{"error":false,"id":["149638"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149638,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149638","日期":"2024-03-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-11T10:08:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-11T10:19:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005688a4573bca2102aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a69acd615108665c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:08:28 - 10:19:50","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時8分）主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：這樣子對談有沒有比較輕鬆一點？"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為我第8屆的時候也是這樣，然後第9屆改了，所以我都適應。"],["傅委員崐萁：蠻好的。請問秘書長，監察院自古以來叫御史大夫，這是非常、非常重要的，它負責對於所有官員的考評、官箴、官德所有的查詢，要為一個國家樹立好文官制度，監察院是非常重要的查核單位，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院是一個重要的憲政機關，我們處理的就是公務員的違法失職。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，現在行政院片面宣布從6月1號開始，臺灣不能組團客赴大陸，臺灣人民依照中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告，這個部分屬於政策的討論，監察院不便有任何意見，政策的討論是行政院跟立法院的事情，監察院不便有任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在問你中華民國人民有沒有遷徙的自由，你講到哪裡去嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：當然有遷徙的自由，自由旅行也可以啊。"],["傅委員崐萁：對呀，既然有遷徙的自由，為什麼中華民國人民不能組團去全世界他想去的地方呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我跟傅委員報告的是，這個牽涉到政策的討論，這個政策討論是由行政院跟立法院你們討論，監察院不便有任何的意見。我們現在也沒有接受到任何的陳情案。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你剛剛已經承認了中華民國人民有遷徙的權利……"],["李秘書長俊俋：本來就有，憲法都有規定了。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以行政院這個片面的政策很明顯就是違憲的。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個不能這樣講，政策的討論由行政院跟立法院來處理，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒關係，我謝謝你剛剛已經回答了本席的問題。","再過來，蘇丹紅的問題剛剛羅委員有提到很多，2018年在我們的邊檢就已經查出來，不但沒有沒入銷毀，還把它退回，這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息；再加上民進黨有好幾位委員都表示，蘇丹紅早在2021年、2023年衛福部就已經知道了，為什麼還造成現在陳建仁院長宣布這已經是一個系統性的風暴、系統性的問題。請問一下秘書長，海關有沒有人謀不臧？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟傅委員報告，2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查，蘇丹紅的調查是上個禮拜我們有委員自動調查，我們監察院只能查這樣……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在沒有請教你監察院有沒有失職，你不要緊張嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有緊張。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席沒有問你是不是失職，你不要這麼緊張，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我一點也沒有緊張，我只是報告事實。"],["傅委員崐萁：你立法委員的個性又上身了，是嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我只是報告事實……"],["傅委員崐萁：你現在是秘書長欸，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我跟傅委員報告事實。"],["傅委員崐萁：請和顏悅色一下，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席還沒有講完，你不要講得……"],["李秘書長俊俋：不好意思，我沒有講什麼。"],["傅委員崐萁：第一個，本席問你，如果高雄地檢署說的屬實，海關有沒有失職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我們都在調查中，調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：衛福部有沒有失職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不便發表任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：地檢署偵查不公開都已經講了，你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位？"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告……"],["傅委員崐萁：我不曉得陽光照不進來喔！你們監察院連陽光都照不進來……"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告，這是調查中的案子，作為幕僚長，我本來就不能有任何批評。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在請教你，第一個，海關；第二個，衛福部早就知情，為什麼還造成這種系統性、這麼大的風暴？