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10:17:06","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時6分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委早。主委，還是因應之前幾位委員有問到的衛福部取消掛號費的備查制，取消備查代表的意義是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：備查機制在衛福部有相關的做法。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們現在取消備查，跟掛號費未來會怎麼波動？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解是將來……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們的判斷呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解是將來各醫療院所的掛號費要收取多少，由各醫療院所各自去決定。"],["蔡委員易餘：由各醫療院所自己去決定嘛！如果過去是備查的話，過去是不可以決定嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不管是過去或是現在，都不可以有聯合定價的……"],["蔡委員易餘：你沒有回答我的問題，我的意思是說，如果是備查的話，過去他們還是可以決定他們的掛號費嘛！只是因為他們備查，衛福部掌握了這個資訊，掌握這個資訊的同時也可能多少會牽制到他們掛號費的漲價，是不是這個意思？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：未來就是取消備查，所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊是不管的。","好，現在就跑到公平會的問題了，所以未來你們就會有這個責任啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想請教的是，如果針對診所漲掛號費，因為取消備查，他們之後……他們之前就可以漲，但是他們現在漲了，那你們要怎麼認定它有聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，如果是各漲各的，這個不會有違法的行為。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！問題就來了，這麼多診所……"],["李主任委員鎂：如果有聯合行為……"],["蔡委員易餘：這麼多診所，如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了100塊，隔天第二家診所看到它漲了我也要漲，也要漲100塊，第三天第三家也漲了100塊，然後一個禮拜內這一條街的7家診所全漲了100塊，那這樣是不是聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個是跟漲的行為，我想在商場上跟漲的行為也是常見。"],["蔡委員易餘：常見嘛！但是他們不是聯合行為嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：要提到公平會是……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為聯合行為必須是他們對於契約的主要內容有一定默契的形成，有一定的合意嘛！有這樣的合意形成，才會變成聯合行為，所以我只能告訴你，事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉，你們也不會查。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們會看情況，但是你們查不出什麼東西來啦！除非你們你們有抓到他們有……這一家診所和七家診所可能有個飯局，然後大家講好我們一起來漲，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，如果有證據的話。跟委員說明，我們去年就查到了，桃園有兩家聯合，這個有證據，有一些可以查得到。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我知道你們去年有查，你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合行為。"],["李主任委員鎂：所以還是要看我們掌握證據的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，但是我只能跟你說，這件事事實上……我希望你們可以掌握，但是我不覺得公平會在這件事……因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛！那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼，所以這就是我在說的，公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們的武器比你們想像的還要小，你們也管不到什麼。","我要進入下一題，現在網路詐騙這麼多！網路詐騙事實上都是透過像Facebook、像IG這一種Meta的平臺，很多，它們是大宗，對於這樣的網路詐騙，公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：網路詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責，所以在網路詐騙部分，公平會也參與行政院的打詐小組，如果網路上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告，我們有主動監控，我想在分工上，針對詐騙的部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們主動監控，但是你們到底監控了什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會把常常發生不實廣告的類型去監控……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我現在就給你看，網路上常常會出現一些名人，包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委，他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資，這個會不會很誇張？但是它確實存在，也不只他們兩個，也許主委的照片、名字也被冒用，也變成在對一些不知道的人喊話，請他們加入，結果後來變成詐騙，像這樣的話，臉書也沒管，縱使我去陳情這個是有問題的，那有用嗎？你們對於這樣的國際大平臺有辦法去處罰或者是要求必須要針對這樣的作為怎麼做嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果是詐騙或者是投資方面的各種詐騙行為，基本上，在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間，因為我們處理的是不實廣告。"],["蔡委員易餘：比較沒有空間，對啊！