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11:34:59","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時26分）請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我想今天非常多的委員在討論有關不在籍投票，我想先跟你請教一下，這次2024的總統大選，你認為在選務上面有沒有什麼值得檢討或者是應該要改進的地方？"],["李主任委員進勇：這次我們碰到最大的一個風險就是境外介選的挑戰……"],["黃委員珊珊：選務上的。"],["李主任委員進勇：在選務上，是有一些瑕疵存在……"],["黃委員珊珊：介選應該不是你的問題，你是負責選務上面的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們要回應，我們要回應，避免它來……"],["黃委員珊珊：好。第一個，主委，我們台灣民眾黨在選舉的時候其實有相關的監票人員，他們在投開票當天通報了將近上千次的異常狀況，我們也整理出了相關的異常狀況，也正式地向中選會提出檢舉，每一個投開票所的異常狀況我們都標示地很清楚，有幾個狀況主委也看到了，但是我想知道現在有沒有改善？第一個，領票數與得票數有不符的情況，包括很多投開票所得票數大於領票數，這是怎麼一回事？"],["李主任委員進勇：在開票的過程裡面的確是會有一些誤差……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，為什麼會這樣？為什麼會得票數大於領票數？就是他們沒有確實地清點所謂的領票數，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：清點的過程裡面可能會有一些疏失……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以人民會看到這種消息，你會覺得它不是瑕疵嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是很重要的是他在當場會被指正……"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：當場會被糾正……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是我們相關的選務人員對於相關的這些程序並不是那麼瞭解，所以發生這種狀況，他最大的問題就是在開票之前沒有公布領票數，最後出來投票數比領票數還多就是因為沒有清點完成就開始開票，這是第一個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都特別地要求……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，這個很多，非常多啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：你在開票之前一定要宣布領票人數。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個如果不能解決的話，你的公信力一樣是有問題啊！","第三個，很嚴重的就是，主委有看到這次檢舉的很多影片嘛！先整票再唱票，嚴重不嚴重？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是絕對不應該發生的事。"],["黃委員珊珊：不應該發生，但是有沒有發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：有發生。"],["黃委員珊珊：發生很多，而且為什麼他們成為習慣耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是很多啦！不是很多。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們至少有幾十個影片，都有傳給你。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有那麼多，沒有那麼多！"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，所以應該要怎樣？拿一張票唸一張，才去記票，才去整票，對吧……"],["李主任委員進勇：對、對、對，檢票……"],["黃委員珊珊：先整票再唱票是不對的行為……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：大家糾正，他們也不改進，然後主任管理員不處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：當場有糾正的話，就一定改進，那沒有問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有人糾正他就可以繼續這樣嗎？你看到的影片都是繼續做，整理好了才讓大家開始唱啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想主任管理員必須要負起這個責任……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有沒有糾正？有沒有檢討？將來還會不會再發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每次都有檢討，都必須提出精進的作法。"],["黃委員珊珊：2024了，這一次總統大選再發生，你不可能之前沒檢討過……"],["李主任委員進勇：有去檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：三令五申，照樣不聽！","第四種，投開票的報告單填寫不實，很多內容還算錯，連數學都不會加，這種狀況會讓人民對選務機關的公信力產生很大的質疑。"],["李主任委員進勇：這是極少數的個案，我們沒有辦法保證24萬……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要改進嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：要改進，沒有問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：你連數學都不好，現場都算不清楚，民眾拿出來看的就是你們的瑕疵很多啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們除了加強公務人員的訓練之外，另外就是複核的機制一定要建立。"],["黃委員珊珊：就沒有啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：有啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：最嚴重的是，投票的時候不能錄影，開票的時候可不可以錄影？"],["李主任委員進勇：開票的時候可以錄影。"],["黃委員珊珊：可以，那為什麼我們有一個案子是警察把錄影的民眾趕出去？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是不是毫無限制的，還是有一些……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，依照規定他在觀眾席不要影響到開票，他就可以錄影，對吧？請你大聲的跟人民說，可以錄影，不要干擾到開票行動。"],["李主任委員進勇：根據相關的規定原則上是可以錄影，但是不能夠違背相關的規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以錄影在開票過程是沒有違法的，也不應該被警察趕走，對吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：被警察趕走，我們要瞭解他到底是基於什麼理由……"],["黃委員珊珊：案子都送給你們了，你們好好查吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有查，28個案子我們都有查。"],["黃委員珊珊：這次最重要的是有很多民眾檢舉的是票軌的底部沒有封條，自從用了紙箱以後，底部沒有封條的狀況這次是不是很多？"],["李主任委員進勇：我所瞭解的好像只有單獨的個案。"],["黃委員珊珊：單獨的個案，但是影片都交給你們了，表示民眾都檢舉得到，它就不會只是單純……，在開票前就應該封好封條，給大家看完之後才能開始用，他們連封條都不上是怎麼回事？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的資料就是只有一個單獨的個案……"],["黃委員珊珊：我這邊就有7、8件，我們都送給你們了，麻煩你們也看一下吧！至少照片上面，大概有7、8個投開票的都有這個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每個案子都有進行了解調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，其實我希望的是你給我一個2024年總統大選的檢討跟精進改善報告，剛剛講的這些瑕疵有多少？檢討了沒有？怎麼做？將來要怎麼改？總要有一個完整的說明。"],["李主任委員進勇：貴黨團所提供的這一份資料，一共有六個類型，28個案例……"],["黃委員珊珊：不會只有我們吧！一般民眾也很多吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們進行調查的結果，其中有4個案子大概有一些事實的出入，20幾個案子我們都有調查……"],["黃委員珊珊：請你給我調查報告、檢討報告。"],["李主任委員進勇：會回復給貴黨團。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後就是剛剛講的不在籍投票，我想大家不用再爭執，臺灣是一個先進的國家，全世界的科技大概臺灣最先進，但是現在政府對於所謂的投票，你們在110年做過一個民意調查，其實大部分的人沒有去投票的原因很清楚，第一就是要上班、要工作，沒有空、沒時間；這二個是最多的，另外投票所距離太遠、返鄉成本太高，這些也是沒有去投票的原因。當然，不想投票或沒有適合的候選人，這也是另外的原因，但是要上班、要工作、沒有時間占了大部分的原因。臺灣身為科技大國，我們現在可以用自然人憑證做所有的公共服務，為什麼沒有辦法用自然人憑證來進行數位投票？愛沙尼亞他們用數位身分證進行i-Voting，他們這次的國會議員25%是用線上投票，主委，如果我們把數位認證做好，確定是本人的意願，一樣可以像移轉投票的方式來進行所謂的線上投票，用嚴格的資訊控管，包括我們現在政府既然接受自然人憑證，沒有道理不接受用自然人憑證來投票，臺灣的科技絕對不會比愛沙尼亞差……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員也到過臺北市選委會，關於這些問題的討論我相信委員也能夠掌握到……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都明白，所以我的意思是，總要往前走……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們要走，但是這部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在是2024年，中選會成立的時候是1980年，44年過去了，從這次的總統大選就看到，我們做的事情是跟44年前一樣，出的錯跟44年前還是一樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們這一步要跨出去真的很艱難，所以從110年到現在都沒有辦法在立法院裡面完成這第一步的立法程序……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要往前走，想出方法、儘量想辦法。第一，先請你給我報告；第二個，電子認證可能是你們擔心的不在籍投票的其中一個解方，以上。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","下一位請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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