{"error":false,"id":["149592"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149592,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149592","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T12:34:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T12:51:38+08:00","影片長度":"00:17:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe74ac6a1e04035d69dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f51543f03295d4945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:34:27 - 12:51:38","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1250,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時34分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["劉委員建國：食藥署的署長也一起來。"],["主席：食藥署署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，我剛剛看到王召委最後一個提案，原本我也是敬表同意，但是從這個案我要去延伸很多問題。王召委的提案是針對小朋友在學校的營養午餐，對不對？所以我們現在要做這件事情就是避免小朋友吃到蘇丹紅釋出的添加物，因為它有引起致癌成分的存在，對不對？這個事情、這個案過了，它會延伸出什麼問題，你有思考過嗎？就像前幾天王召委也提了關於零食、火鍋店的鴨血，現在這種天氣，臺灣的餐飲業者中火鍋店所占的比例多高？火鍋店的食用者會不會有小朋友？他們也一定會去，要不要處理？小朋友的事情我們要特別重視，但臺灣任何一位消費者的事情我們更加重視。我剛剛看到衛福部的官員吃很大塊的雞排、雞腿飯，那個雞腿有沒有外加辣椒粉？要不要禁？衛福部官員的命也是命啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這個辣椒粉的問題之所以不好解決，原因就在這裡。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以禮拜一我就特別講到，其實食安風暴，像這種添加物不是單一的成品，不像以前的毒奶粉，對不對？它是一個添加物。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：你們要非常慎重、嚴謹的、積極的，甚至是阻絕中國進到臺灣的這些東西，馬上當機立斷，不能讓它進來的就不能再讓它進來。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，這個問題就是這樣，目前我們的辣椒粉大部分都是仰賴進口，中國大陸那邊佔了80%。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在這些違規的是50%，如果一下子通通禁了，我們會沒有辣的可以吃，對於國人的飲食習慣來講還是會有一個影響。"],["劉委員建國：不是這樣啦！部長，80%全部仰賴中國進口，出問題的是50%，在80%裡面的50%出了問題就已經占了一半，以100%來講就是占了一半了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是剩下的還是要讓它進來，不能看到是中國的就一律禁止進口，這樣是不太好的一個管制措施。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們要更加嚴謹，看要如何去做相關的因應，什麼地方該禁就該禁，對不對？包括前幾天有些縣市針對營養午餐的部分就已經禁了、有些縣市是還沒有，而你是敬表尊重嘛！不對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：不對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：為什麼？"],["劉委員建國：就不對嘛！今天王召委提出這個案子，是不是就全國通用了嘛！我要表達的是，可能有些事情你要事先展現該怎麼做就怎麼做。這個時間會很長嗎？可能就是食藥署要辛苦一點，積極地看要怎麼做相關的查緝、比對、檢驗。對於一些可能發生的或是比例比較高的地方，你們就必須持續的對外公告、對外表示，這裡可能比較危險、這裡是高風險，所以你們就先處理掉，暫時就不可以嘛！我覺得你們應該是要做這些事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！現在往下追查就是這個原則，誠如委員剛才講的，如果下游廠商的產品量是大的，我們就要先處理啊！"],["劉委員建國：部長與署長都沒經歷過過去的食安風暴，就像發生了這麼嚴重的東西之後，後面還會再跟著其他東西一直出現，不會結束。你不要把這個蘇丹紅事件變成一個沙塵暴，讓風飛沙飛得到處都是。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會啦！"],["劉委員建國：不會？