{"error":false,"id":["149571"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149571,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149571","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T11:24:19+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T11:36:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeff3988e15cddaf05f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a66a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:24:19 - 11:36:00","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請我們財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。在這個禮拜二的時候，賦稅署的宋署長還有五區的國稅局局長有到我的辦公室來，我有提到一個現象，就是在過年之後，國稅局好像會針對生意比較好的一些小吃店做查核，但是局長們都說沒有啦！我是認為，現在的統一發票銷售額每月20萬的標準，請教一下部長，你知道這個標準是哪時候訂定的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：民國75年的時候。"],["李委員坤城：民國75年訂定的，到現在有多少年了？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該有超過……"],["李委員坤城：38年了，在38年前訂20萬，跟現在的20萬，價值有沒有差很多？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們實施新制的營業稅制以後是進項稅，進銷項的稅額必須要做勾稽以及扣抵，所以發票是一個很重要的功能。"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，我只問你，38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬是不是差很多了？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然差很多了。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下部長，你知道38年前一碗滷肉飯大概多少錢嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：38年前一碗滷肉飯大概10元吧！"],["李委員坤城：大概10元左右，我去查了一下資料，那時候的鬍鬚張一碗滷肉飯是賣10元，你知道現在一碗賣多少錢了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得現在大概賣到50元的都有啦！"],["李委員坤城：對，你也知道，38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬差很多，38年前滷肉飯一碗才賣10元，現在要大概40元到50元啦！結果現在免稅額都還是定在20萬，難道沒有要調整的空間嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，當時定20萬是因為我們其實應該是課加值型的營業稅然後使用發票做勾稽，但是我們當時又考慮到一些小規模的營業人或特殊營業的性質，湯湯水水、賣豆漿飲料等一直開發票會有點困難，所以我們才訂了一個平均銷售額每個月20萬的標準。長期以來，我們一直輔導營業人使用發票，因為使用發票很重要。如果我們把標準調高的話，第一個，對消費者來說，消費者長期以來已經養成消費就要索取發票的習慣，如果把免稅額標準調高，相對地，開發票的商家就少了，民眾也減少可以兌獎的機會，這是對民眾而言。"],["李委員坤城：你這要從兩方面來著想，一個是民眾拿發票，另外一個是對店家而言也是一種困擾啊！我已經說過了嘛！當時候的20萬或許算高，現在20萬其實很容易就達到了！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，如果不開發票，是用查定銷售額來……"],["李委員坤城：我沒有說不開發票，我是說38年前訂的20萬跟現在的20萬，有沒有調整的空間？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果要調整的話，會有我們講的影響，跟原來要推動使用統一發票的目的是相違背的嘛！所以這個部分應該是要輔導商家使用統一發票，尤其現在開統一發票已經越來越便利了！包括我們推動所謂的雲端發票，所以是越來越便利的。"],["李委員坤城：按照部長這樣講，20萬會繼續一直延續下去就對了？沒有調整的空間就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為應該是維持這樣子會比較合理，對於整個稽徵人力的查核上也可以比較節省，剛剛您、委員提到……"],["李委員坤城：38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬的標準一樣，結果財政部也沒有要做任何的調整，造成很多的小吃店商家非常大的困擾，這是我們身為民意代表必須要來跟你們反映的啦！","我再請教一下，營業稅的起徵點分別是貨物的8萬跟勞務的4萬，這是95年12月修正的，再上一次的修正是在76年的7月，從95年到現在又隔了19年了。當時調整的理由是為避免通貨膨脹導致小吃戶納稅人稅賦加重，所以財政部決定參考綜所稅免稅額自81年到95年的調幅，修正小店戶營業稅的課徵，課稅的起徵點就是按照綜所稅的免稅額調整，那一樣啊！就又隔了19年了！這是19年的調整，而第一次調整，也就是從75年到現在總計38年的時間，物價指數成長了85%，我們綜所稅的免稅額成長了206%。","我再請教一下部長，是不是能夠制度化，以每5年或10年，按照物價指數或免稅成長率，檢討營業稅的免徵標準？