{"error":false,"id":["149607"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149607,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149607","日期":"2024-03-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-08T15:48:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-08T16:03:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703ccb923439e4dde06c5d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a67c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"15:48:05 - 16:03:52","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（15時48分）好，謝謝，我請院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：張委員午安，恭喜你當選連任。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝、謝謝。院長你請坐。"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係。"],["張委員宏陸：有幾個問題，我想請問一下文化部部長，我們的國家兒童未來館現在目前進度的落實到底是怎樣？請部長回答。"],["陳院長建仁：國家兒童未來館它的建築設計都已經選出來優勝的團體，我們預計是在114年完成建築設計，工期5年，希望在119年能夠完工，我請部長再跟委員補充。"],["史部長哲：報告委員，委員也有參加我們建築競圖展示的開幕，目前當然是由國內建築師張瑪龍跟日本建築師伊東豐雄的提案能夠獲得優勝，現在在進行相關的基礎設計，已經開始在進行了。"],["張委員宏陸：預計會如期發包嗎？"],["史部長哲：我們以這個作為目標，我們希望不要再拖延，所以我們對這個部分其實是努力在進行的。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道你很努力在進行，但我問你是說會不會如期？"],["史部長哲：會，會如期發包。"],["張委員宏陸：會啦！"],["陳院長建仁：一定要掌握進度。"],["張委員宏陸：其實因為這個是很多不只板橋，我們新北市的人都一直殷殷期盼，如果能夠如期地發包當然是最好的。"],["史部長哲：是。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝啦！謝謝。另外想請問交通部王部長，泰板輕軌社後的支線，現在不知道有沒有突破性的進展或是還是在原地打轉？"],["陳院長建仁：泰板輕軌我請部長來回答。"],["王部長國材：新北市政府有提出可行性報告，但是它認為這一個是後階段，所以它是在那邊留下道岔，讓以後在社後地方可以連接，所以目前它會把這個當作下一階段，現在先把泰板輕軌讓它先過，它現在目前大概以這樣為目標，但是它已經預留了道岔的位置。"],["張委員宏陸：已經預留了道岔的位置，其實表示新北市政府它也是想要做嘛！對不對？那想要做，如果現在它不積極做，就兩個原因，一個應該是錢，一個應該是市長個人的想法而已，我覺得這個其實經費也不多，我上次的質詢，部長跟院長也說如果需要，中央會全力支持嘛！所以我是覺得應該要麻煩部長，我們要跟新北市政府積極溝通，為了地方的發展，要就一次到位嘛！不要兩次施工嘛！對不對？是不是部長能夠跟新北市這邊積極地溝通？要給它承諾，我們如果給它承諾，你不報出來責任都在它呢！不然它現在一直說中央不給錢。"],["陳院長建仁：好像我們已經請市政府考慮納入規劃檢討，這個部分我們請交通部這邊再跟市政府做溝通，我想這個是一個……"],["王部長國材：我們事實上我知道委員已經……我們在每一次審查會都跟它講，那它現在就是說因為泰板輕軌走得比較快，它不想要讓社後這條來影響它的進程，所以目前它是希望說泰板輕軌已經走到這個程度就讓它走，那社後是下一階段，它也沒有說不做，目前是這樣，我們跟它講，已經幾乎每次審查會……"],["張委員宏陸：部長。"],["王部長國材：而且也把張委員的建議、立法院的建議都跟它說了。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我跟你講啦！選舉已經過了，是一個新的契機，選前新北市政府它要拖，我覺得有它的立場啦！對不對？但為了市民的福祉，我覺得不應該這樣，我覺得你們應該要積極地去做，它講那個理由你不覺得很瞎嗎？對不對？這個行政的程序，我也在行政機關十幾年，重大的決策，如果你真的要全部配合，一個月、兩個月也都可以完成了啊！