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個已經是在收斂當中了。"],["劉委員建國：我替你們感到非常憂心，甚至也很擔心，真的啦！剛才我來的時候看到林委員在質詢，其實那些追查的方向是沒有問題的喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個部分其實是有一個困難點，如果我們要針對個別的公司去稽查，看他們是不是有相關的子公司或分公司，這些就要一起查出來，這樣我們就變成經濟部的商業司了，其實我們的困難就在這裡，做這件事情大概是很困難的。"],["劉委員建國：但是遇到重大食安的事情，基本上就是跨部會的合作，最起碼是這樣嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！是沒有錯啦！"],["劉委員建國：因為我們不希望它持續地流竄、持續的被使用嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這種牽連的情形可能是有一些困難，不過我們會努力進行跨部會的協調。"],["劉委員建國：我就是建議部長、提醒部長，包括署長在內，對於這件事情的因應可能要更有智慧、更積極、更展現一些魄力，這樣才能快速解決掉這場風暴。","今天的主題是缺藥問題，剛剛也有委員特別問部長，在1月份的時候部長有用這個說法，有時候我覺得部長說的話是蠻重點的、蠻經典的，這個會讓人家記得特別清楚，未嘗不是一件好事。如果堅持用原廠藥只能等死，這是部長的講法，對不對？但是它的前面如果再配一句話就能表達出召委今天排的這個議題，沒藥醫當然是要等死。你的意思是如果要選擇這個藥、如果只想選這個藥，沒這個藥就當然是要等死，你的意思是這樣嘛！對不對？但是政府怎麼會讓人民搞到沒有這個藥可以用？我們還要去告訴病患，你只挑這個藥，所以你就只能等死！但是講這句話要有底氣耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們有藥能用啊！"],["劉委員建國：你講的這句話是重點，也能讓人記得很清楚，就是部長要討論一個問題嘛！有別款藥可以用，你不用，只想等這個藥，當然只有等死，你的意思是要表達這個，對不對？另外一個角度也是希望國人可以對自己國內的學名藥有一定程度的信心，對不對？應該是這樣講嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是我讓部長看一個數據，我說講這句話很重點，大家也記得起來，但是講這個話要有底氣。2018臺灣學名血壓藥被驗出致癌物，300萬顆下架回收；2019就累計4起學名藥在安定性試驗後，主成分不符標準而回收的事件，這個都不是在部長的任內，但是在署長的任內喔！2023衛達化學製藥在三個月內出包3次，8款藥回收；同年發現臺灣製學名藥前列腺癌膠囊疑似主成分溶解不全，導致膠囊內出現白色顆粒，7月5日全部回收，這是在部長任內。以上是我簡單調出幾個例子，除此之外還有沒有，署長應該比我更清楚，你要怎麼建立國人的信心？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分有一些是廠商自己主動通報而下架，如果我們要建立對國產藥的信心，食藥署這邊還是必須要加強對後市場的稽查，包括這些藥是不是能夠符合我們的安全標準及劑量標準，我們一定要針對後市場繼續追蹤。其實以現在的機制來看，廠商的主動性也是有的，應該是可以建立信心，既然它能夠上市也就是符合PIC/S GMP的標準，問題在於後市場之後繼續製造的到底是不是仍然符合當初查驗登記的標準，我們就必須要在後市場繼續追蹤。"],["劉委員建國：我在這邊將這個過程提出來，並不是說全部都是這樣，但是也因為有這些事情，當然有的是廠商主動提出來，就像也是有下游廠商自己去檢驗出蘇丹紅而告訴供應商這個東西是有問題的，供應商還在那邊遲遲不作為，對不對？就是類似這個樣子嘛！這樣當然會讓使用者的信心降低，我們該怎麼提升？我相信很多廠家沒有這些問題，而且長久以來它的三同與原廠藥都是一致的，你們也有做宣導、你們也有相關的預算在推廣，對不對？但是顯然力道好像不是很足。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們今年在這方面必須要增加預算。"],["劉委員建國：可是這不是現在發生這個事情，我們現在才在做嘛！之前為什麼沒做到？這個效益這麼不好，這個有需檢討吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！明年度食藥署在這個部分的預算一定會增加，我想委員也知道，我們的宣導費用經常在立法院被刪掉一部分，所以這個部分還要請委員協助、支持。"],["劉委員建國：過去我還在這邊的時候，幾乎沒刪你們什麼宣導費用，是哪一位委員，你可以私底下告訴我。"],["薛部長瑞元：通刪啊！"],["劉委員建國：審預算的時候我們可以好好的與他溝通一下，對不對？但是刪一次、兩次，也不會全部都拿掉。"],["薛部長瑞元：每年都會通刪一個比例。"],["劉委員建國：還好吧！也還好吧！你這麼講，還好這個會期沒有審預算，如果要審預算的話，你講這樣很危險。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為委員剛好提問，所以我講一下，就是希望委員能夠支持。"],["劉委員建國：我當然是支持啊！但是有時候也不是靠宣導就可以解決這件事情，對不對？