{"error":false,"id":["149666"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149666,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149666","日期":"2024-03-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-11T10:58:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-11T11:09:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430044717f5257b6a23caf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a62acfd9f0a57c55585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:58:15 - 11:09:50","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時58分）請國安局蔡局長、國防部柏副部長、空軍參謀長、海巡署副署長。"],["主席：請蔡局長、柏副部長、空軍參謀長、海巡署副署長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：蔡局長，香港基本法第二十三條公布之後，對國人到香港的商務或者旅遊的人身安全或者是言論自由，會不會造成很大的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關立法的過程我們在密切的關注，預計大概可能在未來的幾個月內就會通過這個立法，這個法案已經講了幾十年，我從二、三十年前就曾經針對這議題來評論……"],["邱委員志偉：所以在未來幾個月就會通過立法？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["邱委員志偉：立法對國人在香港旅遊或者商務的行為，會不會造成很大的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要注意，到時候看它的法律條文，一般來講中共通過的法律條文……"],["邱委員志偉：它說在境內，境內有沒有包括機場？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它的境內還有它所謂的……"],["邱委員志偉：機場包不包括？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然要注意啊！它有可能在你通關的過程當中……"],["邱委員志偉：所以國人轉機，譬如說我要經過香港轉機……"],["蔡局長明彥：要注意、要注意，確實要注意。"],["邱委員志偉：要非常注意還是要小心注意？"],["蔡局長明彥：就是要特別注意。"],["邱委員志偉：你看我都不敢經過那裡，我都不敢經過香港轉機啊！你也不敢嘛？政府官員都不敢吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，我們不會過去。"],["邱委員志偉：政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機，如果這個香港基本法通過之後，對不對？你只要讓他發現你有發表過對中國不利的言論或者批評的言論，你就可能按照香港基本法被抓走了。"],["蔡局長明彥：不過跟委員報告一下，在香港相關的國安法規通過之前，現在就已經有國人在過境香港時被約談。"],["邱委員志偉：過境香港？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在過境香港被……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有被拘留？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，有被約談。"],["邱委員志偉：那就根本一國一制，就不是一國兩制啦！就一國一制啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，這就是要特別提醒國人要注意的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：所以香港不是一個特別行政區，香港變成中華人民共和國的一個香港市或者香港省，就是類似這種概念，它不是一個特別行政區。所以國人去香港時，相關的人身自由、言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嘛！是不是這樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：要注意有這樣的發展趨勢。"],["邱委員志偉：你要提醒國人喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們會利用這個機會來警示國人。"],["邱委員志偉：我可能這一輩子不會去香港了，連轉機都不可能，因為它是中華人民共和國的一省或一個市嘛！另外要討論一下臺海的問題，每天有那麼多的機、艦去干擾，特別是他們的主力戰機，我為什麼會請柏副部長？因為柏副部長是空軍出身，我為什麼請空軍參謀長？就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到中國那麼多機、艦的干擾，甚至越過海峽中線，我們有沒有掌握局部空優？還是我們有自信是全面性的空優？請柏副部長說明。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於局部和全面空優應該是當時這個敵對的狀況，不過在空軍來講，就目前……"],["邱委員志偉：如果擦槍走火了，在交戰的時候我們有沒有空優？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，基本上以一個飛行員來講，就是在我們所有火力涵蓋的範圍裡面，事實上，我們是掌有絕對的空優。"],["邱委員志偉：絕對的空優？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，為什麼呢？因為他是暴露在我防空火炮的範圍裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：但是他們的數量也比較多啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這跟數量和你的戰略、戰法都很有關係，但是基本上來講，敵近我遠或……"],["邱委員志偉：所以不是以量取勝，我們是以質取勝，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我要這樣講，所有戰機都有它的優缺點，但是在乎的是什麼？