{"error":false,"id":["149695"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149695,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149695","日期":"2024-03-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-11T11:41:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-11T11:51:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43003f016d0c271d72a77e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a65eaf658b2cb262835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:41:59 - 11:51:31","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1122,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時42分）謝謝主席。有請陳主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委，剛剛早上我們在成立調閱小組時聽到你一席話，我覺得認識你到現在，我們終於有共識了，就是政治干預這四個字出來了，確實，這幾年我發現NCC很強烈地政治操弄、干預，不是立法委員干預。你知道我們為什麼成立調閱小組？這個遲到了半年到1年的調閱小組終於成立了，原因是什麼？你今天提供我們什麼報告？半年你正式提供1次報告……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們向大院報告過5次了，相關資料……"],["魯委員明哲：我說你的業務報告，年度大會的時候你跟我們委員會提那個報告……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是、不是，上年度就針對鏡電視有5次，還有包括調查報告……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，簡單來說大家要關心的事項，你在裡面幾乎沒有什麼提，在你的回答，坦白講我從第1個聽到剛剛第12、13個，你的回答將近兩年都避重就輕……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有避重就輕，事實上就是如此。"],["魯委員明哲：所以我覺得如果你真的有政治干預的話，你想想看10年前的陳耀祥是什麼概念？你經過自由時報採訪時，我跟你認識，第2次我就把這句話拿出來請教你，今天非常可能是你這會期的畢業會期，你說了什麼話？我們臺灣形式上是民主社會，但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動，一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會，最可怕的是，黨國意識形態透過教育也就是108課綱以及媒體不斷地複製，就像河水一樣，如果一直加入有毒物質就會一直擴散，這是一種思想的污染，你這句話是我第二個認同你的。我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊，如果你到這個會期就結束了，我真的覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話。","既然你當主委，有兩個代表作，第一個是中天撤照，這是你第一個代表作……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不予換照，不是，我們沒有撤照。"],["魯委員明哲：不予換照……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這兩個在法律上不一樣。"],["魯委員明哲：反正中天不予換照、撤照記者會，你們在記者會時說什麼？你保證沒有政治力介入……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["魯委員明哲：7位鑑定人想法一致，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["魯委員明哲：這是你的說法。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好，你不知道什麼是綠營的背景，但是有一種藥物叫做時間，時間可以證明很多東西，當時7位你不知道他有什麼綠營背景的人，這是前3位，第1位是在去年擔任民進黨中央黨部，去年、前年的仲裁委員；第2位、第3位平步青雲、戰功顯赫，已經變成民進黨不分區的立委，是我們這一屆的同事。所以我覺得這個國家的NCC交給你，你好像一個小白兔一樣，已經這麼明顯了，你還可以眼睛瞪很直，在那邊鬼扯；另外4位當然有深綠的，有一位是華視、公視的董事，誰派的大家心知肚明，另外一位是第一證券的獨立董事。所以你說的這個話，你的第一個代表作，這7位所謂聽證的鑑定人在你的眼中是非常中立的，沒有藍綠的背景，是還是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！"],["魯委員明哲：到現在還是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是他到目前為止沒有那個啊。"],["魯委員明哲：好。就是兩位已經變成民進黨立委了，哇！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會變成民進黨的不分區，不知道啊。"],["魯委員明哲：我們的調閱小組成立得太重要了，因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有鬼扯……"],["魯委員明哲：這就是中天的情況。","再來看看，對於深藍、深綠你怎麼處理，你一直講你獨立、你一直講你中立……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["魯委員明哲：你一直講你公正，但這要展現在你所有的行政處分跟態度上面，三立中嘉案，你現在的處理，我憑良心講，輿論不滿意的非常、非常多，對於三立中嘉案的處分是限期改正，對不對？