{"error":false,"id":["149554"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149554,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149554","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T11:50:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T12:01:14+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeb678488ba0345fe23ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a643d6a46985ac7dbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:50:21 - 12:01:14","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長和台電董事長。"],["主席：請以上說明。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我今天看了台電2023年決算，總支出是逼近1兆元，9,999.18億元，自發的燃料支出是4,688億元，向民營電廠購電支出1,882億元，中間燃料是1,415億元，所以發電燃料支出大概就高達6,103億元，而2021年烏俄戰爭前的燃料支出是2,924億元。請教部長，因為烏俄戰爭造成燃料成本提高，因為現在國際燃料大概有下滑，你們覺得燃料成本這麼高的狀況大概還要持續多久才能把燃料成本壓到一個比較合理的水位？"],["王部長美花：現在有慢慢下來，但是因為俄烏戰爭還在持續，還有以哈戰爭，所以國際智庫或專業機構評估下來的速度不會很快，另外一點，只要有一點變動因素，可能又會影響燃料成本，目前我們看到國際重要機構的評估是這個樣子。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再回到剛剛提到1兆元這樣的支出結構，大概6,100億元是燃料支出，綠電是905億元，大概是9%；汽電大概就是指燃氣的？"],["王部長美花：汽電共生。"],["蔡委員易餘：汽電共生是255億元，其他是2,269億元，所謂的其他是指什麼？"],["王部長美花：包括折舊、利息、相關的電網等等都算在這裡面。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在台電因為燃料成本提高而虧損，這樣的虧損你們要支應利息錢嗎？"],["王部長美花：要啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：1年的利息大概多少？"],["王部長美花：都要借錢，所以現在台電1年負擔的利息已經超過300億元了。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個利息錢也是算在剛剛講的其他這欄，300億元？"],["王部長美花：對，其他的支出。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以可以看得出來，至少在燃料和利息支出都是目前看到很大的洞。"],["王部長美花：對，都是壓力。"],["蔡委員易餘：今天討論漲電價的壓力點大概是來自於燃料成本，台電不能再虧損，我們也知道從戰爭發生到現在，全世界的物價上漲很高，尤其像歐洲國家整個物價飆漲，物價的飆漲來自於他們的電價上漲。"],["王部長美花：是，還有糧食的部分也是。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，包括玉米價格也上漲，我以前有質詢過。但是這樣的上漲，我們可以看出臺灣相對於其他國家，我們的物價是平緩的，我們CPI上漲大概都是百分之二點多，跟我們比較近的大概是韓國的百分之三點多，還是比我們高，高了百分之一點多。如果以歐盟國家來說，有的可能逼近10%，非常可怕的漲幅。"],["王部長美花：對，非常可怕。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以臺灣相對物價平緩，台電甚至中油負擔很大，國營事業扮演……"],["王部長美花：我們吸收很大的漲價。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括中油的瓦斯桶也都凍漲，都把物價壓住，當然現在壓力鍋來了，現在虧損這麼多，這麼大的一個洞，除了今天討論的未來可能要漲電價，臺灣的電價可以比較趨於合理，不要讓台電一直虧錢。但是我覺得還有幾個觀念，部長也應該要督促台電，甚至台電公司內部也應該去檢討。第一，台電負擔的義務，事實上也不只剛剛說的平緩物價，就我之前所講的，台電買了很多綠電，但是我們賣給民間的時候，為了要降低排碳係數，所以台電這些電買起來是沒有價值的，是把它混在一起變成廢電賣出去，這對台電來說，為了降低排碳係數這一個環節，台電承擔了很大的社會義務。雖然對大廠有壓力，但是很多中小型企業沒有碳排的壓力，為什麼這一塊要由台電來吸收？這是第一個我覺得不合理的。第二，我覺得從這個事件上來說，台電應該要去面對自己有這麼多民股，為什麼台電是國營事業卻有民股？"],["王部長美花：早期的時候，民國六十幾年當時……"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛了解了一下，像中油就沒有民股啊！台電有！這件事情會影響到什麼？像去年政府稅收有超徵三千多億元，這三千多億元來自於臺灣企業賺錢，包括很多科技產業賺錢，他們賺錢也來自臺灣因為電價比較低，所以成本比國外低一點。他們有賺錢當然就多繳了稅，臺灣有這樣的稅收，事實上我主張，像去年的超徵稅收目前還沒決定怎麼用，就應該把這些錢也適度的拿來彌補台電和中油的虧損，如果這三千多億元能補進來，那可是大補丸，可以有很大的補助。"],["王部長美花：三千多億元是包括中央和地方，中央其實才二千多億元。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，當然也不可能到全部，至少可以挪個500億元，看中油要多少，事實上這就是一個很大的幫忙，可是又卡在台電並不是100%的國營，就只有幾%的民股，變成這個錢進去以後又會產生問題，中油是沒有這個問題，但是台電有。"],["王部長美花：所以我們會建議用補貼的，不要用增資，增資就會稀釋原來的股權。