{"error":false,"id":["149518"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149518,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149518","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T10:55:14+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T11:04:42+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe62407b83ba7a73fc35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a6486b3851c3381e925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:55:14 - 11:04:42","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請陸委會主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委平常有沒有用網路搜尋一些資料？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上會，都從Google……"],["黃委員建賓：有用Google查過Google地圖嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，Google。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，你知道陸委會在Google上的評分是幾分嗎？1.8分！不過Google很好，它給你兩顆星。"],["邱主任委員太三：真的喔？謝謝啦！"],["黃委員建賓：主委，其實看了裡面的內容後才發現民眾對陸委會有很多不滿、很多憤慨，這個會後再請主委去瞭解。"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，替人民做事情要實在一點，民眾一定有需求才會去尋求相關的政府資源跟協助嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：是的。"],["黃委員建賓：本席發現陸委會在這快8年的時間裡面對大陸的政策就是「三中」：仇中、拒中跟抵中。剛好主委早上提到農業的問題，我們就拿鳳梨釋迦這件事情來談就好，去年臺東的釋迦重新輸往中國大陸，連農業部在質詢的時候都說不會放棄大陸的市場，請問主委，去年一開始恢復輸出中國大陸的時候，陸委會的說法還記得嗎？你還記得當時陸委會說什麼話嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然希望兩岸所有的貿易最好不要有其他的因素，能夠遵照過去的方式去處理。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們對所有的農漁產品大概都是這樣的態度。"],["黃委員建賓：跟主委報告，當時陸委會說這次臺東輸出釋迦的作為是選擇性恢復，這樣的行為對其他縣市的農民來講是歧視的對待，與多年前對臺政治性的採購如出一轍，利用經濟利益對臺灣進行分化及統戰，而且批評陸方這種陳舊的政治操作手法只會使兩岸民眾的心理隔閡、漸行漸遠。農業部的代理部長陳駿季也表示，我們樂見臺灣優良的水果外銷，且強調不會放棄中國的市場，希望能透過海峽兩岸檢疫平臺來重啟對話，訂定符合國際的檢驗標準，而不是由地方政府來代行。這是本席在總質詢的時候問的問題。主委，先前陸委會說選擇性恢復臺東釋迦輸出的作法對臺灣其他縣市的農民是歧視對待，這個事情你認同嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，基本上我們期待大陸對臺灣的貿易政策就按照過去就好了。"],["黃委員建賓：主委、主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：它這樣繞過去，它為什麼只選擇幾個縣市？"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，你這樣講是不能用選擇性嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，你是否有瞭解……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為所有的貿易基本上大家都能一致性。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我跟你說一個數據，民國110年全臺灣的鳳梨釋迦總產量是2,381萬490公斤，臺東縣政府收成的鳳梨釋迦是2,335萬6,037公斤，占全臺的98%，9成的釋迦都是臺東的，哪裡來的選擇性？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，我想委員應該很清楚它為什麼要特別選定臺東，除了你講的……"],["黃委員建賓：沒有，以水果來看嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：臺東占9成這樣的一個生產性，但是其他縣市也有啊！這樣不是對其他縣市……"],["黃委員建賓：9成都是臺東，所以是選擇對臺東比較好？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，你剛剛提到臺東占9成，我大概可以理解、可以接受，但問題是其他縣市還是有，對不對？"],["黃委員建賓：主委，這就是仇中啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個，它的選擇只有那幾個所謂的集散場，坦白講，這應該不需要再去選擇，只要是政府檢驗合格的應該都可以。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我們再談到農業部代理部長陳駿季所說的，希望透過海峽兩岸檢疫平臺重啟對話，這不是由臺東縣政府，不是由地方來代為執行，主委，這樣農業部部長是不是在指責陸委會失責？"],["邱主任委員太三：什麼？"],["黃委員建賓：為什麼是由臺東縣政府跟對岸來談，而不是兩岸來對談？這是不是在指責陸委會失責？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以大陸基本上應該是要跟我們，其實不是跟陸委會啦，委員，有關於農產品的檢疫，雙方簽有一個協議，它其實是由對岸的海關總署跟臺灣的……"],["黃委員建賓：這個協議應該是ECFA的5項協議嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是、不是。"],["黃委員建賓：ECFA裡面不是有……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們兩岸的各種事務有簽了大概26個協議，有關農漁產品的檢疫。"],["黃委員建賓：是，如果我們有貿易爭端的時候，是不是有一個協調爭議的機制可以處理？"],["邱主任委員太三：如果是屬於ECFA的，有 ECFA的處理機制，如果是檢疫的，有檢疫的處理機制，就是按照那26項，我再提供委員那26項協議，它各有各的處理機制。