鏡電視我整整跟你講了一年，所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年，結果他在選舉前開政論節目，你們叫限期改正，不要鬧笑話好不好？選舉都結束了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：警告啦，不是限期改正。這個本來法律就是規定這樣，我們只能這樣去處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：不是，那沒人在鳥你NCC啊，你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎？我要是你，我都覺得很痛苦，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以委員，這就是為什麼我們要修改廣電三法。"],["魯委員明哲：你做的負擔處分，人家不理你，你做的所有附加條款，它違反這麼多，你也弄不了它，所以很多問題都是這樣。","我今天想再請教你，做個結論，看看你對中天、三立、鏡電視的態度的差別，這也當作你畢業的幾大傑作，你們NCC103次委員會第3案就討論到中嘉三立這個案子，其中是不是有兩位委員提供了不同意的意見書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啊，我們委員會制本來就是這樣啊，可以提不同意見書。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你很怕立法委員干預你們委員的獨立性，結果兩位委員提出這個不同意見，你鳥都不鳥他，你不用干預，你根本不鳥他！我覺得很奇怪，他說了什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是啊！這個照議事規則本來就是這樣處理。"],["魯委員明哲：好，你講，這兩位主要不同意意見的理由在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們認為這個是垂直整合的問題，但問題是我們目前所查到的資料，三立是三立的大股東，而且這個部分來講，到底是業務的投資還是什麼，依照那個比例算起來根本……"],["魯委員明哲：不知道？現在還是不知道是業務的投資還是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，它的投資比例根本沒有達到所謂垂直整合的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：我的天啊！全國聽NCC，我想不只是主委，下面的這些官員真的也是非常可悲，人家提的有沒有道理？這不是我提的，白紙黑字，這不是我提的，兩位委員的不同意見書……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯，這是委員不一致、不同意見的問題，會議制本來就是這樣。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道。主要意見是什麼？他講得有道哩，為什麼呢？你不會說一個人騙我們或他不老實，他已經違規、違法了，他做了不能做的事情，只是因為他騙了我3年，我不知道，所以在這3年我本來知道不該給他的，我也給了，你現在事後知道了，你要不要處理？他的意見就是這樣。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然啊，要處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：107年就開始，三立透過多層次入主中嘉，你們也查了，也違規、違法了，這就不要講了，他的意思是說，到了112年9月立法委員提出檢舉後你才知道這件事情，這兩位委員的意思就是說，不能110年它已經幹了這個事情，然後三立財經移頻通過、110年12月換照通過，然後111年5月、112年7月新聞台換照通過，這個都不算啦！你告訴我們說它下次再換照的時候，它上次就騙我們，你要怎麼處理？這兩位委員……不是我說的喔，兩位委員說這個都要重審，那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們在相關的案子裡面我們本來就要它就這個部分重新說明，沒有錯啊，我們手中還有很多、還有一些三立的案子在處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：那你這準備重審嗎？移頻要把它移回來嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們要開委員會再討論嘛，因為這本來就是合議制，不是我一個人可以決定的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，我跟你講鏡電視，你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間啦，討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了！我講真的，我看到你做主委，這不是肝膽忠魂啊，我看到NCC在你極端地帶領之下，我們看到的是不中立、不公平、不獨立，如果要給你四個字，你真的在我面前表現的是綠膽忠魂！這是我個人對你的看法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有辦法接受這樣的說法啦，謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：沒事，你就帶著走。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.96534375,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.45034375,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.81909375,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.17284375,"end":64.