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12:41:56","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時35分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：「即將上漲的電價對於一般人民，不管是有固定收入或平日收入不足的人民來說都是很大的負擔」，這句話你認同嗎？"],["王部長美花：對電價部分，我們會考慮相關因素，過往幾次調整也都會考慮相關民生與物價問題。"],["羅委員智強：這個政府在感受人民的痛苦，與人民的感覺差很遠。","「我覺得很多漲價要從長計議，這麼短時間、這麼巨大的漲幅對一般人民來講真的是很大的負擔」，請問你認同這句話嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會考慮相關影響，都會讓審議委員會參考。"],["羅委員智強：那您知道這句話是誰說的嗎？是蔡英文總統說的。她在2012年4月20日評價馬英九總統的油電雙漲政策，勸他千萬不能漲電價，結果他還是蠻幹。「民進黨一直呼籲馬政府不要漲電價，結果他還是蠻幹」，這句話誰說的？這句話是民進黨的前主席蘇貞昌、也是前院長蘇貞昌講的。","我想請教部長，4月份漲電價是屬實的嗎？有這個方向了嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們確實有規劃，是！"],["羅委員智強：平均漲幅是多少？媒體報導台電說大概10個百分點，是對的嗎？"],["王部長美花：目前都還在討論當中。"],["羅委員智強：那你覺得大概要漲多少？你們的原案是要漲多少？"],["王部長美花：原案是優先爭取政府的補貼。補貼之外，希望今年台電能夠不要再持續虧損。"],["羅委員智強：補貼之外呢，可能會漲多少？"],["王部長美花：這要看補貼金額。"],["羅委員智強：你們是主管機關，台電跟經濟部總有個想法吧，不然你叫大家怎麼看？"],["王部長美花：在電價審議會，台電會提出幾個相關方案，由審議會討論。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問，蔡英文總統說過十年不會大漲電價，對不對？"],["王部長美花：這個有前提。委員，俄烏戰爭也是沒有人想過的。"],["羅委員智強：她講過這句話啦！沒關係，我想請教你，10%算不算大漲？10%、10個百分點算不算大漲？"],["王部長美花：這個要看時空背景以及相關成本情形。"],["羅委員智強：那2018年4月漲了3個百分點，算不算大漲？"],["王部長美花：2018年……3%之內其實是授權台電可以調漲。"],["羅委員智強：2022年7月漲8.4個百分點算不算大漲？"],["王部長美花：這都是在計算相關成本跟預算的部分。"],["羅委員智強：2023年4月漲11個百分點算不算大漲？"],["王部長美花：這是電價成本反映的問題。"],["羅委員智強：8年下來，若不算這次，漲了22.4個百分點，請問算不算大漲？"],["王部長美花：所以我剛才有跟委員講啊！俄烏戰爭的情況是沒人會預料到的情形。"],["羅委員智強：前面沒有俄烏戰爭因素喔！"],["王部長美花：是啊！所以俄烏戰爭……"],["羅委員智強：這次是10%喔！","馬政府四度調漲電價、三度調降電價，對不對？"],["王部長美花：委員也知道，那時候國際燃油、甚至油價還曾到負的，所以國際情形確實會影響臺灣的能源。"],["羅委員智強：我算過啦！馬政府有漲有降啦！8年來大概漲了20個百分點。你們如果不算這次，已經漲了22個百分點。如果馬政府當時如同蘇貞昌口中的霸道、蔡英文口中的與人民感覺差很遠，那我不知道現在算不算霸道、算不算跟人民感覺差很遠。","電價一漲，所有東西也都會漲嘛！對不對？"],["王部長美花：所以我們都一直非常謹慎處理物價的問題。"],["羅委員智強：那我問你，我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候問過NCC的人事，我說NCC人事是重大人事案，問他會不會跟賴清德總統當選人商量，他說會。那我想請問您，電價算不算重大事件？"],["王部長美花：電價算是重大事件。"],["羅委員智強：那你會不會尊重新政府，與賴清德當選人溝通？"],["王部長美花：我們政府之間有相關……"],["羅委員智強：有溝通啊？"],["王部長美花：他本來也是我們的副總統……"],["羅委員智強：那我想問，賴清德總統當選人同意還是不同意？"],["王部長美花：目前都是蔡總統在執政……"],["羅委員智強：我是說你跟他溝通之後，他的意見是傾向同意還是不同意？"],["王部長美花：這部分在內部討論上，是總統在負全責。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是賴總統當選人。因為陳院長說重大政策要跟他商量啊！那你有沒有跟他商量？而你剛才講有商量，可是商量時總有一個傾向嘛！那他是贊成還是不贊成？"],["王部長美花：大原則就是目前台電的狀況……"],["羅委員智強：我再請教您，您也對電價歷史很了解嘛！2008年馬總統油電雙漲，可是電價的調漲累積不是他上任才開始的，是從前任總統開始。馬總統什麼時候調漲？看守政府那時候有沒有調漲？沒有。"],["王部長美花：他在2016年有調整。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是2008年那一次，2016年是前期啊！而我現在要講的是，對於這些電價調漲，我覺得你們還是要跟賴清德總統當選人講清楚，他是希望你們先幫他拆掉炸彈，還是他非常認同你們現在4月調漲電價？等一個月讓新政府調漲電價、讓他面對民意的檢驗，不是更符合看守政府的職分嗎？"],["王部長美花：政府之間都會有內部討論。"],["羅委員智強：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在場。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在場。","李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員不在場。","請洪委員孟楷發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":242.528,"end":267.125,"text":"所以我們一直都非常謹慎在處理這個國家問題那我問你齁因為我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候問過NCC的人士我說NCC人士是重大的一個人事案齁我問他會不會跟賴清德總統當選人商量他說會那我想請問你電價算不算重大的一個事件電價算是重大事件那你會不會跟新政府尊重新政府跟賴清德當選人溝通"},{"start":268.7,"end":297.217,"text":"這個我們政府之間有相關的這個部分那因為他本來也是我們的副總統那我想問賴清德總統當選人是同意還是不同意目前都是蔡總統在執政我說你跟他溝通他的意見是親向是同意還是不同意這個部分在內部的討論我想這個總統在賦權我講的是賴總統當選因為我們陳院長講說重大政策要跟他商量啊你有沒有跟他商量"},{"start":298.257,"end":323.7,"text":"你剛才有商量啊但是商量總有一個傾向嘛他是贊成還是不贊成大的原則就是說目前的台電的狀況我在請教你你也對電價的歷史很了解嘛這個2008年那時候馬總統有點雙漲嘛可是電價的調漲累積不是他上任才開始嘛是在前任的總統開始可是馬總統什麼時候調漲?看守政府那時候有沒有調漲?"},{"start":326.907,"end":347.152,"text":"我講的是2008那一次2016那個都是前期啊那我要現在講就是說這些電價的調漲我覺得你們還是要跟賴清德總統當選人講清楚他是希望你們先幫他拆掉炸彈呢還是他就是非常認同你們現在4月來調漲電價"},{"start":348.712,"end":359.439,"text":"你等一個月讓新政府來漲電價讓他來去面對這個民意的檢驗不是更符合看守政府的職份嗎?我們政府之間都會有內部的討論以上謝謝你"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}