{"error":false,"id":["149532"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149532,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149532","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T11:16:09+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T11:32:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe44918ba70bac059daaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a66348e1de93919e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:16:09 - 11:32:08","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1495,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時16分）部長、各位司、處、署長，大家好。我想在本會期的委員裡面，我應該是對檢方最瞭解的人，在修法上面能協助檢方的，我當然都會儘量去協助；當然有一些問題，我也希望能提出來，畢竟在這個環境做了快20年，瞭解是比較多，當然我也知道有一些東西。如果是無端的要求，要求你們做一個做不到的事情，其實也是沒有意義的。","我先提第一個東西，其實是延續總召剛剛所提的問題，就是人民對司法信任度的這個部分，當然很多時候民眾對於司法的信任與否，可能是從電視上面，甚至是一些電視劇，讓他對司法有一些誤解；但很多時候是不是我們自己搞出來的問題？請問部長知不知道高虹安有一個跟助理有關的案子，在訊問的時候，中間中斷了16分鐘的錄音？"],["蔡部長清祥：這個案情的內容我不清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問案情的內容，我單純就是問知不知道有16分鐘的錄音不見了，不是不見，是中斷了16分鐘的錄音。"],["蔡部長清祥：我也是看報導的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。依據刑事訴訟法第一百條之一，已經規定的非常明確，應該要全程錄音；另外，在檢察機關及司法警察機關錄音錄影資料保管辦法第三條也規定的非常清楚，一定要全程錄音。今天當事人對這個部分有意見，結果我們公訴檢察官竟然當庭，我不要說嗆他啦，這位公訴檢察官竟然說，中斷16分鐘是在與被告跟辯護律師做法律上定義的溝通，無關案件內容，不明白被告申請勘驗的意義是什麼。請問一下部長，對於檢察官自己違反刑事訴訟法以及保管辦法的規定，讓中間16分鐘沒有錄音，公訴檢察官的這個說法，你認同嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果整個訴訟程序在進行當中，當然要連續錄音錄影，如果是中間休息或是做其他的，整個訴訟程序中斷，那當然就停止錄音，對於每個案件，檢察官本來就可以來做整個案件處理的流程，所以要分辨它的情形如何。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天問題就出在這裡，其實我今天提這個並不是要找誰的麻煩，而是希望我們對一些問題可以把它補足，不要因為一些疏失，讓外界對我們產生很大的誤解。今天當事人說在這16分鐘裡面，承辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他，講了這句話；但因為沒有錄這16分鐘，導致現在就是各說各話，沒有辦法再查下去。所以我認為這種事情非同小可，因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的。當然我在這邊，我沒有說那一位承辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告，我沒有做這樣的結論，但是是不是因為這16分鐘沒有錄音，讓外界對這件事情認為現在就是羅生門了。是不是說我們將來可以要求檢察官在訊問的時候，一定要連續全程錄音、錄影，如果說真的有一些狀況需要中斷的話，務必要載明筆錄中斷的原因是什麼，這一次的問題是出在沒有載明筆錄，結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案，中間有16分鐘不見了，這16分鐘就發生了這樣子的糾紛，所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各地檢、高檢，將來在做相關訊問的時候，錄音能夠連續，好不好？我想這個應該是沒有問題，而且依法我們就該這麼做。所以我沒有辦法理解的是，這個公訴檢察官竟然還好意思去嗆那個當事人，我認為自己不對在先，如果被抓包了，在態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬地頂回去，因為是自己不對嘛，依法就要全程錄影嘛。請問部長，這一塊能不能夠做到？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。謝謝委員的指教。我們願意來重申，要求承辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官，在行使任何刑事訴訟程序職權的時候，依照規定，如果應該要全程錄音、錄影，就要照做，那我們會願意來做函示，來做重申。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。尤其是那種有高度爭議性的案件或高度政治性案件的時候，麻煩這個一定要做到，這樣子才能重拾民眾對我們的信心。