就是那個飛行員，因為飛行員的訓練非常重要。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你講到飛行員，我就擔心會不會有飛行員斷層的問題，飛行員的養成不易。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，委員是岡山的委員，所以特別瞭解，我們的訓練從來沒有停過，至於飛行員的補充，事實上是按照我們座艙比來做調節。"],["邱委員志偉：你要有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍，特別是戰鬥飛行員的行列。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我很擔心我們有好的戰機，但是沒有人力來執行這個空優的戰略，這個是我擔心的問題。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講，我們的飛行員都是足夠的。另外，對於新進人員招募的工作我們從來沒有間斷過，那我想我們今天……"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你不要報喜不報憂，我瞭解實際狀況是滿嚴峻的，人力的補充還是一個很大的議題。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這可以藉由任務的調節來調節飛行員量的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：因為高強度、長時間的戰略壓力，有很多飛行員面臨到很多身心上的壓力，對不對？這樣長期下來當然會對他們的身心狀態造成影響，所以人力的補充很重要。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我也希望局長以你的高度，你自己去協調各個相關的國防單位，所以局長要認識、要瞭解如何去解決空軍飛行員戰力的問題。副部長，你有信心可以解決這個問題嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於您所提到的問題，我想我們空軍長久以來，不單只是空軍，國軍所有人力招募的工作從來沒有停止過。"],["邱委員志偉：據我的瞭解，我擔心共機的干擾是長時間的，這不是1天、2天而已，所以造成我們飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員的關心，我們在任務上會調整。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我們有沒有可能再增加高教機的數量？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：那初教機我是希望要國機國造，目前你們對初教機有什麼戰略規劃呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，因為我們現在高教機仍然是在交機的階段……"],["邱委員志偉：初教機也要規劃啊！初教機也要汰換啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，事實上，我們初教機從以前到現在沒有停止過規劃，那在評估的規劃上面來講，空軍始終在這個方面做評估，那事實上我們真正……"],["邱委員志偉：不能始終在評估，你要進入實質的規劃階段了，你要有一個方案出來。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然有方案，我們空軍提了三種方案。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向，這樣我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量，才能掌握我們自己的核心技術嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，所有的國機國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的，那在這個過程當中，我們必須要看我們所有國防產業發展的現況。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在初教機是要外購還是由我們自製還沒有定案？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這沒有定案，還在評估，要到122年的時候它才會發生問題。"],["邱委員志偉：112年？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：122年。"],["邱委員志偉：到122年你才會開始做規劃嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們現在就已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。"],["邱委員志偉：國安局蔡局長，你覺得初教機要國機國造還是要外購？"],["蔡局長明彥：這一部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。"],["邱委員志偉：這個我們再找時間來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["邱委員志偉：那有一個原則要把握，還是要國機國造啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這是我們的政策方向。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，影響中國國家穩定的因素包括社會穩定的問題、經濟的因素，包括國際的因素，也包括臺灣的因素，我剛剛說了會影響中國國家穩定的這四個因素，你覺得在未來這兩三年其中哪個因素的影響會最強烈？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的。"],["邱委員志偉：就是社會經濟的問題嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，以中共政權來講，重視的還是內部的穩定。"],["邱委員志偉：社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，美國拜登總統和未來可能是他競爭對手的川普，他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵。"],["蔡局長明彥：差不多。"],["邱委員志偉：誰勝誰負尚難論定，臺海一旦發生戰事，他們這兩個可能成為美國總統的人對於如何介入臺海有沒有相關的劇本規劃或者因應的戰略？