但是我們接觸了這樣的臉書，我們接觸臉書，卻充斥了這樣的詐騙，我相信他們平臺的後臺一定可以知道，這個詐騙集團都用相同來源去重複註冊，然後去註冊了一堆這樣的帳號，只是他們的來源可能是外國，所以你們抓不到，問題是他們抓得到啊！他們一定知道到底是哪一些族群去大量註冊這樣的帳號，他們知道嘛！所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰，請他們針對這樣的行為來遏止，有辦法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：投資這一部分，我的瞭解是證券投顧法相關法律裡面有要求後臺對於託播者要有實名制的規定，我想透過這個實名制在投資這一部分可以處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：託播者的實名制，那是他們的後臺去要求，可是那個實名制都很容易被破解啦！因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣，對不對？然後提供有效的帳號，那個他們都整組的，因為他們都到處去蒐集個資，他們還是有辦法破解啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是這樣，對啦！主委，事實上，韓國在去年底針對Meta公司就有提出了一個審查報告，針對類似這樣跨國的電子商務平臺，他們就有在做這樣的審查，你看韓國也是這樣做，所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧！"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員報告，其實網路上的平臺也有很多不實廣告，我們過去也邀請了這些平臺，不管是國內或者是Meta，來共同討論如何去解決這一些不實廣告的問題，這個我們也有請業者來談。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然有討論，一定會有一些結論。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：那些結論有沒有落實？現在重點在這裡，不能只是一直在做討論，你們還是要有一些結論的落實。","好，我最後再講一個議題，就再1分鐘就好。事實上，主委，你們也要想，你們公平會還是要面對一個問題，現在整個臺灣的貸款，幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到融資公司，這些融資公司通常都是在金控公司下面，所以他們這個融資公司和這個金控公司有沒有做一些客戶資料的共享或者是銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司，讓融資公司可以瞬間掌握這些客源或者是他們和車商，這中間有沒有資料的共享，這件事公平會要不要管？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想如果是客戶資料的共享，這可能是涉及到個人資料保護法的議題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們是不同公司，可是他們是同一個集團的，這個事實上大家都知道，像和泰有和潤的租賃，現在整個臺灣的貸款幾乎很多都擠到融資去了，融資事實上不受金管會的監管，你們公平會管嗎？公平會照理要管啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，個人資料保護的洩漏或者客戶資料的共享如果有涉及到競爭秩序，當然公平法有處理，如果不是涉及到競爭秩序，而是個資的保護問題，那應該是適用個資法。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們不可以把自己的權力都限縮得這麼小，現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了，然後他們不受金管會的監管，所以他們這個貸款後續衍生很多的問題，到目前為止叫做無法可管，就回到民法而已，我覺得公平會針對這樣的態樣應該還是要去思考你們到底可以管什麼，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們不能所有都是在等人家檢舉，再事後去做調查，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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主委那還是因應之前幾位委員有去問到衛福部取消這個關澳費的一個備查制 那取消備查它代表的意義是什麼查機制在衛福部有相關的這個他們的做法"},{"start":48.63,"end":74.135,"text":"對阿阿取消被查跟這個掛號費未來會怎麼的怎麼的波動我的了解是將來各醫療院所他的這個掛號費要收取多少各醫療院所各自去決定就各醫療院所自己去決定那如果過去是被查的話過去不可以決定嗎不管是過去或是現在都不可以有聯合聯合"},{"start":76.251,"end":102.062,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題。我的意思是說,如果是備查的話,過去他們還是可以決定他們的掛號費。只是說因為他們備查,那衛福部掌握了這個資訊。那掌握這個資訊的同時,也可能多少會牽制到他們掛號費的漲價。是不是這個意思?那未來就取消備查,所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊他們是不管的。"},{"start":102.862,"end":122.048,"text":"好 那現在就跑到了公平會的問題啦所以未來你們就會有這個責任啦好 那我想要請教是說如果針對診所漲掛號費因為取消備查然後他們之後他們之前就可以漲但是他們現在漲了那你們要怎麼認定還有聯合行為基本上如果是各漲各的這個"},{"start":124.969,"end":147.594,"text":"對阿問題就來了阿這麼多診所好阿如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了一百塊那隔天第二家診所誇他漲了我也要漲那我也漲一百塊那第三天第三家也漲了一百塊然後一個禮拜內這一條街的七家診所全漲了一百塊那這樣是不是聯合行為"},{"start":149.714,"end":171.808,"text":"我想在商場上跟這樣的行為也是常見常見嘛但是他們不是聯合行為嘛因為行為必須他們對於契約的主要內容有一定的默契的形成有一定的合意嘛有這樣的合意形成才會變成聯合行為所以我只能告訴你事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉你們不會查"},{"start":174.005,"end":201.682,"text":"我們會看情況但是你們查不出什麽東西來除非你們有抓到說他們有這一家診所的七家診所引五顆零一個飯局然後大家講好說我們一起來漲是是如果有證據那跟委員說明我們去年就查了桃園有兩家聯合那這個有這個證據對我知道你們去年有查你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合新聞所以還是要看我們掌握的證據情況對但是我只能跟你說這件事事實上"},{"start":202.923,"end":225.423,"text":"我希望你們可以掌握但是我不覺得公平會在這件事因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼所以這就是我要講的公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們武器比你們想像的還要小你們管不了什麼所以我要進入下一題"},{"start":227.771,"end":246.888,"text":"來,現在網路詐騙這麼多那網路詐騙事實上都是透過這種像Facebook、像IG這種Meta的平台很多啦,他們是大宗那你們對於這樣的網路詐騙我們公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎?"