原則上是權責機關有一個對口，我們的權責機關會發文給對岸，對岸大概也會發文給我們。"],["黃委員建賓：這個最終結果還是由臺東縣政府去談嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：那是因為它選擇臺東縣政府。"],["黃委員建賓：那我們有去找他們談過嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有表達希望能夠透過……"],["黃委員建賓：那知道問題出在哪裡嗎？結果後來最簡單的問題就是從微生物檢驗的粉介殼蟲這件事情，就從這個部分解決而已。好，主委，我們不要……"],["邱主任委員太三：從國台辦的說法，當然我們知道它是有政治上的意涵。"],["黃委員建賓：但我還是強調一開始講的，我們還是希望能夠透過協議的機制來解決貿易爭端。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，很好。"],["黃委員建賓：好，這個問題我們先到這邊，我繼續要講的是，主委其實之前當過我們的檢察官對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：去年選舉期間我們不是有很多民眾到大陸去遊玩嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：他們回來之後有很多人都被帶去偵訊，就是村里長都被偵訊嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：後來成罪被判刑的有多少件？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個恐怕要問法務部，因為這件事情……"],["黃委員建賓：比例多嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不知道，因為我現在不是當法務部長，就我的瞭解，當時的緣起應該是法務部的某個單位發覺有所謂招待的這種情事出現，所以才會提。"],["黃委員建賓：回來之後成案的應該不多啦，我記得應該不多，多的話新聞應該就會報很多。主委，這個會後你再自己瞭解一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：選完大概就低調處理。"],["黃委員建賓：我只是想要表達，如果臺灣人去大陸玩回來就要被偵訊，這個是不是拒中？另外，我也建議啦，如果因為這樣子，我們是不是要訂定一個臺灣人到大陸旅遊的指南？你可以去哪邊玩，不能去哪邊玩，你可以跟誰接觸，不能跟哪邊接觸，不然就乾脆直接宣布我們不要再去大陸，這樣是不是比較好？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為憲法保障人民遷徙移動的自由，所以我們沒有辦法去規範。"],["黃委員建賓：這樣出去玩的人會緊張啊！他回來之後……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們會提醒，就像您剛剛提到的，我們的網站確實真的要加強，我們會提醒赴陸的時候大概要注意哪些事。"],["黃委員建賓：對嘛，因為你看，回來就被調查站叫去偵訊，他只是去大陸玩，回來就被偵訊，所以我還是提醒主委啦，陸委會應該是最瞭解中國大陸的人，主委你還曾經擔任過民進黨兩岸協議監督條例小組的召集人，我們在這次的報告裡面沒有看到要進行兩岸協議監督條例的立法，每次問到這些問題你們就會說已經有修法了，我想我們修法的部分是政治協議，不是攸關民生經濟。主委，你會不會繼續推動相關的立法，針對民生經濟的問題？"],["邱主任委員太三：恐怕不是只有單純的政治因素，只要是有政治性影響的協議都包括在裡面。第二個大概就是如果有涉及法律或法令修改的，也要再到立法院來，那個當時的機制是這樣。當然，政治性的協議就更繁瑣了，後面的程序就更多了。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委的說明，本席還是堅持兩岸的互動就是要公開透明，而且要站在一個建立法制的基礎上面，所以推動兩岸協議監督條例是刻不容緩的重大政策，請主委再加油，也可以解決我們未來兩岸的問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：好，我們再來檢視過去所有的狀況，是不是如委員建議的有修法的必要，我們來檢視一下。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","現在請建賓委員暫代一下主席的位置，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：現在我們請高金素梅召集委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":268,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-4","speakers":["高金素梅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","羅智強","王美惠","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張智倫","許宇甄"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.81909375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.52659375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.762218750000002,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.926593750000002,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.93909375,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.23784375,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.55784375,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.127218750000004,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.70909375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.438468750000006,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.282218750000006,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.48471875,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.205968750000004,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.53471875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.87971875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.11596875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