或者我剛才提到的，免用統一發票銷售額的標準，能不能提出一個公式？而不是38年都不調整，未來10年也不調整，即使不調整也是要有理由嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分我們已經在研議調整了。"],["李委員坤城：就是要調整營業稅免徵4萬元跟8萬元嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是8萬跟4萬那個部分，我們會做一個調整。"],["李委員坤城：是要做怎麼樣的調整？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會審慎地配合比如CPI的上漲情形進行調整。"],["李委員坤城：一樣啊，就是跟19年前的調整一樣，參考物價指數、免稅額的額度。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，查訂的方式也會做一些調整，是，好，謝謝委員，我們這個部分正在做。"],["李委員坤城：很多小吃店跟我們反映，我還是要跟你們財政部所有官員再反映一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再問一下跟促參有關係的問題。關於基隆東岸商場的爭議，我要這個合約，身為一個立法委員，基隆市議員跟我講說他們要不到基隆市政府的合約，所以我也發文請財政部去要了，我是2月29日發文，到現在3月7日，我也還沒拿到啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：基隆的那個合約是嗎？"],["李委員坤城：對啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：我請司長說明一下。"],["李委員坤城：司長，請教一下，我問你，這個合約應不應該公開？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，其實按照政府資訊公開法是可以來公開合約的。"],["李委員坤城：應該要公開，按照你們的作業指引的規定，主辦機關按照政府資訊公開法第七條的規定，應該要公開投資契約嘛，對不對？"],["李司長建賢：是的，但是同樣在第七條也有提到，如果符合該法第十八條的一些規定……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我問你，這個案子應不應該公開？"],["李司長建賢：我們覺得，如果能夠把它公開的話，可以讓社會大眾比較容易瞭解整個案情。"],["李委員坤城：應該要公開嘛，然後到現在公開了沒有？"],["李司長建賢：但是我也要尊重一下基隆市政府的權力。"],["李委員坤城：這沒有什麼尊重基隆市政府，應該公開的資訊就應該公開，那你在促參司是做什麼的啊？這所有的資訊不是都應該公開嗎？"],["李司長建賢：因為基隆市政府……"],["李委員坤城：我只問你這個資訊應該不應該公開，到現在我要的書面資料也沒有拿到，那我可不可以在網站上看得到？"],["李司長建賢：除非基隆市政府自行上傳，否則網站上面應該是看不到的。"],["李委員坤城：所以你一點約束力都沒有？剛剛不是講了嗎，按照政府資訊公開法，應該要公開嘛，對不對？"],["李司長建賢：但是同一條的第十八條也有……"],["李委員坤城：所以你促參司沒有用啦，你沒有用啦，我跟你講，按照政府資訊公開法就應該要公開，你還幫基隆市政府講話。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，這個部分，因為投資契約是甲、乙雙方簽訂的，如果他們基隆市政府公開的話，就可以公開。"],["李委員坤城：應該公開的資訊就應該公開，部長認為要不要公開？該不該公開？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個要看有沒有涉及營業機密，如果涉及營業機密……"],["李委員坤城：營業機密當然不用公開。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，涉及營業機密的話就可以不公開。"],["李委員坤城：營業機密的部分我沒有說要公開，但是應該公開給基隆市議員的部分就應該要公開，對不對？它現在有沒有給基隆市議員？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，昨天的新聞報導裡面提到，他們已經把這些資訊公開，而且基隆市政府也同意把契約來公開了。"],["李委員坤城：對，給基隆市議員，但是不能上網公開嗎？"],["李司長建賢：你是說現在嗎？還是未來所有的促參案？"],["李委員坤城：至少這個案子啊。"],["李司長建賢：這個案子他們現在已經同意來公開了，所以我們會趕快來做這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：所以我說嘛，我跟你們要資料要不到，請基隆市政府公開，你們也不敢要求，按照政府資訊公開法，也應該要公開，到現在促參司沒有任何的作為，我現在最後只要求一點，你們在2023年有給基隆市政府關於東岸新的ROT案和信二停車場前置作業有315萬的補助費，有沒有？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，有的。"],["李委員坤城：現在有爭議了，第一階段的94萬他們已經拿了，第二階段跟第三階段的220萬，在這個爭議處理結束之前暫緩撥付，可不可以做到？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，有關補助要點的一些規定，包括暫停撥款，我們有相關的規定。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，現在已經有司法爭議了，那你們還要給嗎？"],["李司長建賢：委員的意見，我們回去再檢討，因為其實這部分是兩個案件，一個是東岸停車場……"],["李委員坤城：一個是東岸，一個是信二。"],["李司長建賢：對，所以信二的部分如果還是……"],["李委員坤城：信二也是有問題啦。"],["李司長建賢：目前並沒有看到有什麼樣的問題。"],["李委員坤城：也一樣啊，簽了二十年長約啊。所以促參司啊，到現在為止，一個立法委員跟你們要資料要不到，基隆市議員要的資料已經拿到了，我問你說可不可以上網公開，你說還要看基隆市政府，到現在為止，沒有拿到任何的資料，這個是有爭議的案件，所以我要求你，中央的補助不應該下去，能不能做到？