再過來，食藥署說：哎呀，臺灣人民沒有關係，蘇丹紅就跟喝茶、喝咖啡一樣。這實在有夠誇張！秘書長，你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們上個禮拜自動調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：大概什麼時候可以出來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟它的性質有關，我們要看是一般案件、重大案件或是特殊重大案件。"],["傅委員崐萁：大概多久？關係到全民健康的問題嘛！食安問題何等重要啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是一般案件的話是3個月，重大案件是6個月，特殊重大案件是1年，我們有分3類，要看調查委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請教一下，這麼簡單的案子屬於哪一種案子？你告訴本席。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分要由委員來決定，不是由我來決定。"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，依照你的經驗，你都做到秘書長了，監察院秘書長判斷不出來嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：各個委員對每一個個案有不同的意見，我不便表達任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：你的意思是說要拖1年，是嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不懂……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個算是國家重大案件嗎？有這麼難查嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：就這個部分，我跟傅委員報告，監察院監察委員依憲法獨立行使職權，作為一個幕僚長，我不便做任何的評斷，他們要列為一般案件、重大案件或是特殊重大案件，這不是我的權責。"],["傅委員崐萁：你到立法院來報告，你不能一問三不知嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有一問三不知，我很清楚地告訴委員監察院的規定是什麼。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，本席就靜候，看你們辦案的能力有沒有像辦羅智強立委這麼快。本席就看你是3個月、6個月、還是1年辦出來，我們拭目以待。","再過來，陸配4年入籍還是6年入籍，4加2是6年，一般的外配是3加1、4年。我們現在請教一下，如果陸配由6年改為跟所有外籍配偶一樣是4年，這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約？符不符合？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我回應傅委員兩個意見。第一個，我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別，這是一個；第二個，陸配跟外配適用是法規是不一樣的，陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例……"],["傅委員崐萁：兩岸人民關係條例嘛！本席很清楚啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，外配的話是移民法，所以兩個本來就不一樣，相關的規定也會不同，兩個東西放在一起……"],["傅委員崐萁：相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛！大院可以修法、可以調整啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：修法是立法院的事情……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以本席在問你有沒有符合兩公約啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：修法是立法院的事情。"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有人權平等的問題啊！有沒有國籍平權的問題啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我跟委員報告，如果要平等，到底平等的定義是什麼？我們現在最重要的就是追求不論膚色、階級、所有的平等……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席剛剛請教您的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約，有還是沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：適用的法規不同，我無法跟傅委員做明確的表達。"],["傅委員崐萁：你連國際兩公約對人權的基本保障，秘書長，你都判斷不出來！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有判斷不出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：汗顏啦！汗顏啦！汗顏啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您講得很清楚……"],["傅委員崐萁：五院院長的秘書長，國際人權公約你回去再study，本席下次還會請教你！本席下次還會請教你！"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您表示得很清楚，我想你立法委員當這麼久，你很清楚兩岸人民關係條例跟移民法是不一樣的。"],["傅委員崐萁：再問你……"],["李秘書長俊俋：你拿不一樣的東西來比較……"],["傅委員崐萁：打詐現在越打越詐，到底我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況？監察院還在睡覺嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有睡覺，監察院很清楚地跟行政院表達……"],["傅委員崐萁：還是如同李登輝先生講的，都在「打蚊子」，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，打詐的部分，監察院在上次行政院的巡察之中非常清楚地報告，而且這個部分我……"],["傅委員崐萁：報告怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：請行政院嚴格地督導這件事情的成效。"],["傅委員崐萁：上次什麼時候？什麼時候請它嚴格督導？