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這兩位有一位是現任總統，有一位是前任總統……"],["邱委員志偉：就你所掌握的訊息裡面，從拜登或川普在過去所發表的言論，或者川普在上一任的時候，臺海一旦發生戰事，他們有沒有做相關戰略因應方案的評估？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，拜登總統曾經4次公開講他對於臺海情勢的關注，以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護臺海的安全；那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案。"],["邱委員志偉：必要的行動也許不包括軍事行動，我是講軍事介入的這個部分、協防臺灣的這個部分，協防臺灣就牽扯到指管通情的合作，就你們所掌握的資訊，拜登跟未來可能是總統的川普有沒有什麼因應方案？臺海一旦發生戰事的時候，他們有沒有軍事介入臺灣或者協防臺灣的戰略規劃文本？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們都有做相關印太安全情勢的評估以及預案的準備。"],["邱委員志偉：他們兩個都有就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：一直都有，美國整體的印太戰略對於可能突發的狀況他們都有相關的因應。"],["邱委員志偉：我再講30秒，兩岸有可能發生局部的衝突，一個就是在海峽中線，一個就是在金門，一個就可能在太平島，局長，你有去過太平島嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["邱委員志偉：本席在第2屆當召委的時候曾經去考察過太平島，以現階段兩岸的情勢來看，海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層，甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的國防委員會適不適合在現階段去太平島考察？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估，因為畢竟現在南海的情勢是比較升溫的，那在過程當中任何……"],["邱委員志偉：相對不敏感的，如果立法院國防委員會或是經濟委員會要考察南海經濟海域的問題，你覺得在這個時候去適不適合？"],["蔡局長明彥：在行政作業上國防部應該有一般的行政作業流程。"],["邱委員志偉：安全性沒有問題嘛！我是覺得有必要性，從形式上、宣示上或者實質上都有它的必要性，但是採取相對不敏感的，就是用立法院來……"],["主席：好，謝謝，因為時間的關係。"],["邱委員志偉：再10秒鐘，讓我請海巡署說明。"],["主席：簡單回答或是之後再向委員報告，好不好？"],["張副署長忠龍：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：海巡署，如果立法院組一個考察團去太平島，你們會全力協助嗎？"],["張副署長忠龍：如果政策決定，我們全力配合。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們署裡面的高層有沒有去過？或是海委會有沒有去過？"],["張副署長忠龍：都去過。"],["主席：謝謝，不好意思喔！好，接下來請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇"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8.679,"text":"請國安局蔡局長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長"},{"start":22.217,"end":48.559,"text":"對國人到香港的商務或者旅遊的人身的安全或者是這個言論自由會不會造成很大的影響對相關的一個立法的過程我們在密切的關注預計大概可能在未來的幾個月內就會通過這個立法那這個法案已經講了幾十年我從二三十年前就曾經在未來幾個月都會通過立法對國人在香港旅遊或者商務的行為"},{"start":49.6,"end":78.842,"text":"會不會造成他的影響對 要注意對 因為看到時候看他的法律的條文那一般來講中共通過的法律條文他說在境內在境內境內有沒有包括這個機場對 他的境內還有他的所謂的機場包括機場包括我當然要注意阿他有可能在你通關的過程當中所以國內轉機 比如說我我要去轉機經過香港轉移確實要注意要非常注意還是要小心注意就是要特別注意我看 我都不敢經過那裡"},{"start":80.851,"end":92.283,"text":"我都沒經過香港轉機啊你也不敢嘛齁政府官員都不敢吧不會我們不會過去政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機如果你這個香港基本法這個通過之後"},{"start":93.251,"end":98.252,"text":"不過跟委員報告一下現在在通過香港的那個基本那個那個相關的國安法規之前現在就已經有國人在過境香港被約談過境香港對在過境香港被有沒有被拘留"},{"start":120.72,"end":133.526,"text":"所以香港不是一個特別行政區香港變成一個中華人民共和國的香港市或是香港省類似這種概念它不是一個特別行政區"},{"start":134.835,"end":160.011,"text":"所以國人去香港的這個相關的人身自由言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嗎?是不是這樣?要注意有這樣的發展趨勢你是要提醒國人喔?有,我們會用這個機會來提示國人我可能這一輩子啊,我不會去香港,連轉機都不可能因為它是中華人民共和國的一省嘛,不能一個市嘛另外討論一下這個"},{"start":162.665,"end":190,"text":"台海的問題每天那麼多的基建去干擾特別是這個他們的主力戰機為什麼請博副部長博副部長是空軍出身為什麼請空軍參謀長就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到這個中國那麼多的基建的干擾甚至在越過海的中間我們有沒有掌握局部空優還是我們有這個有自信是全面性的空優"},{"start":191.704,"end":213.355,"text":"那個請國防部副部長報告委員有關於這個局部公安全面空優應該是當時的這個敵對的狀況不過在空軍來講就目前張相洲交戰的時候我們有沒有空優報告委員基本上來講一個飛行員來講就是說在我們的所有的火力涵蓋範圍裡面事實上我們是長有絕對的空優"},{"start":214.275,"end":214.395,"text":"國防部副部長"},{"start":229.861,"end":249.452,"text":"所以不是一樣取勝,我們是以質取勝,對不對?