國人對於學名藥的信心，除了你如何鼓勵這些學名藥的廠家，還要制定更完整的配套以及相關的政策，我想不只是宣導啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["劉委員建國：我的時間到了，最後還是要提供幾個訊息，當然過去也是誠如部長所講的，航運受阻，所謂的紅海危機，以及巴拿馬運河事件等等，但是缺藥不單只是這個原因、不單只是這個原因。"],["薛部長瑞元：最近的情形是這個原因為主要的因素，不是只有臺灣，而是國際性的一個特別缺藥潮。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛應該也是王召委提的，社區藥局要成立所謂的藥品合作社，而且要與物流業者合作，這個有什麼問題嗎？為什麼要把它拿掉？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上，因為這個牽涉比較大，像物流業者也不是歸我們管轄，藥局成立合作社也不是我們能夠主導的，如果要執行這樣的決議我們會有困難，所以可操之在我的我們就會先做。"],["劉委員建國：這兩項你們都完全沒辦法處理？不會這樣吧？物流業者的部分，還是可以溝通啊！還是可以……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！但是溝通就變成我們要找他們過來，問題是我們又不是他們的主管機關，人家也不一定會聽我們的。"],["劉委員建國：缺藥這個問題絕對是跨部會能處理的事情，對於部長剛剛的回答，讓我感覺你並不是這樣作為的人，這樣講有問題耶！不是這樣啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：這要讓食藥署能夠去執行，因為決議的執行都是有時間性的……"],["劉委員建國：你們對外講只有9項藥品，對不對？其實不只嘛！其實不只嘛！社區藥局連這9項通通都沒有啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：社區藥局的缺藥不是真正的缺藥，它是剛好沒藥啦！一個可能是它沒有採購、另外一個是剛好斷藥，這是個別的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：它沒有採購，剛好是斷藥，但是它向上游廠商、藥廠都訂不到這些貨的情況之下，社區藥局……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以它要通報，我們可以幫它協調、我們可以去調度，現在的問題是……"],["劉委員建國：社區藥局通通沒有通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：很多都沒有通報啊！沒有通報過來，我們怎麼會知道。"],["劉委員建國：很多都沒有通報表示也是有通報的嘛！很多都沒有通報，畢竟還是有通報的吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：有通報的我們都有處理了，沒有通報的我們就無從得知啊！"],["劉委員建國：為什麼有的沒藥卻不通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道，它就……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你不能說不知道，可能你不知道，但是署長應該會知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：它不通報，我們要怎麼去押它？"],["劉委員建國：不是要你去押它，而是為什麼有的會向你們通報、有的卻不會向你們通報？是什麼問題？我們在管理整個藥品供應無虞的情況之下……"],["薛部長瑞元：有一些是自己可以處理。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：碰到了就自己在業界之間互相調貨，大部分都是這樣處理的，少部分就是沒有，但是它就真的不通報，我也不知道為什麼。"],["劉委員建國：署長也不知道為什麼？你們通通不知道為什麼，我們也就不知道為什麼啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是媒體知道啊！很奇怪就是這樣子！媒體知道哪一個藥是缺的，還說什麼社區藥局沒有，但我們就是沒有接收到通報。"],["劉委員建國：目前為止，有一些比較特殊的用藥，還是這些藥源基本上是病患特別需要使用的，可能會因為譬如紅海事件或一些緊急的事件，我們自己像農業那樣建立冷鏈系統，可以妥善地把這些藥……"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員講的那一類的藥，大部分都是因為藥廠來通報，所以我們就會緊急進行專案採購、專案輸入，或是專案製造，如果國內自己能夠製造，所以這個部分都有處理的機制。現在有一些是個別的，像是社區藥局自己沒有備這個藥，結果人家拿處方箋來領藥，它調劑時就沒有這個藥，這個時候有幾種解決的方式，第一個是業界之間互相調藥、第二個就是請病人把處方箋拿回原來的醫療院所，看是要改處方或是就在醫療院所調劑；另外，除此之外的case，為什麼它不通報，我就不知道了。"],["劉委員建國：因為時間到了，我這邊有幾點具體建議就以書面給部長及署長做為參考，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：但我對於部長剛才的說明還是有點不太能夠理解，你講的第二點，社區藥局沒有再回到原來的醫院，豈不是又會造成醫院相關的排擠情況再度發生。