否則今天這件事情，我不知道當事人說的是真是假，我也不知道檢察官說的是真是假，但是民眾可能就會開始對司法產生質疑，這一塊再麻煩部長能夠多處理。","接下來我想要請教的是人力的部分，最近大家都一直在講檢察官助理，其實我常常聽到以前的同事抱怨說工作量現在真的太多了，所以你們說希望爭取檢察官助理，這當然是善意，可是你們有沒有想過，檢事官現在沒有補滿的比例還滿高的？"],["蔡部長清祥：我跟委員說明一下，檢事官要經過考試，考試及格以後，還要參加職前訓練，所以雖然有缺額，但是都是預空給這些要考試、要受訓的人用，並不是完全就擺在那裡不用，但是要一段時間，而現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力，所以我們才會用檢察官助理來立即補足。何況法官都有法官助理，檢察官本來就應該也要有，法院組織法也規定要有檢察官助理，所以我們在法制化之前，希望爭取行政院的支持，確實行政院也支持。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了，其實偵查的四個核心就是內勤、外勤、開庭跟寫書類這四個，我想這這四個是重點，那請問一下，檢察官助理能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情？"],["蔡部長清祥：他只是輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作，所以是有範圍限制的，不像檢事官，檢察事務官具有司法警察的身分，他可以行使的職權更寬廣；檢察官助理沒有，他只是純粹一個行政事務的協助而已，所以當然要求是不同的，工作的內容也不同。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長，這樣的話，我大概瞭解。但是我必須跟部長說明一件事情，部長，你要注意一個點，就是這幾年離職率太高了，檢事官離職率也高，檢察官離職率也高，我先從檢事官這邊開始說起，我現在說的每一個東西都不是聽說，而是我自己經歷過的，還有我自己以前的同事私下會跟我講一些。其實檢事官離職率這麼高，有一個非常核心的問題是沒有成就感，雖然我們有簡任的職缺，有主任檢察事務官，但是目前都沒有，已經25年了，都沒有派。我當然知道原因，我也去思考過派了之後會不會造成簡任大增，或者是有人占了那個職缺就不走，但是除了這些問題之外，是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題？因為檢事官確實工作範圍非常廣，而且能夠幫助檢察官很多，但是像現在的狀況，他們士氣不高，我們是不是有辦法用其他制度？像我昨天在跟人事長談的時候，我說像日本的副檢察官制度，是不是就是一個鼓勵他們繼續做下去的動力？或是部長有一個非常好的德政，就是讓他們能夠轉任檢察官，我真的絕對肯定部長這個決策。所以說可不可以再有別的鼓勵方式？譬如說，副檢察官這個制度，副檢察官當然可以類似院方的司法事務官，他做的某些東西有一定的法律上效果，不會像現在的檢事官，可能沒有辦法取得完全的司法官權責，所以這部分再麻煩研議一下。其實這都只是為了讓他們能夠更有動力。","另外還有一個，就是檢察官離職很多。部長可能位高權重久了，聽不到外界的一些聲音，我以前的同事總是說，三專、二專制及輪調制是他們想離職的主因。部長應該知道，最近士檢有一個我們以前的好同事，好像是下個月還是下下個月就要離職了，其實大家背後的原因都一樣，你叫一個已經是主治醫師的醫生又回去做住院醫師，或是叫銀行的經理最後又回去坐櫃台，這樣的制度是不是違反人性？它也許解決了A這個問題，但是它創造了B那個問題。結果走的是我們最堅強的偵查力量，雖然他走了會有新人補進來，但是新人的能力遠遠不及這些走掉的，這是我自己觀察以後很憂心的一個問題，這樣是不是會讓檢察的戰力弱化？部長，你對這個有什麼看法？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心。委員你非常瞭解我們檢察體系人力的狀況，檢察官離職，當然每個人有他的生涯規劃，像委員你離職以後就有很多很好的成就，有些人有另外的規劃，我們都予以尊重。至於二專生、三專生這個制度，在我上任之前就已經定案了，我只是讓它執行一段時間以後，適時來檢討，也許在該檢討的時候，我們會立即檢討，讓大家看到自己的遠景。","至於檢事官的部分，我們也給予很多鼓勵措施，包括讓具有律師資格的能夠轉任為檢察官，沒有律師資格的，我們也需要有一些鼓勵，未來派任組長，擔任組長一段時間後有經驗了，未來也可能派任主任，我們有一套時程、有一套規劃來鼓勵他們，不管是檢察官或檢察事務官。謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外還有一個，書類的製作上，因為書類一直是這些檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一，起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下，不起訴處分的部分，是不是還是要用力去推廣做檢事？現在訓練所裡面沒有教很多檢事的部分，他們出了訓練所，分發之後，大家也沒有走檢事的路，書類還是寫得落落長，這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的。花很多時間在起訴書的製作，我舉雙手贊成，但是我覺得不起訴處分書或簽結應該要簡化，在不影響確定力的情況下，不起訴處分，事實部分儘量記載，才不會造成確定力受不起訴處分的影響，能簡化的儘量簡化，麻煩部長用力推。因為現在檢察官負荷不了，一堆檢察官來拜託我，請我一定要幫忙，我在這個會期接下來幾年也一定會全力協助檢察官降低工作量，強化偵查品質，但是也是要麻煩部裡面多幫忙。","最後就是要跟部長說明一下，我覺得有時候檢察官離開，真的不是隨波逐流或追求金錢權位，不是這樣啦！部長有一次說了一些話，部長知不知道這個新聞？"],["蔡部長清祥：我要說明一下，我當時這樣的說法是在鼓勵留下來的人，因為大部分是留下來的，少數離開了，就一直在批評現在環境不好等等，我為了要鼓勵真正留下來並願意再為檢察體系奮鬥的人，我是這樣來鼓勵他們，他們把我的話解釋成是在批評那些離開的人，像委員你這麼高成就，我是引以為榮啊，我為什麼會去批評他們？