是的,重點...那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越。報告委員,我要這樣講,所有的戰機它有它的優缺點,但是在乎的是什麼?是那個飛行員。飛行員的訓練非常重要。對啊,你講到飛行員我就擔心,會不會有飛行員斷層的問題?"},{"start":250.453,"end":254.295,"text":"有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍,特別是戰鬥飛行員的行列。我很擔心說我們有好的戰機,但是沒有一個人力來執行這個空優的戰略。"},{"start":276.808,"end":300.707,"text":"這個是我擔心的問題報告委員您現在目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講我們的飛行員都足夠的那另外一個對於一個新進人員的這個招募的工作我們從來沒有見斷過那我想我們今天我希望說你不要報喜不報憂我是了解實際狀況是蠻嚴峻的人力的補充還是一個很大的議題這可以借到任務的調節來調節飛行員的他的量的問題"},{"start":303.849,"end":332.165,"text":"高強度、高長時間的這個戰略的壓力．很多的這個飛行員是．面臨到很多身心上的壓力．對不對那長期以來這個當然會．對他們的這個身心狀態造成影響．所以能力補充很重要．我也希望局長以你的高度．你自己協調各個相關的國防單位．所以局長你要認識．你要了解如何去解決．空軍飛行員戰力的問題．"},{"start":334.454,"end":358.963,"text":"那個副部長你有報告委員有關你所提到的問題這個我想我們空軍長久以來不但只是空軍國軍所有的人力的招募工作從來沒有停止過我都了解啦我是擔心說這個共機的這個干擾這個長時間的這不是一天兩天所以造成我們飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大謝謝委員的關心另外高校機我們有沒有可能再增加數量"},{"start":360.063,"end":360.483,"text":"國防部副部長邱志偉"},{"start":375.274,"end":377.956,"text":"我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量才能掌握我們自己的核心技術"},{"start":402.774,"end":419.626,"text":"保委員我跟您報告所有的國機、國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的那在這個過程當中我們必須要看我們這個所有的國防產業的發展現況所以現在副部長其實要外購還是要我們自製還沒有定案這沒有定案還在評估要到122年的時候它才會發生問題112年"},{"start":423.749,"end":437.333,"text":"一百二十二年,你才會開始做規劃嗎?我們現在都已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。那個國安局,蔡局長,你覺得是需要一些國機國造還是要外購?這部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。這個..."},{"start":440.902,"end":467.626,"text":"我們再找時間來討論好那一個原則要把握還是要國際國造有這是我們的政策方向那另外影響中國國家穩定的因素包括它的社會穩定的問題經濟的因素包括國際的因素也包括這個台灣的因素你覺得現階段是哪些這四個上我剛剛所說四個因素是哪四個這四個因素裡面這個最目前現階段在未來這個兩三年影響中國國家穩定這四個因素哪個最強烈"},{"start":468.246,"end":474.829,"text":"我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅另外美國拜登總統或者是未來可能他們的競爭對手又可能川普他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵誰勝誰負還尚難定料"},{"start":496.701,"end":524.956,"text":"他們兩個可能的總統．對於如何介入台海．如果台海一旦發生戰事．他們介入台海．有沒有相關的劇本規劃．或者因應的戰略因為這兩位總統．一位是現任總統．一位是前任總統你所掌握的這個訊息．你從拜登或者是從川普．在過去所要的言論．或者川普在上一任的時候．"},{"start":526.196,"end":549.615,"text":"對台海如果一旦發生戰事有沒有做相關的這個戰略因應的方案的評估有就那個拜登總統他曾經4次的公開講他對於台海情勢的關注那以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護台海的安全那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案必要行動不包括也許不包括軍事行動"},{"start":551.345,"end":553.546,"text":"對他們都有做相關印太安全的情勢的評估以及預案的一個準備"},{"start":579.888,"end":583.33,"text":"我再30秒,這個如果兩岸一旦會有可能發生局部的衝突,一個就是在海峽中線,一個就是在金門,一個就可能在太平島,太平島,那個局長你有去過嗎?"},{"start":605.558,"end":630.075,"text":"本席在第二屆當召委的時候我曾經考察這個太平島以現階段的兩岸的情勢來看這個海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層這個甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的這個國防委員會適不適合現階段去這個太平島考察"},{"start":630.646,"end":649.873,"text":"我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估因為畢竟現在在南海的情勢是比較升溫的那過程當中相對不敏感的如果立法院國防委員會或是我是以經濟委員會考察這個南海經濟海域的問題你覺得這個手續適不適合"},{"start":654.54,"end":654.9,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":680.362,"end":692.64,"text":"如果立法院組一個考察團去太平島,你們會全力協助嗎?如果政策決定,我們全力配合。那你署裡面的高層有沒有去過,或者海委會有沒有去過?都去過,謝謝,不好意思喔,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}