{"error":false,"id":["149584"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149584,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149584","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T12:26:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T12:35:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe55071e6ec59436a83ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a668624459ca2ade4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:26:34 - 12:35:03","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1068,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長、台電代理董事長。總經理也可以上來，因為有些業務如果董事長不知道，總經理可以代答，沒有關係。"],["主席：請以上三位。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。2012年馬政府油電雙漲導致民怨沸騰，那個時候我們在檢討電價調整必要性，民主進步黨有一位立法委員叫林佳龍，我覺得他那時候質詢得很有道理耶！他說電價要漲，結果台電還在養肥貓！其實佳龍學長用的字比較重啊！他是用「監守自盜」。他那時候批評台電總經理涂正義退休以後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心董事長，他認為這是台電在養肥貓。那時候針對這樣的批評，經濟委員會也通過一項附帶決議，要求以後這種退休轉任的事情必須受到限制。那我現在的問題就來了，當初台電總經理退休後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心董事長，民進黨那時候在野，強烈批判，說這是台電養肥貓啊！那現在台電副總經理退休以後，一樣到台灣大電力研究試驗中心當董事長，這樣是不是養肥貓？"],["王部長美花：他是用他的專業轉任到這邊來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以那時候是養肥貓，現在不是養肥貓？標準不一樣就對了？"],["王部長美花：這是委員個別的質詢。對我們來說，我們很慎重地看待這個職位。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個簡單的要求啊！當初怎麼要求人家的、怎麼批判人家的，現在就不要幹一樣的事情嘛！別人是養肥貓，民進黨幹就不是養肥貓？","第二個問題，當初經濟委員會的附帶決議內容提到退休以後不可以到民營事業去做，但那時沒有規範到經濟部或台電所實質控制的財團法人。部長認為這個規範有沒有修正的必要？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，其實台電一直在檢討相關工作，包括這件事情。對於這件事情，次長兼我們董事長之後也看到這個問題，所以他已經要求這些出去的同仁薪水絕對要砍下來、絕對不能超過台電總經理的薪水。"],["黃委員國昌：砍了以後，月薪不是還將近20萬元嗎？特別費不是4萬元嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：應該沒有到20萬元，根據新的規定都已經降下來了，次長、也就是我們董事長已經要求這些費用都降下來了，包含所有費用。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛才請教部長一個問題，總經理要回答也可以。那個時候規定退休以後轉任者，只有你們下面的子公司受到限制，你們控制的財團法人沒有嘛！這個規範有沒有檢討的必要？"],["王總經理耀庭：當然，因為這些財團法人都是台電投資的，所以現在去這些財團法人的都是台電的同仁或台電出去的。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很簡單啦！一個是公司形式，一個是財團法人的形式，但是從旋轉門條款的例子來講，不應該因為是兩者就有區別對待。所以我的問題很具體，拜託台電回去之後再思考，如果針對子公司有這樣的限制，針對財團法人需不需要有相同或類似限制？我的要求只有這樣。","時間的關係，我邁入第二個主題。剛剛也有委員質詢，台電在通過一些廣告標案的時候用限制性標案給特定網媒，包括周玉蔻的放言，台電剛剛由總經理回答，說你們有整體的評估。至於整體評估完之後如何，可能因為時間不夠，剛才那個委員沒有讓你具體回答，來！你們評估完以後覺得成效如何？"],["王總經理耀庭：向委員報告，我們希望觸及的是各個面向閱聽民眾。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！錢花下去了，這個石頭丟到水裡去了有沒有效果？台電要花錢總是要有評估嘛！我這樣說應該沒有錯吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可是我剛剛在下面聽，沒有聽到你們評估的結果是什麼，所以我現在請教你，給你時間回答啊！評估的結果怎麼樣？若是成效卓著、有達到預期結果，就要不斷地給、不斷地給、繼續給，是這樣嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們並沒有每一年都給放言。