他們每個人有自己的生涯規劃，但是外面曲解為我好像是對這些離開的人指責，不是，我是在鼓勵留下來的人，所以他們要珍惜，這個是做很有意義的事，為社會貢獻，雖然工作環境或是所得報酬跟外界其他職務不成比例，但是我們有使命感，我們要靠我們的熱忱來為社會服務，我的重點是在這裡，但是大家曲解為我是對那些人不滿，不是這樣，是他們在批評我們，我反而是告訴留下來的人。謝謝委員給我機會說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不是指責部長，因為有人一直講，所以我讓部長有機會跟大家談一下部長的想法，就是希望部長儘量多聽真話，少偏聽，這是我聽到的一些話，在這邊跟部長說明一下。謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委的詢答。","接下來依照主席之前的宣告，我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時32分）","繼續開會（11時39分）"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在繼續開會。","請楊委員瓊瓔進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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個訴訟程序中斷那當然就停止錄音這是如果每個案件檢察官本來就是可以來做整個案件處理的流程所以要分辨它的情形如何"},{"start":185.68,"end":185.7,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":207.164,"end":227.216,"text":"檢察辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他講這句話那因為沒有錄這16分鐘就導致現在各說各話沒有辦法再查下去所以我認為這種事情非同小可因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的"},{"start":228.107,"end":248.283,"text":"當然我在這邊我沒有說那位陳辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告我沒有做這樣的結論但是是不是因為有這16分鐘沒有錄音讓外界對這件事情現在就是羅生門了是不是說我們將來可以要求"},{"start":249.229,"end":250.47,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":265.686,"end":285.593,"text":"中斷的原因是什麼?這一次的問題是出在沒有展明筆錄結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案中間有16分鐘不見了那這16分鐘就發生了這樣子的糾紛所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各院"},{"start":287.148,"end":288.049,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":311.804,"end":320.133,"text":"就我覺得態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬的頂回去因為自己不對嘛依法我們就要全程錄影嘛"},{"start":322.541,"end":342.699,"text":"請問部長這塊能不能夠做到?好,謝謝委員的指教。我們願意來重申要求承辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官,那你在任何在行使行事訴訟程序的職權的時候,依照規定,如果應該要全程錄音錄影的,就要照做。"},{"start":343.88,"end":343.9,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":365.72,"end":388.098,"text":"他可能就會開始對司法產生質疑這一塊再麻煩部長能夠多處理好那再一些我想要請教的是人力的部分因為最近大家都一直在講警察官助理當然我知道我其實我常聽到以前的同事在抱怨說工作量真的現在太多了那所以說"},{"start":389.577,"end":417.922,"text":"有希望爭取檢察官助理這當然是善意可是你們有沒有想過就是檢視官現在沒有補滿的比例還蠻高的跟委員說明一下檢視官他要經過考試考試及格以後還要參加職權訓練所以雖然有缺額但是都是預控在要給這些要考試的要受訓的人用並不是說完全就擺在那裡不用但是他要一段時間"},{"start":418.962,"end":444.47,"text":"那現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力所以我們才會用檢察官助理這樣來立即補足何況法官都有法官助理檢察官本來就應該也要在法院組織法要規定有檢察官助理所以我們在法制法之前希望就爭取行政院的支持確實行政院也支持我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了其實偵查四個核心就是"},{"start":445.55,"end":455.924,"text":"內勤外勤開庭跟寫書類這四個我想這四個是重點那請問一下夾關助理能夠能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情"