{"error":false,"id":["149612"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149612,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149612","日期":"2024-03-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-11T09:07:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-11T09:21:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300e3ec0b13d7c0939eaea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6d00e2261dae0cf995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:07:53 - 09:21:34","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":78,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：有請監察院李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長早。拜讀了一下監察院113年的立法計畫，上一屆的國會，監察法曾經提出來。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：後來監察院自己把它撤回去了，後來第二度又再提出來。上一次被撤回去的法案裡面有要處理調查權法制化的問題，後來再提的版本裡面這個條文已經沒有了，我講的就是監察法第二十六條的規定。","這一次你們在監察院的立法計畫當中，兩個具體的問題，第一個，監察法什麼時候會送來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們希望在這會期之前。"],["黃委員國昌：可以做得到嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：應該可以做到。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，調查權的法制化會處理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們沒有這樣的計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有這樣的計畫？李委員，您之前在當委員的時候，對於調查權沒有法制化，批評很多嘛！覺得現在沒有這個問題了嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在的調查權跟國會的調閱權還有司法的偵查權有一定的、不一樣的理由跟目的，這個部分這一次的立法計畫是延續了上一屆我們送來的監察法有關國家人權的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：所以目前監察院出的調查報告沒有法源的依據，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不太懂黃委員的意思。"],["黃委員國昌：目前監察委員做得最多的就是調查報告嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：調查報告的法源依據在哪裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院行使憲法第九十五條、第九十六條的調查權，所以調查報告當然是依照相關規定來的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你是直接適用憲法嗎？您當初在當立法委員的時候強烈批判這個調查報告沒有法源依據，你還記得嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我知道，所以我跟委員說明，這一次我們修法，就是承續上一屆屆期不連續，我們送來的是國家人權委員會職權行使……"],["黃委員國昌：國家人權委員會歸國家人權委員會，現在我在請教你的是調查報告法源依據的問題嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：那調查報告……"],["黃委員國昌：目前調查報告的法源依據是什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：調查報告我們現在依據的就是監察法第二十六條。"],["黃委員國昌：直接依照憲法就對了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是監察法第二十六條。"],["黃委員國昌：監察法第二十六條上面有講調查報告嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：上面沒有提到監察報告，但是我們依照該條文做了調查，就應該做調查報告。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！秘書長，您在當委員時的立場跟現在的立場一不一樣，社會大眾可以檢驗。","下一個具體的問題是，地方巡察勞師動眾、效益極差，監察院什麼時候要處理監察院巡迴監察辦法？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院的巡察是依據監察院巡迴監察辦法的規定，我們每年要對地方做2次……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為地方巡察有沒有效益？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們內部有在討論。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有沒有效益？"],["李秘書長俊俋：最重要的是我們的監委到地方巡察的時候可以接受民眾的陳情。"],["黃委員國昌：來！我提醒你看一下，2018年12月19日，你在當立法委員的時候質詢監察院，我唸給你聽：有關地方巡察的業務，只是要應付4個月一次的巡察，搞得地方政府勞師動眾，到底在巡察什麼東西啊？這種東西根本就是不符合時代的產物，現在交通這麼發達，還要什麼地方巡察，那是過去的觀念！那個時候你建議監察院自己把這個地方巡察辦法廢掉，現在你的立場有改變嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，因為我這樣的建議，監察院的地方巡察已經由3次改為2次了。"],["黃委員國昌：由3次改為2次？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對！