怎麼可能那個是理由呢？所以我在這邊要請部長要跟院長說，就算它的泰山輕軌，我們也補助那麼多錢，我們補助那麼多錢的情況之下，為了地方的福祉，中央請它一起做，我覺得這個是很有說服力的啊！我覺得大家要來努力啊！好不好？"],["王部長國材：我們已經在努力中，目前大概是這樣，已經把這個意見也都表達，我想說它有留下道岔就是這個可行性還是都放在那個地方，不會一次把它打死，大概是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講當然是不會一次打死，但有留下這個道岔表示它也想啦！"],["王部長國材：對，就是可以出去。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！它也是想嘛！所以我的意思是說應該儘快，因為對整個新北，對整個我們的板橋然後一直到新莊，這我覺得是很多大家都想要的，我也不認為新北市市長會一味地反對到底啦！中央大家都要給你經費、要給你什麼的情況之下，你要反對到底，他要面對的是很多人，我希望部長要多溝通，給他們一些壓力，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是，他們提出來，我們也是按照我們的審議原則，中央該給多少補助就給多少補助，這沒問題。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。其實也要很感謝院長，我去年一直爭取敬老卡搭臺鐵，部長、院長跟大家的鼎力協助，尤其那時候蘇院長跟我們大家一起來，很感謝！我在上一次的總質詢也有拜託我們的陳院長。院長，看一下現在這個敬老卡搭臺鐵，雖然我們補助各縣市的點數不一樣，但是各縣市單趟次可以坐的點數、金額也完全不一樣，等於全國非常混亂，你看一下屏東是500點、嘉義200點、我們新北是30點。那時候我跟薛部長跟陳院長說，拜託你們去跟各縣市協調看看是不是全國統一規劃？甚至用整年度來算，不用每個月來算，我不知道這個部分協調得如何了？"],["陳院長建仁：因為這個……"],["張委員宏陸：這可以請我們薛部長來回答。"],["陳院長建仁：因為這個敬老卡由地方發放，委員很關心各縣市的老人福利，希望他們能搭乘臺鐵，但是點數的部分確實需要跟地方做協調，協調的情況我請部長說明。"],["張委員宏陸：請部長說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，臺鐵的部分大概已經有12個縣市答應……"],["張委員宏陸：沒關係，部長，我知道你不舒服，簡單說就好了，你們有沒有去協調？協調得怎麼樣？這樣就好了。"],["薛部長瑞元：臺鐵的部分有協調，還剩下5個縣市，至於敬老卡的使用是否可以累積，因為這牽涉到每個縣市的財務狀況，所以這部分還沒有共識。"],["張委員宏陸：不不不，部長，我認為這個累積跟年度的部分，跟各縣市的財務狀況是不相干的，因為整年度的預算都編在那裡了，沒有多花一毛錢，只是它不讓你用每個月去算，而是用一整年度去算，沒有多花任何一毛錢，這絕對是沒有的，這只是給市民方便而已。部長，我覺得……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為1個月到的話，剩餘的點數就收回去了。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，收回去是一件事，但絕對沒有多花一毛錢，如果用整年度來算，其實也不見得每個人都用到完。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，每個縣市有自己的考量。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，其實只要一個縣市開始做，其他縣市都要跟啦！講白一點，為了選舉，人家隔壁有的但他沒有，下次還要不要選？對不對？我覺得這其實是從人民的口袋偷錢，你說可以給我那麼多，卻每個月給我這樣，我覺得很奇怪，我還是希望部長可以積極去協調。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們儘量看看。"],["張委員宏陸：我還想請問部長一件事，有委員在說很多人囤慢性病的藥，他的資料從哪裡來的？確實有這種事嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員是說囤慢性病的藥嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：對，囤慢性病的藥。"],["薛部長瑞元：指的是病人本身還是什麼醫療機構？"],["張委員宏陸：不是有立委這樣講嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，病人本身應該不叫囤藥，因為他是拿著處方箋去拿藥，只是有可能他沒有吃，結果就剩下來，但如果是醫療機構或者藥局的話，我認為不會有這種現象。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我認為不會有啊！