},{"start":457.214,"end":486.073,"text":"他只是一個輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作所以他是有範圍的限制的不像檢事官檢察事務官他是具有司法警察的身份他可以行使的職權是更寬廣那檢察官助理沒有他只是純粹的一個行政事務的協助而已所以當然要求是不同的工作的內容也不同"},{"start":488.154,"end":491.598,"text":"這幾年的離職率太高檢視官離職率也高檢察官的離職率也高我現在說的每一個東西我都不是"},{"start":514.421,"end":530.571,"text":"剪事觀的離職率這麼高有一個非常核心的問題是在於說沒有成就感因為剪事觀他雖然我們有有檢認檢認的那個職缺有主任檢察事務官但是目前都沒有25年了都沒有派嗎"},{"start":532.165,"end":552.379,"text":"那是不是說我當然知道了我也去思考過說派了之後會不會造成那個檢認的檢認的那個大增或者是說在人那個職缺就不走的這些問題但是除了這個之外是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題"},{"start":555.602,"end":570.049,"text":"檢視官的工作範圍確實很廣 而且能夠幫助警察官很多但是如果說像現在的狀況 他們士氣不高是不是我們有辦法去用其他制度 像我昨天在跟那個"},{"start":571.51,"end":571.53,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":593.781,"end":622.517,"text":"讓他能夠像譬如說副檢察官的這個制度那副檢察官制度當然可以類似像院方的那個司法事務官他做的某些東西他有一定的法律上效果他不會說像現在的檢事官他可能在沒有辦法取得這個完全的司法官的這個這個權責所以這部分再麻煩也能夠研議一下其實這個都只是為了要讓他們能夠更有更有動力"},{"start":624.246,"end":625.046,"text":"剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯"},{"start":649.872,"end":649.912,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":676.67,"end":678.892,"text":"謝謝委員的關心你非常了解我們檢查系統體系能力的狀況"},{"start":706.63,"end":706.664,"text":"本集完"},{"start":706.926,"end":736.015,"text":"那對於檢察官離職當然每個人他有他的生涯規劃像委員他離職了你就有很多很好的成就那有些人他有另外的規劃我們都予以尊重那至於說二專生三專生這個制度是在我上任之前就已經定案的我只是讓他執行一段時間以後適時的時候來做檢討那也許時間該檢討的時候我們會立即的檢討讓大家有看到自己的遠景"},{"start":736.935,"end":761.859,"text":"那至於這個檢視官的部分我們也給他有很多的鼓勵措施包括可以具有律師資格的讓他能夠轉任為檢察官那沒有律師資格我們也需要有一些鼓勵那未來像組長派的派組長組長一段時間有經驗的未來也可能派主任"},{"start":762.279,"end":765.601,"text":"蘇磊的製作上,蘇磊一直是檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一"},{"start":784.431,"end":812.63,"text":"起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下是不是說不起訴處分還是要用力去推廣做檢視因為現在訓練所裡面他沒有交很多檢視的部分那出來分發之後大家也沒有走檢視還是寫的漏漏等但是這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的那你花很多時間在起訴書的製作我覺得這是舉雙手站著但是如果不起訴處分書"},{"start":814.111,"end":814.131,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":830.985,"end":857.885,"text":"有影響之外其實能簡化的就是要麻煩部長要用力推盡量簡化因為現在是檢察官負荷不了一堆檢察官來拜託我說一定要幫忙做那我這個會期接下來幾年我也一定會全力協助檢察官能夠降低一些工作量強化偵查品質但是也是要麻煩部裡面能夠多幫忙最後一張跟那個部長說明一下我覺得"},{"start":859.727,"end":878.848,"text":"這個有時候離開這個檢察官真的不是說隨波逐流或追求金錢權威啦不是這樣啦所以部長有一次在這個部長知道這個新聞我要說明一下啦因為我當時的這樣的說法我是在鼓勵留下來的人"},{"start":879.429,"end":894.301,"text":"因為大部分人是留下來的少數離開了他就一直在批評現在環境不好怎麼樣那我為了要鼓勵真正留下來願意在衛檢查體系來奮鬥的人我是這樣來鼓勵他們的那他們把解釋成我是在批評那些離開的人"},{"start":896.054,"end":896.194,"text":"委員吳宗憲"},{"start":918.952,"end":918.972,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":938.136,"end":938.497,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會說明"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}