是不是要再修改，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們看一下地方巡察次數，112年、111年和110年分別是32次、32次、22次，地方政府一樣是要應付這些地方巡察，預算一樣要編啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，所以我跟黃委員報告，我們是依據相關的規定來執行，過去我認為地方巡察次數太多，現在也改為2次了。"],["黃委員國昌：不是喔！那個時候你說地方巡察自己要廢掉啊，而且你還斥責監察院啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒錯……"],["黃委員國昌：該自己廢的報告不廢，還要立法院動手！"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在監察院要不要自己動手？"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員，我跟你報告，現在這個部分我們院裡正在討論當中……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會有結論？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要看院裡，我只是幕僚長，不是委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你當到秘書長了，我希望你能夠堅持過去的理想，我的看法跟你一樣……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我在院會……"],["黃委員國昌：搞這種地方巡察要幹什麼？直接把它廢了啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我在院會提過，但是委員有不同的意見，這個要留給委員討論。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下，對於監察院過去這3年彈劾的績效，秘書長覺得滿不滿意？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們向來不以績效做為監察院到底有沒有做到憲法賦予的職權，憲法賦予的職權是彈劾、糾舉、審計，重點是如何把違法失職的糾出來，而不是案件的多少。"],["黃委員國昌：好，重點不是案件多少。2014年，一樣是您痛批我們的監察院一個委員平均一年彈劾不到一件……"],["李秘書長俊俋：不會，不會有這樣的現象，這個我們……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看一下2023年的時候彈劾了幾件？"],["李秘書長俊俋：2023年彈劾了20件。"],["黃委員國昌：一人平均有到一件嗎？沒有啊！跟你當初批評的時候一模一樣啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：20件是需要經過很多的程序、還要審查的，所以各個委員其實相當忙碌，整個……"],["黃委員國昌：2014年的時候你的批評是一人一年彈劾不到一件，這個監察院根本不認真。這個批評到現在有錯嗎？還是那個時候不認真，現在很認真？當初不就是你、一樣的人，用件數來處理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝，我跟黃委員報告，第4屆、第5屆、第6屆的平均數其實沒有差距太多，二點多是每個人平均調查的次數，所以這個部分其實各屆以來都沒有太大的差別。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在講的啦！我的標準一樣！你過去怎麼批評人家的，現在就怎麼要求自己！就是這樣的標準！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：就是這樣的標準！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有錯，所以我跟黃委員報告，我到監察院以後，我體認到不一樣的東西就是，其實調查過程比我想像中的複雜，所以我在擔任監察院秘書長以後，瞭解到其實委員相當地認真，調查次數也沒有因為這樣而有減少，第4屆、第5屆、第6屆的平均數都差不多。"],["黃委員國昌：監察院有沒有發揮它的效能？一年花納稅人10萬塊值不值得？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個留給社會公評，我們都是憲政機關。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是留給社會公評！社會對監察院的印象是怎麼樣？不是我們2個在這邊爭論的啦！每一個公民心裡都有一把尺！","來，下一個問題，監察院做為公職人員財產申報法以及政治獻金法的執行機關，請教無償提供動產跟不動產應不應該申報？"],["李秘書長俊俋：動產？財產申報法第五條……"],["黃委員國昌：政治獻金法第二條啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：依據政治獻金法，無償提供的動產或不動產？但是政治獻金法我們不是主管單位啊！我剛才說過了。"],["黃委員國昌：裁罰的機關是誰？"],["李秘書長俊俋：裁罰機關是我們啊！"],["黃委員國昌：是你們嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我的問題就是，如果無償提供動產、不動產沒有申報，要不要裁罰？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我請我們財申處的處長來跟您回復。"],["黃委員國昌：請。"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，還是要看它是不是政治獻金捐贈目的下的無償。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，看一下2020年蔡英文和陳歐珀，這個是競選喔，招牌弄得很大喔！結果他的車子是詐騙集團的首腦無償提供，陳歐珀也承認了嘛！那個時候選舉要跑行程，無償提供給他。第二個，簡報中的這個房子一樣喔，半毛租金都沒有收，無償提供喔！站在這個「蔡英文總統　陳歐珀立委　競選連任羅東後援會」的房子前面、看著那個招牌的人，我跟你們介紹一下，你們可能不知道那3個人是誰。那3個就是曾耀鋒、張淑芬還有他們的友人。無償提供了以後，這3個人看到招牌掛在上面，非常的開心，站在那邊看。這要不要申報？"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，這個案件我們已經有派查，但是因為這個案件目前也在刑事偵審中，所以我們這邊先暫停調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這是兩個部分吧？