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，就這個案子來說，目前東岸的部分有申請前置作業的補助款，前置作業補助款的撥補方式是有一定的進度，我們按一定的進度來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：第一階段你們已經給了啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，那第二階段的話，要看辦理的進度來申請。"],["李委員坤城：現在就是有爭議啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：爭議是前一個案子，是他們跟基隆市政府的產權爭議，目前已經進入司法程序。"],["李委員坤城：微風這個案子有爭議，不是前一個案子，是微風這個案子有爭議，他現在做的就是微風這個案子的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是另外一個契約雙方。"],["李委員坤城：就是這個案子，你們給他的就是這個案子啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是這個案子。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，現在有爭議啊，所以本席要求在有爭議的時候就不應該撥補。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們有相關的要點，我們再來檢視一下我們的要點。"],["主席：請部長會後跟李委員好好溝通一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["主席：相關文件備齊。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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可以讓社會大眾比較容易來了解那應該要公開嘛 它到現在公開了沒有但是我想也要尊重一下基隆市政府的一個權利啦 這沒有什麼尊重基隆市政府這該公開的資訊就應該公開啊 那你在蘇珊市是做什麼的這所有的資訊不是應該公開嗎"},{"start":442.268,"end":465.514,"text":"我只問你說這個資訊應該不應該公開我到現在書面資料有沒有拿到那我可不可以在網站上面看得到網站上面除非基隆市政府自行上傳否則應該是看不到的所以你一點約束力都沒有剛剛不是講了嗎按照這個政府的資訊公開法他應該要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":466.633,"end":478.724,"text":"但是在同樣那一條在第18條也有去提到所以你數三四沒有用啊你沒有用啊我跟你講這個按照這個政府秩序公開法就應該公開你還幫基隆市政府講話"},{"start":480.872,"end":507.795,"text":"委員這個部分因為投資契約是假以雙方簽訂的如果他們基隆市政府公開的話該公開的資訊就應該公開部長認為應該要不要公開該不該公開這個要看有沒有涉及到營業機密如果涉及到營業機密當然不用公開對涉及到營業機密的話他就也可以不公開營業機密的部分我沒有說要公開但是應該公開給基隆市議員的部分就應該要公開對不對他現在有沒有給基隆市議員了"},{"start":511.904,"end":530.058,"text":"報告委員從昨天的新聞報導裡面他們已經把這些資訊呢公開給委員而且基隆市政府也同意對給基隆市議員但是不能上網公開嗎上網公開你是說現在嗎還是未來的所有的出差案至少這個案子啊"},{"start":531.099,"end":547.536,"text":"這個案子他們現在已經同意來公開了所以我們會趕快來做這件事情所以我說嘛,我跟你們要資料要不到請藉由是政府公開你們也不敢要求按照政府資訊公開法也應該要公開到現在蔡先生沒有任何的作為我現在最後我只要求一點"},{"start":548.567,"end":564.283,"text":"你們在2023年有給他這個基隆市政府關於東岸新的這個ROT案還有性惡停車場的這個前置作業有315萬的這個補助費有沒有包括我有的現在有爭議了現在有爭議了"},{"start":567.54,"end":579.449,"text":"那我要求這個第一階段他們90萬已經拿了第二階段跟第三階段的220萬在這個爭議處理結束之前暫緩撥付可不可以做到"},{"start":580.795,"end":605.094,"text":"報告委員我想有關這個補助要點的一些規定包括暫停來這個撥款我們有相關的規定我的意思是說現在已經進入司法爭議了那你還要給他嗎委員的意見我們回去再檢討因為其實他是兩個案件一個是東岸停車場一個是東岸一個是新二對所以新二的部分其實如果他還是新二也是有問題"},{"start":607.238,"end":635.208,"text":"呃...目前並沒有看到有什麼...也一樣啊!簽了20年長約啊!前置是東岸的前置...所以喔!處三司啊!到現在為止一個立法委員跟你們要資料要不到!阿基隆市議員的這個資料已經拿到了我問你說可不可以上網公開你說還要看基隆市政府那當然在現在為止沒有拿到任何的資料所以我要求你這個是有正義的案件中央的補助部應該下去能不能做到?"},{"start":636.796,"end":653.912,"text":"委員報告就這個案子來說目前來說就東岸的部分他有申請前置作業的補助款那前置作業補助款的撥補的方式是有一定的進度一定的進度第一階段已經給了阿對那第二階段的話要看他辦理的一個進度來申請現在就是有爭議阿"},{"start":655.418,"end":659.844,"text":"現在這個違封這個案子也有爭議不是前一個案子是違封這個案子有爭議他現在做的就是違封這個案子的啊"},{"start":668.65,"end":689.495,"text":"李坤是另外一個就是這個案子啊你們給他的就是這個案子啊對就是這個案子啊對啊但現在有爭議啊所以本席要求在有爭議的時候就不應該撥補我想這個部分我們有相關的要點我們再來檢視一下我們的要點請部長會後跟李委員好好溝通一下好不好相關文件備起好謝謝委員謝謝李委員的質詢那接下來我們請武力華委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}