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們並不希望是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：我們就在做這樣的分流了，怎麼還讓社區這邊領不到藥，又要再回到原來的醫院，顯然制度上是有問題的啊！好啦！謝謝召委、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","接下來請徐委員欣瑩、徐委員欣瑩、徐委員欣瑩不在。","張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡不在。","鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐不在。","我們請陳瑩委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.122843750000001,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.96221875,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.26096875,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.47159375,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.41221875,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.42346875,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.18284375,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.92534375,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.970968750000004,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.77659375,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.54409375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.59846875,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.16784375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.68596875,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.96846875,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.85846875,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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對不對所以我們現在要做這個事情就是避免小朋友去吃到這個蘇丹農四處三道的添加物嘛因為他會引起這個致癌的這個成分的存在嘛 對不對那這個事情這個案過了他會延伸什麼問題你有思考過嗎"},{"start":55.096,"end":77.002,"text":"就像前幾天在講,網友提那個所謂的零食嘛,然後火鍋店的壓血。現在這種天氣,台灣的餐飲業者火鍋店所佔的比例多高?那火鍋店的使用者,小朋友會不會去?也一定會去嘛。要不要處理?"},{"start":80.378,"end":96.719,"text":"小朋友的事情我們要特別重視但台灣論的一個消費者的事情我們更加重視衛生部的官員我剛剛看到是吃了很大塊的雞排雞腿飯那雞腿有沒有外加辣椒粉要不要進"},{"start":98.979,"end":123.42,"text":"所以跟我們報告這一個辣椒粉的問題之所以不好解決就原因就在這對所以第一天禮拜四我就特別講說其實食安風暴像這種添加物它不是單一的成品它不像以前的毒奶粉對不對它是一個添加物你們要非常慎重嚴謹的積極的甚至也就是說阻絕中國"},{"start":128.747,"end":138.116,"text":"進到臺灣的這些東西,就是要馬上當機立斷,不能再有機會委員,這個問題就是這樣,我們現在目前的辣椒粉,都是大部分的仰賴進口,那中國大陸那邊有80%,佔80%,現在這些違規的是50%"},{"start":150.027,"end":158.573,"text":"所以你一下子通通禁的話我們會沒有辣的可以吃啦對國人的飲食習慣來講還是會有一個影響不是這樣啦部長80%是全部仰賴中國進口出的問題是50%"},{"start":168.259,"end":183.012,"text":"這個在巴士裡面的保險措施出的問題就已經佔了一半了嘛一百趴來講就佔了一半嘛但是出那個你也是要讓他進來啦 