委員也看到這個數字，就是2018年、2019年、2020年、2021年，2022年沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：那沒有關係嘛！2018年給完以後，不是2019年也給；2019年給完，2020年又給嘛！2020年給完以後，2021年又給。那我的問題很簡單嘛！我說你連續幾年、每年這樣給有說錯嗎？我還給你時間解釋耶！你的成效是怎麼評估的？說出來給臺灣社會大眾聽一聽啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：因為我們整體投放廣告的媒體數量，如果我數字沒記錯的話，大概接近100家，如同剛剛提到的報紙廣告等等。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！我現在問的是你是怎麼評估的嘛！還是反正就是有這麼多錢，而錢就是要花，錢掌握在手上，愛給誰就給誰，成效都不用評估，是這樣嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：不，我們都會評估。"],["黃委員國昌：好，評估的結果是什麼，解釋給大家聽嘛！因為我看不出來啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：剛剛提過了，因為同樣一個人接觸的面向很廣，有可能在媒體上接觸、也可能在電視……"],["黃委員國昌：不要講空的嘛！剛剛你說有評估，那我讓你講評估的結果，請告訴大家。我完全沒講話，我開放式地給你回答，評估的結果是什麼？跟大家講啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：因為這牽涉到幾十家、將近一百家媒體，數字我可能一時記不起來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！我全部都調啦！你們剛才連續給的啊！但沒有成效報告啊！空白啊！在哪裡？我負責任地調資料回來看耶！好不容易看到有成效報告，一看卻大驚失色啊！成效非常好啊！點閱567次、點閱423次。錢是這樣花的喔？"],["王總經理耀庭：這是我們在這個單獨個案看到的……"],["黃委員國昌：對！這就是我的問題了嘛！這個單獨個案效果這麼差、沒有成效報告，每年錢還繼續給，到底是為了什麼？幫民進黨養側翼嗎？這就是我的問題啊！"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台電的意思是這個廣告的廠商其實有100家左右，委員有這樣的意見，台電會再檢討一下，看看這100家……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很簡單嘛！你們的錢都是納稅人的錢，台電需要幫忙，大家需要用電，我們必須認真地去看現在的狀況，理性地討論，我相信大家都同意。但我現在不管是50家、100家還是10家，錢不能這樣花，這是我的立場。"],["王部長美花：我們請台電檢討一下。"],["主席：林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在場。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在場。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在場。","蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在場。","莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在場。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在場。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在場。","林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在場。","請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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我們都會評估好 評估的結果是什麼解釋給大家聽嘛因為我看不出來啊那主要是因為剛剛提過了我的同樣的一個人他事實上接觸的面向很廣有可能在媒體上接觸不要講空的嘛剛剛你說有評估嘛我給你講評估的結果請告訴大家我完全沒講話我開放式的給你回答評估的結果是什麼跟大家講啊"},{"start":410.749,"end":420.312,"text":"因為這個牽涉到幾十家將近100家的媒體 這數字我可能還一時記不起來沒有啊 我全部都去調了啊 你們剛連續給的啊 沒有成效報告啊 空白啊 在哪裡 我負責任的去調資料回來看欸"},{"start":431.749,"end":444.799,"text":"好不容易看到有成效報告了哇我看了大驚失色啊成效非常好啊點閱567次點閱423次錢這樣花的這個是在這個單獨個案我們看到的齁對這個就是我的問題了嘛這個單獨的個案效果這麼差沒有成效報告每年前還繼續給到底是為了什麼幫民進黨養車役嗎這就是我的問題啊"},{"start":464.864,"end":477.934,"text":"跟委員報告臺電的意思是說我們的這個廣告其實有100家左右啦齁那委員的有這樣意見臺電會去再檢討一下那看這樣的每一個的我都問你很簡單嘛100家你的錢你的錢都是納稅的錢臺電需要幫忙大家需要用電"},{"start":487.403,"end":487.884,"text":"我們台電來檢討一下 是"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}