所以如果不會有的話，我們應該大聲說沒有這種事情，你不能讓人家……"],["薛部長瑞元：藥師公會也出來澄清了。"],["張委員宏陸：不要說人家給你潑一點墨水、一點什麼，潑久就整塊布變黑了，我覺得不應該這樣，有就要馬上出來說，我覺得是這樣，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，你先回去坐，我看你的喉嚨不好。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：最後，前瞻計畫已經8年了，其實我們的目標之一是城鄉的均衡發展，一個很簡單的議題，但很多人在吵財政收支劃分法什麼的。院長，我覺得有一件事情我們可能要來思考，行政區劃法或什麼的我覺得應該要，臺灣已經那麼多年，幾十年來我們就單獨升格變成六都，但整個區域的均衡發展我覺得我們並沒有完全照顧到。","我給院長看一個圖，臺中市跟苗栗的卓蘭，臺中市的電話區碼是04，而卓蘭鎮是在苗栗，卓蘭鎮的區域碼是多少，院長知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚。"],["張委員宏陸：應該不清楚啦，我直接跟你說……"],["陳院長建仁：它是04。"],["張委員宏陸：它就是04，整個苗栗是037，你看，整個卓蘭鎮因為受到地形影響，受大湖丘陵……"],["陳院長建仁：二大坪……"],["張委員宏陸：跟這個的影響，他們其實很少去苗栗，他們的生活圈都在臺中，都在東勢、豐原，連電話的區域碼都是臺中的。我們幾十年發展下來，不需要去檢討這個問題嗎？我的生活圈就在這裡，連電話的區碼也在這裡，出入都在這裡了，但我們的行政區劃還是幾十年前的，我一直覺得與其一直吵行政區劃、財政收支劃分法，這個問題要先解決才可以，小到很多村里也是規劃得非常不適宜現在的生活圈，我覺得要從人民的角度來看，我們討論行政區劃要不要檢討。我在這邊要跟……"],["陳院長建仁：內政部曾經有送一些行政區劃法的草案到貴院，但都是逾期沒有審查完畢。現在內政部已經有請專家在進行，我請部長簡單說明一下。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員垂詢。我想有兩個部分，第一個，行政區劃的確是有需要，不過它需要更多的共識，不管是由下而上還是由上而下，這是第一點。大到縣市的行政區劃的調整，小到一個里的調整，其實它背後還會涉及選舉區域的劃分，所以我們會特別地慎重，不過大家也都在討論，我想凝聚共識最重要。謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，很多人怕去碰這個，就是說會扯到選舉，選舉席次等等的，但如果你從人民的角度來講，我覺得應該要以檢討的角度，你看光是臺中，現在的和平，中橫已經不能通了，它從南投出入耶！這對和平鄉的人來講很不公平啊，我覺得這個問題是值得花時間來檢討的。謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員宏陸的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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對不對但為了市民的福祉這個我覺得不應該這樣我覺得我們應該要積極的去做他講那個理由你不覺得很瞎嗎 對不對這個行政的程序我也在行政機關十幾年啊"},{"start":316.317,"end":327.681,"text":"重大的決策如果你真的要全部的配合一個月兩個月也都可以完成了啊怎麼可能那個是理由勒所以我要在這邊我要請部長要跟院長說"},{"start":329.895,"end":352.938,"text":"就算他的泰山輕軌,我們也補助那麼多錢。我們補助那麼多錢的情況之下,為了地方的福祉,中央請他一起做。我覺得這個是很有說服力的啊。我覺得就是大家要來努力啊,好不好部長。我們已經在努力中,目前大概是這樣,已經把這個意見也都表達。"},{"start":354.161,"end":373.191,"text":"那我想說他有留下倒叉就是這個可行性都放在那個地方,不會一次把他打死。當然是不會一次打死,但有留下這個倒叉表示他也想。對,就是可以出去。對嘛,他也是想。 對不對,所以我的意思是說應該盡快的讓這個。"},{"start":377.217,"end":391.786,"text":"對整個新北、對整個我們的板橋,然後一直到新莊,這我覺得是很多大家都想要的。我也不認為這個新北市市長他會一味的反對到底。"