不能看到中間他進不進去大概就不太好的一個管制措施"},{"start":184.313,"end":203.885,"text":"所以你們要更加嚴謹的看怎麼去做相關的意義,什麼地方該禁你就該禁嘛對不對,包含因為前幾天有些縣市是針對營養午餐就已經禁了嘛,那有些縣市是還沒有嘛,那裡是禁表尊重嘛,不對啊,不對啊,那就不對嘛,那今天王昭偉提出來這個案,就是全國通用了嘛"},{"start":206.11,"end":223.192,"text":"我要表達的就是說可能有些事情你要事先的就去展現該怎麼做就怎麼做了啦啊這個時間會很長嗎就看可能就食品主要辛苦一點啊積極的看怎麼去做相關的這樣的一個查緝比對嘛檢驗嘛"},{"start":225.876,"end":238.114,"text":"對一些可能會發生的還是比喻比較高的地方可能你們就依序的就必須直接的去對外做公告、對外做表示這可能比較危險、這比較高風險我們就先處理掉先檢視不可以"},{"start":241.397,"end":261.341,"text":"現在往下追查就是這個原則,委員說的如果他的下游廠商產品量是大的,那我們就要先處理部長跟署長都沒有經歷過過去的那個神風暴這不會是有這行東西發生,這嚴重,後來會再對一行來會再對一行來,一直來,會死就對了你不要把這個"},{"start":269.303,"end":275.186,"text":"我聽你們感到非常憂心甚至也很擔心真的啦因為剛來的時候看到林委員在諮詢其他那些追查的方向"},{"start":292.661,"end":313.192,"text":"是沒有問題的喔?那一個部分的話其實是有一個困難點是說我們如果要個別的公司去做查、積查而且這個要把它是不是有相關的這些子公司或分公司要一起查出來我們就變成經濟部的商業司啊"},{"start":319.034,"end":330.579,"text":"但是遇到中大食安的事情基本上就是跨部會的一個合作嘛這基本上是這樣嘛因為我不希望它持續的流竄持續的被使用嘛"},{"start":330.939,"end":355.054,"text":"但是這種牽連的情形的話可能是有一些困難不過我們會努力來跟外部會來做一些協調我就是建議部長提醒部長當然署長對這件事情的因應可能要更有智慧更積極的然後更展現一些魄力這樣才會把這個風暴快速解決掉今天的主題還是這個就缺藥問題"},{"start":356.636,"end":383.767,"text":"那剛剛也有委員特別問部長嘛在議會的時候那部長有用這個說法嘛我是覺得部長在講一些話是蠻重點的蠻經典的那這個會讓人家特別記憶清楚為啥不是一件好事啊因為若堅持用原廠藥只能等死嘛就部長的講法嘛對不對但是但是他在前面如果再配一句話就會表達今天召委排的這個議題嘛"},{"start":385.063,"end":390.844,"text":"政府怎麼會讓人民搞到沒有這個藥可以來用,然後我們要去跟病患講說,你就要跟病患講,所以你只有丹氏。"},{"start":410.489,"end":418.173,"text":"這句話不是,但這句話有底氣的,不是,對我知道啦,我現在齁,這句話你講到是一個重點嘛齁,也能讓人記得很清楚,就是部長你要討論一個問題嘛,有八款藥好用你不用,你自己要丟這個藥,當然你只有丟四嘛,你藝術是要表達這樣嘛對不對,另外一個角度也是希望"},{"start":432.161,"end":460.069,"text":"國人可以對自己的國內的這些學民藥有一定程度的信心嘛對不對應該是這樣講嘛但是我看我讓部長看一個數據我說講這句話很重點大家記得起來但是這個講話也有底氣嘛2018台灣學民血壓藥被驗出致癌物300萬顆下架回收19就累積四起學民藥在安定性試驗後組成分不符標準而回收事件這個都不是在部長的論內啦但是在署長的論內喔"},{"start":462.915,"end":481.83,"text":"2023未達化學資料在三個月內出發三次八款藥回收同年發現台灣這個學名藥前列腺癌的這個膠囊已是組成混融解不全導致囊內的出現白色顆粒7月5號宣布回收這是在部長任內"},{"start":484.011,"end":510.928,"text":"這是我簡單調出幾個啦齁 這中間還有沒有 署長應該比我更清楚嘛好 那你要怎麼建立國人對這個信心這個部分有一些是廠商主動他自己的來通報然後這個下架的所以我們其實是當然如果要建立國產藥的信心的話那食藥署這邊還是必須要加強啦齁那對於後市場的一個稽查"},{"start":511.688,"end":533.355,"text":"包括說那是不是都能夠這一些藥都一直符合能夠符合我們的安全標準跟它的這個劑量也有標準這個我們後市場一定要繼續來做追蹤但是其實以現在的機制來看的話那廠商的他的主動性也是有的"},{"start":534.395,"end":562.224,"text":"所以這可以建立信心嗎?因為它只能夠上市的時候已經都符合PIX GMP的標準了那就是後市場以後繼續再製造到底是不是仍然符合當初做這個查案登記的這個標準這個我們必須要去後市場我把這個過程這件事情提出來我並不是講說全部都是這個樣子"},{"start":562.884,"end":591.944,"text":"但是也因為有這些事情當然有的是長商主動提出來就像蘇丹農也有像有廠商自己去檢驗發現有問題把供應商講說你這個東西是有問題的那供應商還在那邊遲遲不作為對不對類似也類似這個樣子嘛那這樣當然就會讓使用者的信心會降低嘛那我們怎麼提升我相信很多的廠家沒有這些問題而且長久以來他的山童的這樣跟原廠藥都是一致的好"},{"start":592.899,"end":610.216,"text":"我們整個 你們也有做宣導啊 你們有很多的相關的預算都有在推廣嘛 對不對對 但顯然好像力道不是很足對 所以我們今年呢 在這方面的話必須要增加這個預算但是不是現在發生這個事情我們現在才在做嗎之前為什麼會做到這個效益這麼不好 這個有需檢討吧"},{"start":613.499,"end":639.949,"text":"對啦,食藥署這邊在明年度的預算一定這部分會增加但是我想委員也知道嘛我們的宣導費用經常在立法院的話就會被殺掉一部分啦所以在這部分還要請委員來協助那能夠來支持我過去還在這邊的時候幾乎沒有去刪你們什麼宣導費用是哪一部分你可以私底下跟我講省綠算是說我們好好的跟他溝通一下"},{"start":641.959,"end":656.189,"text":"對不對?