{"error":false,"id":["149616"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149616,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149616","日期":"2024-03-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-11T09:30:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-11T09:39:38+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300a8cf82bfe79bce4fee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:30:54 - 09:39:38","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時31分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：早！最近人民滿苦的，電價要漲，現在連掛號費都要漲了，重要的防線就是公平會，請公平會這防線一定要守住，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我問你比較具體的，今天早上最新的新聞，光是雙北（臺北及新北市）就有265家的醫療院所準備要漲掛號費了，其中新北市170家、臺北市95家。針對這個事情，主委，公平會要查嗎、會查嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會去瞭解這些漲價的情形，因為每一個醫療院所漲價的原因很多，如果是講好要一起漲、要漲多少，這個在公平法絕對不允許。"],["張委員啓楷：就像你剛剛說的，如果要查，依照你們的規定就是有沒有橫向、有沒有區域性，像剛才說桃園那兩間被你們罰，它就有區域性、有橫向聯繫。現在看起來區域性有了，看起來滿多的，是不是去查一下有沒有聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：這我們來瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們很明確地跟我們的全國民眾講，公平會現在會去瞭解雙北為什麼這麼多醫療院所準備要漲價了。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會後會去瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：這個防線要守住，我們希望很快有結果，回去馬上就做了，對不對？會後就去查！"],["李主任委員鎂：會，會去瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：會後就去查，OK？"],["李主任委員鎂：會去瞭解這些醫療院所，因為有一些是關係企業，或者科別、地理區域各方面都不太一樣，我們會來瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，謝謝。現在看起來人民最關心的就是健保費會不會一窩蜂，就是社會學跟心理學講的破窗理論，你現在這件事情查不好的話，這兩百多家一漲，全國就漲了，人民真的很苦，一定要守住。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我具體的問你，除了要去查新北跟臺北這個之外，你們有沒有什麼很具體的動作、具體的行動？除了你剛剛講的請衛福部要注意之外，你們有做了什麼事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：第一個就是我們全省各地的地方衛生單位都可以合作，如果在他們所轄的醫療院所有不合理或是異常的情況，我們會有一個緊密的合作機制。我們同仁方面，因為掛號費多少，基本上是透明的，網路上可以查，透過這些機制，我們也可以來瞭解，所以科別、地理區域、是不是關係企業，還有它的漲價情況，這些都是我們會掌握的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：民眾感受最深嘛！所以民眾檢舉的話，你們這邊是不是有一個什麼反托拉斯基金？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，我們歡迎檢舉，檢舉獎金很高，只要讓我們啟動調查，最低就從10萬塊起跳，我們會根據檢舉人提供證據的價值，分別有10萬到100萬、10萬到1,000萬，假設被我們查到超過5億以上，獎金可以到1億。我也在這裡跟各位宣傳，我們的檢舉電話2351-0022，歡迎各界檢舉。"],["張委員啓楷：所以就是民眾現在去看病發現掛號費漲太高或是不合理，可能有聯合漲價的行為，就跟你們檢舉。你說最高的是1,000萬？"],["李主任委員鎂：個別漲價不是我們去規範的……"],["張委員啓楷：對，看有沒有聯合行為嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：但是有聯合行為我們會查。"],["張委員啓楷：可是他只要注意到有問題，他就當吹哨者嘛！民眾就可以跟你們檢舉了。你說最高是1,000萬？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是民眾來檢舉，我們有合理懷疑且啟動調查的話，最低就是10萬塊，最高可以到1億元。如果他有具體的事證，我們分三級，有幫助我們調查的這種證據是10萬到100萬；如果這個證據是間接證據，可以10萬到1,000萬；如果是直接證據，一目瞭然就得到聯合的證據，那就是10萬到2,000萬，會看我們罰鍰的額度來決定獎金的多少。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以現在是全民跟公平會攜手合作，防止不當的漲價，包括最高獎金有30%？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們如果罰到5億以上，最高獎金是20%，可以到1億，就是獎金額度的20%。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，公平會一定要守好這個防線。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個我要問電價的問題，這個防線也是很重要的。這個案子公平會是不是神助攻？啓楷這段時間一直在提醒，電費要漲之前，好好去跟民間的電廠檢討兩個，9家民營買電是不是買太貴，以及太陽能發生那麼多弊案，到底裡面有沒有買太貴、弊案怎麼發生？要重新去議價。公平會跟9家民營電廠的官司，現在公平會贏了，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為當時我們是處分9家有聯合的行為，違法聯合這個事實行為法院是認定的，這一部分我們是勝訴，只是我們每一家要罰多少錢，法院認為我們這個罰鍰的認定還有問題，所以針對罰鍰的部分，請我們再斟酌。"],["張委員啓楷：所以等於經過法院長久的訴訟之後，法院認定台電是可以去跟這些民間電廠，甚至太陽能的購電公司好好去議價，對不對？現在只是台電要漲價之前，是不是應該好好去談、先去議價？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想台電跟電廠之間也許有一些訴訟或是有一些契約的問題，這部分我們不是很清楚，但是針對9家民營電廠在當時、十幾年前聯合起來拒絕跟台電重啟契約的談判，我們是針對這個聯合……"],["張委員啓楷：這9家民營電廠不只是占台電的便宜，他們是占我們人民的便宜，現在人民在反感什麼？現在台電一直虧損，包括這也是造成虧損的一個重要因素，虧損完之後，漲電價了，人民要付錢，結果民間業者賺了錢。公平會這個助攻非常重要，你們罰了它錢，現在經過長久的訴訟，歷經十幾年，最近定案了，最高行政法院包括憲法法庭都判你們贏，對不對？就是他們有聯合行為，這個已經是確認了，接下來要問的是，你們要罰它多少錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這個案子打了很久的時間，目前還在行政訴訟當中，在罰鍰的部分，法院希望當事人能有一些磋商的機制，目前在訴訟法上進行當中。"],["張委員啓楷：這個案子很重要是因為現在要漲電價了，所以本席今天為什麼要問這麼重要的問題？當初9家民營電廠跟台電說，我的燃煤價格、我的天然氣漲了，所以你要多給我一點錢。可是當台電提出來說，那你的利息要從8%降到2%的時候，後來台電讓它那邊漲了，可是它卻食言而肥，它是聯合行為嘛！所以這個對民眾來講是非常重要的，台電應該積極去爭取，現在不是急著漲電價的時候，應該先去看看跟9家民營電廠到底合約要怎麼訂？因為它被你們處分了，如果一年有十億到二十億，十幾年下來有一、兩百億再回到台電，那就不用漲人民的價格了，對不對？你們神助攻，我們現在呼籲台電要去做這件事情，現在你們當務之急，就是好好的跟9家民營電廠弄清楚，它到底要罰多少錢？你們本來是要罰63.2億，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：總共加起來。"],["張委員啓楷：現在改罰60.7億，什麼時候可以確定要罰多少錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個要看行政法院處理的情形跟進度。"],["張委員啓楷：最新的進度很明確，它有聯合壟斷的行為，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：聯合事實是確定的，但罰鍰到底多少還沒確定。"],["張委員啓楷：只剩罰鍰，那大概多久以內罰鍰可以確認？"],["李主任委員鎂：據我們的瞭解，3月份法院會再開庭，那就看法院審理的速度是怎麼樣。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝公平會的神助攻，這個防線一定要守住，不管是掛號費或是電價，幫人民守住這個防線。謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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