},{"start":251.231,"end":269.812,"text":"網絡詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責所以在網絡詐騙部份公平會也參與行政院的一個打詐的小組那如果網絡上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告那我們有主動監控我想在分工上針對詐騙部份你們主動監控但是你們到底監控了什麼來下一頁"},{"start":272.862,"end":295.813,"text":"會把常常發生不實廣告的類型...好那我現在就給你看整個網路上常常會出現這些名人這個包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資這會不會很誇張"},{"start":297.469,"end":315.98,"text":"但是他確實存在啊,也不僅他們兩個啊,像我們也許主委啊,你的照片啊,你的名字也被冒用,然後也變成在對於這一些不知道的人,然後去做那些喊話,請他們加入,結果後來變成詐騙。那像這樣的話,臉書也沒管啊。"},{"start":323.506,"end":337.759,"text":"那縱使我去澄清說這個是有問題的那有用嗎?你們對於這樣的國際大平台有沒有辦法去去處罰他們或者是要求他們必須要針對這樣的作為要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":339.255,"end":362.929,"text":"如果是詐騙或者是這個投資方面的各種的這些詐騙的行為基本上在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間比較沒有空間嗎對啊但是我們接觸了這樣的一個臉書啊我們接觸臉書卻充斥了這樣的詐騙我相信啦依他們平台的他們平台的後台啦一定可以知道說這個詐騙集團一定是"},{"start":365.45,"end":385.351,"text":"多用相同來源然後去做重複註冊然後去註冊了一堆一堆的這樣的一個帳號只是說他們的來源可能是外國所以你們抓不到問題他們抓得到啊他們一定知道啊到底是哪一些族群然後去大量的註冊這樣的一個帳號應該嘛"},{"start":389.613,"end":391.794,"text":"阿所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰,請他們針對這樣的行為來做遏止阿,有辦法嗎?"},{"start":397.303,"end":419.043,"text":"現在投資這一部分我的了解是那個政見投顧法相關法律裡面有要求要這個後台是不是要脫波者是不是要有實名制的這些規定那我想透過這個實名制在這個脫波者的實名制那是他們後台去要求可是那實名制都很容易被破解啦"},{"start":420.044,"end":441.028,"text":"因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣 對不對 然後提供有效的這個電子帳號 啊 他們那些都整組的啦 因為他們都到局去收集個資啊 他們還是有辦法破解啊啊 這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任 就是這樣啦 對不對 但是我來下一頁"},{"start":444.906,"end":470.606,"text":"主委,事實上韓國在去年底他們事實上針對這個米塔公司他們就提出了一個針對他們的一個審查報告事實上他們就是要講對類似這樣的國際跨國的一個商業平台電子商業平台他們就有在做這樣的一個審查那這樣的一個審查你看韓國也是這樣做"},{"start":471.977,"end":491.69,"text":"所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧?各位我們其實也網路上平台有很多不實廣告我們過去也邀請了這些平台還有國內不管是國內或者是Meta邀請這些平台來共同協討論如何去解決這些不實廣告的一個問題那這個我們也有"},{"start":496.893,"end":524.306,"text":"既然有討論一定會有一些結論嘛那些結論有沒有落實啊這是現在重點是這樣不能只是一直在做討論啊你們還是要一些結論的落實啊好我最後再講一個議題啦我最後講一個議題就再一分鐘就好就是讓主委你們要想你們公平會還是要面對一個問題現在整個台灣的一個貸款幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到這個叫做什麼"},{"start":526.066,"end":552.918,"text":"融資貸款融資公司那是這些融資公司呢 通常都是在金控公司下面喔所以他們這個融資公司跟這個金控公司有沒有做他們一些客戶資料的一些共享或者是他們這些融資公司為什麼這個銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司然後讓融資公司可以瞬間可以掌握這些客源或者是他們跟車商"},{"start":555.018,"end":573.527,"text":"那這中間有沒有資料的一個共享那這件事公平會要不要管我想如果是客戶資料的共享這可能是涉及到這個個人資料保護法的議題對可是他們是他們是不同公司可是他們是同一個集團的嘛這個是讓大家要知道嘛"},{"start":574.663,"end":590.045,"text":"像何泰他們也有他們何潤的一個主任那現在整個台灣的整個貸款幾乎很多都擠到融資去了然後融資事實上他不受金管會的監管那你們公平會管嗎?公平會到底要管啊?"},{"start":590.987,"end":606.979,"text":"基本上個人資料保護的這個洩漏或者是客戶資料的共享在如果有涉及到競爭秩序那當然公平法有處理如果不是涉及到這個競爭秩序而是個資的保護問題那應該是使用個資法現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了然後他們不受金管會的監管"},{"start":615.625,"end":615.826,"text":"謝謝蔡易餘委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}