是多少你知道嗎?他預估是1.85左右那你覺得這個數字是不是已經反映了漲電價之後的數字?足跡總數是說是沒有算還沒有算嗎?還沒有算那是否"},{"start":413.597,"end":425.589,"text":"這樣子會超過2%的通膨警戒線有沒有可能?這個部分就會看我們爭取的補助的情形還有電價怎麼調整的部分你不能夠拿這個民眾的稅金我們這等於是民脂民膏來補貼這個等於是台電虧損啊"},{"start":433.917,"end":434.518,"text":"台灣現在到底是不是缺點?"},{"start":453.519,"end":460.242,"text":"沒有缺電那不缺電為什麼要講電價呢?不是說國際能源已經降價了嗎?沒有沒有,像委員講的天然氣的部分事實上現在的天然氣價格跟戰爭錢仍然是高於60%那剛剛楊委員、張委他有提到說到底有沒有要這個核電、核酸有沒有要研議?"},{"start":477.683,"end":487.371,"text":"相關的這個部分委員會第一個他當然面臨法規的問題那第二個核電最主要是社會要公視安全的部分相關的部分都是大家社會要來討論的問題你支持核電嗎?"},{"start":496.158,"end":519.754,"text":"電力的部分有在運轉我們現在都會讓它安全但是要不要研議這個部分是一個問題你會不會做核電研議的可行性評估你支持做核電評估的可行性評估嗎在電力的核電的安全的維運這個我們都會做相關的評估但是對核電要不要研議的這個部分其實有非常多的議題要討論"},{"start":521.175,"end":526.906,"text":"最後本席還是在這裡呼籲啊能夠在看守內閣的期間不要漲電價謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}