政治獻金有沒有誠實申報和刑事偵審應該是兩回事吧！"],["陳處長美延：我知道，但是因為這個部分也涉及其他刑事案件裡面的責任，所以我們才會先暫停調查。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼暫停調查？我再跟你們溝通一下觀念：刑事責任歸刑事責任，有沒有接受供養、要不要負刑事責任，跟政治獻金法沒有誠實申報有什麼關係啊？"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員，我跟你報告，政治獻金法有沒有如實申報，這個本來就要依照規定來處理，那您提到……"],["黃委員國昌：現在有依照規定來處理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我現在跟您報告，im.B案現在我們監察院也正在立案調查當中，剛剛我們處長講了，這個部分因為涉及刑事偵查，所以有關財產申報的部分我們現在是暫停。"],["黃委員國昌：刑事偵查部分有沒有犯意聯絡？有沒有行為分擔？有沒有參與詐騙？那是刑事責任的問題。政治獻金法規範的問題是什麼？該申報沒有申報就要開罰了啊！有這麼複雜嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員，我跟您報告的就是，如果刑事偵查沒有出來，我們無從判斷他是不是用政治獻金來捐贈，所以這個部分我們必須……"],["黃委員國昌：我先提一下，陳歐珀自己都承認了，這台車在選舉的時候無償提供給他跑行程，請問你還要怎麼認定？"],["李秘書長俊俋：認定是不是政治獻金，這個部分要等刑事偵查完以後，我們才有辦法確認；這個部分我們不會以陳歐珀怎麼說來做為唯一的依據。"],["黃委員國昌：他就是當事人啊！他就是當事人啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我跟……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候刑事偵查成為監察院不履行職責、放水的擋箭牌？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個不是放水。我們的委員正在針對這個案子進行調查中，而且……"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情發生多久了啊！到現在……"],["李秘書長俊俋：行政罰法……"],["黃委員國昌：到現在還繼續停著！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：包庇嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：放水嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有！"],["黃委員國昌：不敢罰嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，我們是因為刑事偵查所以暫停審查。"],["陳處長美延：根據行政罰法第二十六條的規定，只要我們覺得裡面涉及的行為有這樣的疑慮，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣問好了啦！因為刑事偵查所以一直放著，一天不終結，你們就繼續遲延、繼續放著，對不對？"],["陳處長美延：不是，報告委員，我們隨時都有掌握，刑事偵查的結果我們看了以後，假設真的他……"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！我就問，只要刑事偵查5年不偵結，你們就5年不會動，我說的對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不會，我們會看偵查的內容跟報告，如果偵查……"],["黃委員國昌：你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有刑事偵結，你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告？"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員，我跟您報告清楚，這件事情您提的是政治獻金。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為現在有刑事偵查的問題，這個適不適用政治獻金的方式、項目進來政治獻金申報，我們只管這一部分至於……"],["黃委員國昌：他沒有申報啊，現在我不是管他是不是用政治獻金進去申報，我現在挑戰的是他根本沒申報啊！我有說錯嗎？沒有申報要不要處罰？沒有申報要不要處罰？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，所以我們現在要等刑事偵查完，我們才確認。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很簡單嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有申報當然要處罰，但是這個部分政治獻金是以這樣的方式來捐贈，這個部分我們還需要刑事偵查完以後我們才可以確認。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我的問題很簡單，你要等到偵查完，所以5年不偵查完，你們5年就不會動，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果在這個部分，檢察官有明確表示的話，我們就會依照這樣，不影響到我們政治獻金……"],["黃委員國昌：檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示，說監察院不能動？"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["李秘書長俊俋：檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示？剛剛我們處長已經說明很清楚……"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，其實他的行為也有發生在之前，所以這邊也有刑事責任的部分……"],["主席：好，時間的關係，是不是請我們監察院會後可以將你們更明確的答案提交給黃委員參考，黃委員，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：OK！好。