但是山可能也一次兩次也不會全部爬也全部拿掉嗎?差不多每年都會通山一個爬樹啦還好吧,你這麼講這個會期沒有在省預算"},{"start":659.071,"end":685.086,"text":"你要審慮預算的時候,你講這樣很危險因為委員剛好在問,所以我講一下,就是希望說委員能夠支持我當然是支持,但是有時候也不是只有靠宣導就可以解決這個事情,對不對?我能對這個學品藥的信心,除了你怎麼鼓勵這些學品藥的廠家然後制定更完整的配套,還有相關的一些政策我想不只是宣導,是講到這個地方,對不對?"},{"start":687.038,"end":704.846,"text":"我時間到了啦,我最後還是要提供幾個訊息啦齁,因為當然過去來講是有,這也是從部長所講的嘛,航運受阻嘛,所謂的鴻海危機嘛齁,過去還有巴拉雷嘛,運河的事件等等等,但是,但是這個缺藥不單止這個原因啦,"},{"start":707.151,"end":730.777,"text":"最近的情形是這個原因是主要的因素啦這不是只有臺灣嘛這是國際性的這種特別的一個缺藥草社區藥局要所謂的這個成立藥品合作社還有與物流藥水合作這個有什麼問題嗎為什麼要把它拿掉"},{"start":731.482,"end":736.844,"text":"不是這兩項完全你們都沒有辦法處理不會這樣吧你說物流業者還是可以溝通啊還是可以"},{"start":759.935,"end":772.598,"text":"對啦,但是這個溝通的時候,我們就必須要找人來,因為我們不是主管機關,人家不一定會聽我們的啦沒有啦,有聘,欠有聘"},{"start":773.097,"end":773.437,"text":"這個決議的執行都有時間性"},{"start":802.427,"end":809.195,"text":"因為你們對外講說只有9項這個藥品嘛對不對其實不止嘛其實是不止嘛你們說9項嘛社區藥局連這9項都沒有啊"},{"start":815.153,"end":841.927,"text":"市區藥局的缺藥不是真正的缺藥它是剛好是沒藥啦一個是他可能他沒有採購另外一個就是剛好是斷藥這個個別的狀況對阿他沒有採購阿剛好是斷藥阿他跟他的上個廠家跟這個藥廠都訂不到這些貨的情況之下那市區藥局有沒有阿所以他要通報嘛我們可以幫他來做協調嘛我們可以去調度嘛阿現在的問題就市區藥局都沒有通報"},{"start":843.167,"end":860.998,"text":"很多都沒有通報阿 很多都沒有通報也代表是有通報嗎?很多都沒有通報畢竟還是有通報嗎?有通報我們都有處理了沒有通報的我們就無從知道阿為什麼會有的藥都沒有通報?我不知道阿 他就通報媒體阿你可能不知道 署長應該會知道"},{"start":867.061,"end":891.252,"text":"不是你把他騙,是怎麼有的會去跟你們通報,有的不會跟你們通報,是什麼問題?我們在管理這整個藥品的供應無虞情況之下。一點點說明,有一些他自己是可以處理的,碰到他自己在業界之間互相調貨,大部分都是這樣處理掉,少部分的話就是沒有,但是他就不通報,我真的也不知道為什麼。市長也不知道為什麼?"},{"start":895.714,"end":895.894,"text":"目前為止"},{"start":917.562,"end":935.047,"text":"有些比較特殊的用藥還是說他這些藥源基本上是病患特別需要使用的然後我們也會因為像鴻海的這種事件嘛對不對還是一些一些緊急事件我們自己向農業去建立這種冷鏈的系統"},{"start":935.947,"end":962.834,"text":"然後把這些藥可以妥善的...剛剛委員講的這一類的藥的話因為他會通報大部分都是因為藥廠來通報所以我們就會緊急來開始做專案的採購專案的輸入或專案的製造如果國內自己能夠製造所以這個部分的話都有處理的機制那現在是有一些是個別的像社區藥局這樣他自己沒有備這個藥"},{"start":964.884,"end":975.953,"text":"那這個部分結果人家拿處房間來了那他就要調劑嘛啊都沒有這個藥沒有這個藥的時候有幾種解決的方式第一個就是業界之間互相去調藥"},{"start":976.943,"end":995.125,"text":"第二種情形就是請病人把處方錢拿回去原來的醫療院所看是要改處方還是說就在醫療院所去做調劑另外除此之外的case為什麼他就不通報我就不知道了"},{"start":996.636,"end":1024.439,"text":"好 時間到了我這邊有一些具體的建議我先順便給部長跟署長做參考啦好不好但是我覺得部長剛剛這種說明還是有點不太能夠理解齁你現在講到第二點在社區疫情裡面有然後再回到原有的醫院那不是去到原有醫院又造成排擠的相關的一些情況又會發生所以我們不希望是這樣對嘛 那變於我們就在做這樣的一個分歧的怎麼還讓社區的這邊領不到藥然後又要再回到原有的醫院"},{"start":1024.991,"end":1025.031,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}