.73034375,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.65346875,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.12534375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.76596875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.42784375000001,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.25034375,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.91221875000001,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.55596875,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.99846875,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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很多的憤慨那這個會後再請主委去了解不過可以看到 主委替林明做事情比較實在民眾一定有需求才會去尋求相關政府的資源跟協助 是的"},{"start":56.64,"end":77.226,"text":"本席在這八年裡面發現其實我們入會這八年都來這快八年的時間對台流政策有三宗籌中、聚中跟抵中跟主委來剛好主委早上有提到農業的問題我們就拿鳳梨釋迦這件事情來談就好"},{"start":79.468,"end":97.135,"text":"我們去年臺東縣政府臺東的釋迦重新輸往中國大陸那連我們農業部在質詢的時候都說齁他不會放棄大陸的市場我想要請問主委去年一開始恢復輸出中國大陸的時候陸委會的說法還記得嗎你還可以同時我們會說什麼"},{"start":100.411,"end":127.629,"text":"我們當然希望說兩岸的所有的貿易最好不要有其他的因素能夠遵照過去的模式去處理所有的農漁產品我們大概都是這樣的一個態度跟主委報告當時陸委會說這一次的台中輸出釋迦的作為是選擇性恢復這樣的行為對其他縣市的農民來講是歧視的對待"},{"start":129.073,"end":147.197,"text":"一多年前對臺政治性的採購如出一策利用經濟利益對臺灣進行分化及統戰而且批評陸方這種成就的政策操作手法只會使兩岸的民眾心理隔閡漸行漸遠我們陸夥的台立的部長陳俊濟也表示說我們樂見臺灣優良的水果外銷也強調不會放棄中國的市場"},{"start":157.279,"end":171.771,"text":"希望透過海峽兩岸檢疫平台重啟對話,定定符合國際檢驗標準,而不是由地方政府代行。這是本席在總質詢時問的問題。選擇性恢復台中市下的做法,對台灣其他管治的農民是歧視對待。這個事情你認同嗎?"},{"start":181.798,"end":182.779,"text":"主委我跟您說一個數據"},{"start":202.947,"end":219.756,"text":"如果110年全台灣的鳳梨施加的總產量是2381490公斤然後台東縣政府收成的鳳梨施加是23356037公斤它佔了全台的98%高盛的社區都是台東對來的選擇性"},{"start":233.237,"end":253.494,"text":"沒有啦,委員,我想委員應該很清楚嘛那他為什麼要特別選定台東因為以水果來看嘛台東佔了九成的這樣的一個生產性但是其他縣市也有啊九成都是台東所以是選擇台東比較好台東佔九成我大概可以理解可以接受但是問題其他縣市還是有啊"},{"start":255.728,"end":256.068,"text":"農業代理部長陳俊基說的"},{"start":275.678,"end":288.87,"text":"這個希望透過海峽兩岸協議平台重啟對話不是由台東縣政府不是由地方來待會之前主委江文部長是不是會指責我們陸委會指責陸委會施責為什麼是由台東縣政府跟對岸來談而不是兩岸來對談"},{"start":292.914,"end":297.958,"text":"道路基本上應該是要跟我們其實不是跟陸委會有關於農產品的檢疫雙方簽了一個協議他其實是由對岸的海關總署"},{"start":309.718,"end":314.962,"text":"我們兩岸各種的事務有簽了大概26個協議如果是屬於ECFA的有ECFA的處理機制如果是檢疫的有檢疫的處理機制"},{"start":330.592,"end":341.699,"text":"就是說按照26項我再跟委員做提供那個26項協議他各有他的處理機制那原則上是由權責機關有一個對口我們的權責機關會發文給對岸那對岸大概也會發文給我們對最終結果還是董事長跟我們去談嗎"},{"start":352.952,"end":379.409,"text":"那是因為他選擇臺東縣政府那我們有去找他們談過嗎?我們有表達希望能夠透過...阿剛才問題出在哪裡?結果後來最簡單的問題就是說從維生物檢驗的粉芥和蟲這件事情就從這個部分解決而已好主委從國大辦的說法當然我們知道他是在政治上的意涵但我們還是還是強烈從一開始講的我們還是希望能夠透過我們有協議的機制來解決我們的貿易爭端很好"},{"start":383.829,"end":402.223,"text":"好,我們這個問題先到這邊,我繼續講的就是說主委你,主委之前擔過我們的檢察官對不對?對所以我們去年選舉期間不是有很多民眾到大陸去遊玩嗎?對那回來之後很多人都被帶去徵訊嗎?嗯那後來我們這個陳翠被判刑有多少件?"},{"start":407.421,"end":413.667,"text":"這個恐怕要問法務部因為這件事情我現在不是當法務部長那我的了解當時的緣起應該是法務部的某個單位他們發覺有這個所謂招待的這種情勢出現"},{"start":424.079,"end":424.179,"text":"另外："},{"start":443.069,"end":455.949,"text":"如果因為這樣子我也建議啦我們今天我們是要訂定一個臺灣人到大陸旅遊指南你可以去哪邊玩不能去哪邊玩你可以跟誰接觸不能去哪邊接觸不然就乾脆直接宣佈我們不要再去大陸了這樣是不是比較好"},{"start":457.156,"end":485.458,"text":"因為憲法保障人民遷徙移動的自由我們會提醒就像您剛剛提到我們網站真的確實要加強但是我們大概會提醒復入的時候大概要注意啦對啦因為委員回來回來就被調查要去徵訊我只是去大陸玩回來被徵訊所以我想還是要提醒主委啦主委應該是最了解中國大陸的人"},{"start":487.19,"end":498.611,"text":"主委你還曾經擔任過民進黨兩岸協議監督條例小組的召集人所以我們在這次的報告裡面沒有看到要進行兩岸協議監督條例的立法"},{"start":499.42,"end":518.343,"text":"我們每次問到一些問題就說我們已經有修法了我想我們修法的部分是政治協議不是攸關民生經濟那跟主委講你會不會繼續推動相關的地方降低民生經濟的問題恐怕不是只有單純政治性只要有政治性的影響的協議都包括在裡面"},{"start":518.883,"end":519.744,"text":"本協議堅持兩岸互動要公開透明"},{"start":541.284,"end":541.464,"text":"主席主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}