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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所以我跟黃委員報告就是依據相關的規定我們來執行那過去我講的認為地方巡查次數太多那現在改為不是喔 那個時候你是地方巡查自己要廢掉那時候你還斥責監察院阿沒錯該自己廢的報告不廢還要立法院動手黃委員所以現在監察院要不要自己動手黃委員我跟你們報告現在這個部分我們院理正在討論當中什麼時候會有結論這個要看院理我只是幕僚長不是委員"},{"start":303.666,"end":324.279,"text":"所以您當到秘書長了我希望您能夠堅持過去的理想我的看法跟你一樣啊搞這種地方巡查要幹什麼直接把它廢了啦我在院會提過但是委員有不同的意見這個要留給委員討論好我們來看一下對於監察院過去這三年彈劾的績效秘書長覺得滿不滿意"},{"start":327.916,"end":329.076,"text":"好 重點不是案件的多少2014年一樣是您喔"},{"start":345.521,"end":356.531,"text":"痛批我們的監察院一個委員平均一年彈劾不到一件來我們來看一下2023年的時候彈劾了幾件2023年彈劾了20件有一年平均有到一件嗎"},{"start":365.373,"end":382.972,"text":"沒有阿 跟你當初批評的時候一模一樣阿20件是需要經過很多的程序還要審查的所以各個委員其實是相當忙碌了那整個的調查你2014年的時候你的批評阿是一人一年彈劾不到一件阿這個監察院阿根本不認真阿"},{"start":384.053,"end":392.537,"text":"謝謝我跟黃委員報告第4屆第5屆第6屆他的平均數其實沒有差距太多2點多是每一個人平均調查的次數所以這個部分其實各屆以來都沒有太大的差別我現在講的啦我的標準一樣"},{"start":411.622,"end":411.822,"text":"監察院"},{"start":439.42,"end":467.106,"text":"有沒有發揮他的效能一年花納稅人10萬塊值不值得當然當然當然是留給社會公平社會的印象對監察院的印象是怎麼樣不是我們兩個在這邊爭論的啦每一個公民心裡都有一把尺來下一個問題監察院作為公職人員財產申報法以及政治獻金法的執行機關嘛好來請教無償提供動產跟不動產應不應該申報"},{"start":472.287,"end":493.484,"text":"動產 呃 財產申報法的第5條政治獻金法第二條啦政治獻金法無償提供的動產或不動產這是政治獻金法我們不是主管單位阿我剛才說過了財閥的機關是誰財閥機關是我們阿是你們嘛所以我的問題就是如果無償提供動產不動產沒有申報要不要財閥這個部分我請那個我們財政處的處長來跟您回答"},{"start":500.844,"end":526.306,"text":"報告委員還是要看他是不是以政治現金捐贈的目的下個一個無償好來看一下2020年蔡英文這個去競選喔招牌弄得很大喔結果他的車子詐騙集團的首腦無償提供什麼破也承認了吧那個說選舉要跑行程啊無償提供給他第二個"},{"start":527.747,"end":553.121,"text":"這個房子一樣喔半毛的書信都沒有收喔無償提供喔在這一個蔡英文總統陳歐珀立委競選連任羅東後援會站在前面啦上面在看著那個招牌的人啦我跟你們介紹一下你們可能不知道那三個是誰啊那三個就是曾耀峰就是張竹芬還有他們的友人"},{"start":554.691,"end":560.559,"text":"無償提供了以後啊三個看到招牌掛在上面啊非常的開心啊在這邊看啊這要不要申報"},{"start":564.258,"end":569.399,"text":"這兩個部分吧政治現今有沒有誠實申報跟行事的偵審應該是兩回事吧為什麼暫停調查我再跟你溝通一下觀念"},{"start":593.366,"end":602.364,"text":"行事的責任歸行事的責任啊有沒有接受供養要不要負行事的責任跟政治獻金法沒有誠實申報有什麼關係啊"},{"start":605.302,"end":631.191,"text":"委員我跟您報告政治獻金法有沒有如實申報這個本來就要依照規定來處理那您提到現在有依照規定來處理嗎我現在跟您講我現在跟您報告就IMB案我們現在立法我們的監察院也正在立案調查當中那這個部分因為涉及涉及剛剛我們處長有講涉及刑事偵查所以這個部分有關財產的申報的部分我們現在是暫停"},{"start":633.427,"end":636.292,"text":"有沒有犯意聯絡有沒有行為分擔有沒有參與詐騙那個是刑事責任的問題"},{"start":641.977,"end":662.165,"text":"政治獻金法推翻的問題是什麼你該申報沒有申報就要開罰啦有這麼複雜嗎黃委員我跟您報告的就是如果刑事偵查沒有出來我們無從判斷他是不是用政治獻金來捐贈所以這個部分我們必須我先提一下齁陳歐珀自己都承認啦再來抽選舉的時候無償提供給他跑行程請問你還要怎麼認定啊"},{"start":668.307,"end":680.834,"text":"請問你還要怎麼認定啊認定是不是政治獻金這個部分要等刑事偵查完以後我們才有辦法確認那這個部分我們不會以陳歐過怎麼說來作為唯一的依據他就是當事人啊他就是當事人啊"},{"start":684.616,"end":698.704,"text":"什麼時候刑事偵查成為監察院不履行職責放水的擋箭牌這個不是放水 這個我們正在委員正在針對這個案我們正在調查這個事情發生多久啦 到現在還繼續停著包屁嘛 放水嘛 不敢罰嘛沒有 我們是因為刑事偵查 所以我們暫停審查"},{"start":708.626,"end":713.308,"text":"所以我這樣問好了啦他刑事偵查就一直放著一天不終結你們就繼續的遲延繼續放著對不對所以嘛我就問嘛只要刑事偵查5年不增結你們就5年不會動我說的對不對"},{"start":736.98,"end":760.246,"text":"我們會看偵查的內容跟報告你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告沒有沒有形式偵檢你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告黃委員我跟您報告清楚這一件事情您提的是政治獻金是因為現在有形式偵查的問題那這個是不是用政治獻金的方式項目進來政治獻金申報我們只管這一部分"},{"start":760.626,"end":762.947,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單嘛 你要等到偵查完嘛所以5年不偵查完 你們5年就不會動 對不對"},{"start":789.434,"end":816.949,"text":"如果在這個部分這個檢察官有明確的表示的話我們就會依照這樣不影響到我們政治先進檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示說監察院不能動檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示剛剛我們處長已經說明很清楚黃委員其實他的行為也有發生在之前所以這邊也有刑事責任的部分請我們監察院會後可以將你們更明確的答案我們可以提交給黃委員參考好不好黃委員OK好好謝謝"},{"start":818.873,"end":819.499,"text":"下一位我們有請"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}