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會請行政院給我們一個報告。"],["傅委員崐萁：民進黨執政8年，每一年都向上攀升啊！監察院做了什麼？本席在請教這個問題。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有關打詐的個案，我們其實查得也不少。您說有沒有跟行政院提醒、通知……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席沒有要你調查打詐，你又不是第一線人員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：當然不是我，是我們的委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們必須對行政院這些部會考核嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，所以我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：他們做了什麼嘛？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我跟傅委員報告，上次、就是去年年底的時候，我們還有特別跟行政院提到這件事，這是在中央巡察的時候講的。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年年底，是順便提到，是不是？這是國民多大的痛苦指數啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們本來就有中央巡察，巡察的時候還特別列出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席都接過多少次詐騙電話，相信秘書長你也接過很多次詐騙電話。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，大家都很關心這個議題。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺灣人民不分老幼，每一個人平均接到至少10次以上的詐騙電話。"],["李秘書長俊俋：大家都很關心這個議題。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺灣是無政府狀態嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我們特別提醒行政院要注意這個事……"],["傅委員崐萁：提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是我們上次在中央巡察的時候……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們糾劾了哪些人？糾彈了哪些人？"],["李秘書長俊俋：糾彈了哪些人，我跟……"],["傅委員崐萁：還在提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟傅委員報告，這個要依個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：國民這麼大的痛苦指數，你們還在提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫個案！全民的公案，什麼叫個案！"],["李秘書長俊俋：每一個案都要以個案來看，監察院做的就是個案調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：部會做了什麼成績？本席在請教這個問題，什麼每一個都個案！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我們要求行政院針對這件事情討論嘛。"],["傅委員崐萁：好啦，你講個案，本席再告訴你什麼叫個案。不要講8年，5年就好，近5年詐欺案、打詐案的統計，108年度2萬3,647件，109年2萬3,054件，110年2萬4,724件，111年2萬9,509件，112年（去年）3萬7,984件，一次膨脹百分之三十幾，顯示政府幾乎已經失能、已經癱瘓了！可以一年成長百分之三十幾的詐騙率，國會不能夠請教、就教於監察院嗎？你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾舉、什麼樣的彈劾？這種成績可以嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告，查詐騙、打詐的部分是行政院的職責，不是我們監察院的職責……"],["傅委員崐萁：部會有沒有失職是誰的職責？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們監察院只能針對在個案裡邊……"],["傅委員崐萁：部會有沒有失職是誰的職責？誰來糾舉？誰來彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我現在跟您說明，就個案裡面公務員有沒有違法失職才是我們監察院的工作，我也特別告訴您，這件事情大家都很關心，全民都很關心，所以我們特別提醒行政院，在去年年底中央巡察的時候把它列為一個議題，然後後續的成果跟後續的檢討要由行政院做，不是由監察院來做。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼時候我們臺灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事，減少人民的痛苦跟壓力？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們也希望這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席拭目以待。"],["主席：謝謝傅總召，謝謝李秘書長。","主席在這裡再三要跟我們委員會報告、跟傅總召報告，本委員會除了發言臺已經按照其他委員會的方式先設置之外，司法及法制委員會有一個跟其他委員會略有不同的地方，司法及法制委員會可能是唯一憲法的其他憲政機關，五院的其他關係院會到本委員會就預算項目、就立法計畫列席說明，這不同於行政院對立法院負責，由立法委員對行政部門官員進行質詢。