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得我們作價把它們買回來。"],["王部長美花：那是另外一個議題，台電的部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為台電是國營事業，它應該是要跟政府的腳步一致，現在不管是補貼或增資，事實上就是政府有這些錢來彌補台電的虧損，這很合理，大家也都接受，但是這個點卻因為我剛講的幾個理由而無法執行，我覺得很可惜。我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的責任，為了平緩物價讓大家生活好過，我覺得在一些點應該要適度的不要讓台電全部吸收，就像我剛講的排碳係數這個點，台電不一定要負擔排碳係數嘛！"],["王部長美花：排碳係數是國家的責任，另外，我們現在躉購進來的綠電也慢慢跟台電分手了，直接賣到民間。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在很厲害，它們都直接賣給民間企業，而且賣給民間企業都比台電的躉售電價4塊多還高。"],["王部長美花：還要高一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上這是有誘因的，既然看到了這個誘因，我覺得對台電而言，就是一個壓力點的釋放、解脫，以後這些電就讓民營去接洽，我們可以減少台電買綠電，因為就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛！你說國家好像有點責任……"],["王部長美花：台電還是要控制，我們還是被環境部管制，但是能夠賣給民間的還是儘量去賣。"],["蔡委員易餘：不用負擔那麼大的義務啊！現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了，以前的綠電好像台電買10元，壓力很大，現在沒有耶！現在台電買綠電反而不划算，讓綠電公司自己去找民營事業，它們還可以賣更高的價錢，台電就只是卡在排碳係數，我覺得適度的排碳係數，也不是說排碳係數就會影響到企業的經營，未必啦！只有大型、做外銷、國際企業才有這樣的壓力。所以我們可以適度的去這樣思考，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這很辛苦，但還是像剛剛申翰委員說的，如果漲了電價，對社會物價的影響評估要好好思考，要做比較翔實的報告，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。部長你看，藍綠白都不贊成。","接下來請陳委員冠廷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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大補完"},{"start":436.63,"end":461.028,"text":"不過3000多億是包括中央跟地方的所以如果中央其實才2000當然也不可能到全部嘛至少可是如果你可以挪挪個五百億啊中油化多少啊事實上這個就是一個很大的幫忙可是勒又卡在說台電又不是百分之百國營就只有那幾%的民營會變得說你這個錢進去的時候哇又會產生問題"},{"start":466.054,"end":476.945,"text":"所以我們會建議用補貼的不要用增資的不要用增資的部分就會稀釋那個原來的股權我覺得部長我們考慮啦就是做價錢把他們買回來啦"},{"start":479.248,"end":507.119,"text":"那個是另外一個議題是臺電的部分 我覺得很多因為臺電國營事業嘛他應該是要跟政府的卡簿可以一體嘛就政府我們現在不管是補貼還是增資事實上就是政府有這些稅捐這些錢就可以來彌補臺電的虧損很合理大家也都接受但是這一個點卻因為我剛講的這幾個理由事實上無法被執行我覺得很可惜"},{"start":508.307,"end":535.768,"text":"我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的國家的為了平緩負價然後讓大家生活這樣好過有負擔這麼大的責任事實上在於一些點的時候我是覺得適度的適度的要把台電的責任不用全部都去收啦像我剛才說的廢電的排氮係數這一個點這台電不用啦不一定一定要台電要負擔排氮係數吧"},{"start":538.035,"end":549.122,"text":"排碳係數是國家的責任吶吼那另外就是說確實現在也很多我們准購進來的綠電也慢慢他跟台電分手了直接賣給民間現在他們都直接賣給那個民間企業了而且賣給民間企業的都比台電的准收電價4點多塊"},{"start":556.767,"end":575.775,"text":"還要高耶!還要高阿!所以事實上這個是有誘因的阿!那既然看到了這個誘因我覺得對台電而言就是一個他們壓力點的釋放、的解脫!一天一天讓他們民營去接車!我們就不用去我們可以減少台電買綠電因為我就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛!"},{"start":579.277,"end":589.126,"text":"台電還是要控制啦我們還是被環境部管制還是要但是就是說能夠賣給民間的我們賣給民間還是會盡量去賣現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了以前的綠電好像台電有買10顆然後買的綠電好像是壓力很大現在沒有餒現在台電買綠電電到不會好餒"},{"start":605.475,"end":624.689,"text":"買綠電給綠電公司一直去找民營事業他們還可以賣更高的價錢台電就只是卡在排炭係數那這個排炭係數我覺得適度的排炭係數也沒有說每一家企業他都會因為排炭係數他會去影響企業經營未必啦只有大型在做外銷國際企業他們才會有這樣的壓力"},{"start":628.172,"end":650.288,"text":"所以適度的我們可以這樣去思考好不好是是好那我是覺得說這很辛苦啦但是我還是像剛剛深漢委員說的如果漲了電價整體對社會一些物價的一些影響評估我覺得這個要好好的思考然後要做一個比較詳細的一個報告好不好是是好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}