},{"start":393.297,"end":393.938,"text":"其實這個也要很感謝院長"},{"start":421.673,"end":449.955,"text":"我去年一直爭取這個敬老卡搭台鐵部長跟院長你們的這個大家的鼎力協助尤其那時候蘇院長跟我們整個這樣大家一起來很感謝那時候我上一次的總諮詢也有拜託我們的陳院長院長你看一下我們現在這個敬老卡搭台鐵各縣市"},{"start":451.277,"end":451.417,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":470.536,"end":485.907,"text":"新北是30點那時候我們的薛部長跟我們陳院長說我拜託你們要去跟各縣市去協調看是不是全國有統一的規劃然後甚至是"},{"start":487.526,"end":496.172,"text":"因為這個敬老卡是地方發放委員很關心這個各縣市的老人的福利然後希望他能夠來達成高鐵但是那個點數的這個部分確實有需要來跟地方做協調"},{"start":516.007,"end":538.487,"text":"那協調的情況我請部長來說明。請部長說明。跟委員報告齁,那台鐵的這個部分的話,大概已經有12個縣市。等一下,那個部長,我知道你那個,你簡單的說就好了。你講你們有沒有去協調,要協調的怎麼樣,這樣就好了。"},{"start":540.578,"end":543.379,"text":"不不不,部長你聽啦齁"},{"start":568.511,"end":588.842,"text":"我認為這個累積跟用年度的這個我覺得這跟各縣市的財務狀況是不相干的因為整年度的預算都編在那裡了他沒有多花一毛錢只是呢他讓你不要用每個月去算用一整年度去算沒有花到任何多一毛錢這絕對是沒有的"},{"start":590.399,"end":618.152,"text":"這只是給市民的方便而已。部長,我覺得啦...一個月到的話他剩餘的點數就收回去了啦。我跟你講啦,收回去是一件事,但絕對沒有多花一毛錢。那你如果是用整年度來算,其實也不見得每個人都會用到完啦。每一個縣市有他自己的考量啦。部長,其實啦,只要有一個縣市開始做啦。"},{"start":618.911,"end":619.471,"text":"我還想請問部長一件事"},{"start":647.532,"end":666.74,"text":"有委員在說這個很多人在囤慢性病的藥,他的資料從哪裡來的?確實有這種事嗎?委員說的是囤慢性病的藥,是指的是病人本身還是什麼醫療機構?有立委不是有這樣講嗎?"},{"start":668.527,"end":684.257,"text":"沒有,病人本身那個應該不叫做囤藥,因為他還是拿著廚房錢去拿藥的嘛,那只有可能說他沒有吃啦,結果就剩下來。但是如果說醫療機構或者是藥局的話,我認為不會有這種現象。"},{"start":686.078,"end":686.258,"text":"最後啦齁"},{"start":718.346,"end":734.904,"text":"我們前瞻計畫已經也8年了,然後城鄉的軍人發展其實我們是有這個目標。其實一個很簡單的議題,很多人在吵財政收支劃分法什麼的,不過"},{"start":736.499,"end":764.415,"text":"院長我覺得有一件事情我們可能要來思考行政區劃法或什麼的我覺得應該台灣已經那麼多年幾十年來了我們就單獨升格變成六都但其實整個區域均衡的發展我覺得我們並沒有去完全的去照顧到我給院長看一個圖"},{"start":765.796,"end":783.486,"text":"我們臺中市跟苗栗的卓蘭那個院長臺中市的電話的區碼是零四院長卓蘭鎮他是苗栗"},{"start":784.352,"end":813.186,"text":"卓蘭鎮的區域碼是多少?院長知道嗎?我不太清楚。應該不清楚啦,我直接跟你說啦。他是零四。他就是零四啦。那整個苗栗呢,是零三七啦。對不對?你看喔,整個卓蘭鎮他因為受到地形的影響啦,大湖丘陵啦,跟那個的這個影響,他們其實很少去苗栗,他們的生活圈都在台中。"},{"start":814.141,"end":825.636,"text":"都在東勢啊都在豐原連電話的區域嘛都是台中的那我們幾十年的發展下來了我們不需要去檢討這個問題嗎這個我的生活圈就在這裡"},{"start":830.195,"end":843.827,"text":"臨電話的區域碼也在這裏我的出入都在這裏了我們的行政區域化還是在幾十年前的我一直覺得說與其一直在炒行政區域化那個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":844.514,"end":844.534,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":864.758,"end":892.741,"text":"這個內政部在曾經這個行政區劃法的時候曾經有到有送一些草案到貴院來但是都是預期沒有審查完畢那現在內政部也已經有請專家在進行我請部長簡單說明謝謝委員詮詢我想兩個部分第一個是行政區劃的確是有需要不過他需要更多的一個共識不管是由下而上還是由上而下這是第一點"},{"start":893.302,"end":895.383,"text":"我知道啦,很多人怕去碰到這個,就是說會"},{"start":919.249,"end":919.269,"text":"謝謝張委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}