今天我們排定的議程是監察院113年度的立法計畫，也希望我們各位委員在司法及法制委員會當中秉持憲法第七十一條的規定，我們是邀請關係院的院長及各部會首長來列席陳述意見，今天陳述意見的主題是監察院113年的立法計畫，監察院不是來這邊做施政報告，有請各位委員明察。","接下來有請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由"},{"start":77.335,"end":84.371,"text":"我跟委員報告 這個部分屬於政策的討論 監察院不便有任何的意見政策的討論是行政院跟立法院的市值"},{"start":85.367,"end":90.269,"text":"所以我跟傅委員報告的是這個牽涉到政策的討論 這個政策討論是由行政院跟立法院你們討論 這個監察院不必有任何的意見"},{"start":109.898,"end":110.418,"text":"2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年"},{"start":137.423,"end":163.914,"text":"就已經查出在我們的編遣就已經查出來不但沒有沒入銷毀還把它退回這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息再加上這個民進黨有好幾位委員都表示蘇丹紅早就在2021年2023年衛福部就已經知道了"},{"start":165.158,"end":178.496,"text":"為什麼還造成現在陳建仁院長宣布這已經是一個系統性的風暴系統性的問題請問一下秘書長海關有沒有人模不彰"},{"start":180.073,"end":191.241,"text":"這個我跟部委員報告2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查蘇丹紅的調查我們是上個禮拜有委員自動調查那我們監察院只能查這樣我沒有緊張我只是報告事實我只是報告事實對我跟部委員報告事實謝謝不好意思我沒有講什麼"},{"start":210.553,"end":223.539,"text":"若高雄地檢署說的屬實海關有沒有失職這個部分我們都在調查中調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見衛福部有沒有失職我不便發表任何意見"},{"start":225.202,"end":250.044,"text":"地檢署偵查部不公開都已經講了 你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位我不曉得陽光照不進來我作為幕僚長我本來就不能有任何批評第一個海關 衛福部早就知情為什麼還造成這種系統性的這麼大的一個風暴再過來食藥署說 哎呀台灣人民沒有關係啦"},{"start":251.665,"end":279.812,"text":"蘇戴洪就跟喝茶喝咖啡一樣啦齁這實在有夠誇張啊秘書長你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來我們上個禮拜自動調查大概什麼時候可以出來調查案這個應該是重大的跟他的性質有關我們要看是一般案件重大案件或是特殊重大案件大概多久嘛這關係到全民健康的問題嘛如果一般案件的話是三個月重大案件是六個月那重大特殊案件是一年"},{"start":280.945,"end":282.887,"text":"你都做到秘書長了 監察院的秘書長你判斷不出來嗎你的意思說要拖一年是嗎"},{"start":302.625,"end":326.559,"text":"這個算是國家重大案件嗎有這麼難查嗎這個部分我跟部委員報告監察院監察委員一現把他獨立行使職權我作為一個幕僚長我不便做任何的評斷那他們要列為一般案件或是重大案件或是特殊重大案件這不是我的權責你不能疑問三不知嗎我沒有疑問三不知我很清楚的告訴監察院的規定是什麼本席就靜候"},{"start":331.363,"end":334.044,"text":"陸佩4年入籍4加2是6年一般的外配是3加1是4年"},{"start":360.902,"end":368.547,"text":"我們現在請教一下,如果陸配偶6年改為跟所有外籍一樣,這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約?"},{"start":378.004,"end":391.74,"text":"我回應副委員兩個意見第一個我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別這是一個第二個陸配跟外配它適用的法規是不一樣的"},{"start":392.661,"end":421.903,"text":"陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例那外配的話是移民法所以兩個本來就不一樣那相關的規定也會不同相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛當然可以修法可以調整啊所以本席在問你有沒有符合國際人權兩公約啊有沒有人權平等的問題啊有沒有國際平權的問題啊我跟委員報告如果要平等到底平等的定義是什麼"},{"start":422.463,"end":448.631,"text":"那我們現在最重要的就是 追求不敷階級的這個所以剛剛請教您的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約有還是沒有適用的法規不同我無法跟副委員做別的訓練國際兩公約對人權的基本保障秘書長你都判斷不出來我沒有判斷不出來這我跟副委員我跟你講得很清楚五院院長的秘書長"},{"start":450.829,"end":458.213,"text":"國際人權公約你回去再study本期下次還會請教你本期下次還會請教你再問你啊這個打詐齁現在越打越詐到底啊我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況監察院還在睡覺嗎沒有睡覺 監察院很清楚的更新"},{"start":478.271,"end":479.552,"text":"民進黨執政8年每1年都向上攀升阿"},{"start":500.472,"end":501.212,"text":"昨年年底是順便提到的"},{"start":529.806,"end":553.961,"text":"這是國民多大的痛苦指數啊我們本來就有中央巡查巡查的時候還特別列出來相信秘書長你也接過很多次詐騙電話是臺灣人民不分老幼對不對每一個人平均不要接受至少10次以上的詐騙電話大家都很關心這個議題臺灣是無政府狀態嗎所以我們特別提醒行政院要注意這個提醒這是我們上次在中央議場的時候你們糾合了哪些人糾談了哪些人糾談了哪些人臺灣在提醒"},{"start":558.604,"end":577.536,"text":"我跟副委員報告這個要一個案這是個案本席什麼叫個案全民的公案什麼叫個案每一個案都要以個案來看嘛監察院做的就是個案調查部會做了什麼成績嘛本席在請教這個問題嘛所以嘛我們每一個都個案所以嘛我們要求行政院好了你講的個案本席在告訴你啦什麼叫個案不要講8年啦5年就好啦"},{"start":584.656,"end":591.04,"text":"近5年炸雞案的統計打炸案了108年度23647件109年23054件110年24724件111年29509件112年去年37984件一次膨脹了30幾%這幾乎是政府已經試了已經癱瘓了"},{"start":621.237,"end":638.305,"text":"這國會不能夠來請教就教於監察院嗎?你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾取?什麼樣的彈劾?這種成績可以嗎?副委員我跟你們報告這個查詐騙打詐的部分這是行政院的職責不是我們監察院的職責"},{"start":639.125,"end":639.165,"text":"什麼時候"},{"start":669.607,"end":674.574,"text":"臺灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事 減少人民的痛苦跟壓力"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}