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":68.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.19346875000001,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.93596875,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.08346875000001,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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你的畢業會期齁你說什麼話我們形式上 台灣形式上是民主社會但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會最可怕的是黨國意識形態透過教育哇108課綱嗎還媒體不斷的複製就像河水一樣"},{"start":135.882,"end":158.396,"text":"如果一直加入有毒物質就一直擴散這是一種思想的汙染你這句話是我第二個認同你的我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊你自己如果就到這個會期就結束了我真的是覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話"},{"start":159.909,"end":182.549,"text":"好 既然你當主委嘛 有兩個代表作代表作 第一個是中天撤照這是你第一個代表作不予換照反正中天不予換照撤照記者會你們在記者會都說什麼咧你保證嘛 沒有政治力介入七位鑑定人想法一致 對不對這是你們的說法"},{"start":184.704,"end":187.407,"text":"好,你不知道什麼是綠營的背景啊但是有一種"},{"start":203.592,"end":203.652,"text":"所以．"},{"start":231.474,"end":231.854,"text":"二、華視公視董事"},{"start":251.34,"end":278.934,"text":"所以你說的這個話第一個代表作啊這七位所謂聽證的鑑定人齁就是在你的眼中是非常中立的沒有藍綠的背景是還是不是是啊當下還是嘛到目前為止沒有那個啊好就是兩位已經被民進黨立委了我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會被民進黨的部分區不知道這個我們這個調皮的小組啊成立的太重要了"},{"start":279.514,"end":284.753,"text":"因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛這就是中天的一個情況再來看看"},{"start":286.448,"end":315.497,"text":"對於生難生慮你怎麼處理你一直講獨立嘛你一直講你中立嘛你一直講你公正但是這要展現在你所有的行政的處分跟態度上面三立宗家案你現在的處理我平常講輿論不滿意的非常非常多當然宗家的處分三立齁是限期改正嘛對不對競電事我整整跟你講了一年嘛所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年啊"},{"start":316.517,"end":332.662,"text":"結果他在選舉前開政論節目你們叫限期改正不要鬧笑話選舉都結束了這個本來我們法律就規定這樣子我們只能這樣去處理不是那你NCC沒人在鳥你你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎"},{"start":333.442,"end":354.928,"text":"所以我要是你我都覺得很痛苦你知道嗎你的負擔人家不理你你的所有的負擔條款違反了這麼多你也弄不了它所以很多的問題都這樣的好那我想今天再請教你做個結論看看你對中天、山立、靜電視你的態度的差別這也當作你畢業畢業的幾大傑作這個你們"},{"start":361.335,"end":376.664,"text":"NCC1103次委員會第三案就討論到宗家三立這個案子那其中是不是有兩位委員提供了一部不同意的意見書 有沒有所以你怕 你很怕立法委員去干預你委員的獨立性啊 請問兩位委員"},{"start":386.149,"end":386.689,"text":"他們認為說這個是垂直整合的問題"},{"start":402.338,"end":424.119,"text":"但是問題是說我們目前所查到資料山栗是山栗的大股東而且這個部分來講的話他到底是業務的投資還是什麼這個有沒有依照那個比例算起來不知道現在還是不知道是業務的投資不知道是什麼他的投資的比例根本沒有達到所謂的垂直融合的哇全國聽NCG我想不是主委啦那下面這些的官員啦"},{"start":425.04,"end":428.323,"text":"主要意見是什麼他講得有道理嘛他為什麼呢你不能說一個人騙我們或他不老實"},{"start":444.059,"end":460.489,"text":"他已經違規違法了他做不能做的事情只是因為他騙了我三年我不知道所以在這三年我本來知道不該給他的那我也給了那你現在事後知道了你要不要處理他的意見就這樣109年107年就開始"},{"start":466.465,"end":491.9,"text":"我們三立反正透過多層次入主宗家反正你們也查了嘛也違規違法了嘛這就不要講囉他的意思是說你到了112年9月立法院委員提出檢舉之後你才知道這件事情這兩位委員的意思就是說哎喲他不能110年他已經幹了這個事情然後三立財經移平通過110年12月"},{"start":494.742,"end":513.72,"text":"換照通過然後111年5月112年7月新聞台換照通過這個都不算啦你告訴我們說他下次喔下次再換照的時候他上次就騙我們你要怎麼處理這兩位委員不是我說的喔兩位委員說這個都要重審"},{"start":514.801,"end":542.217,"text":"那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎我們所以是在實驗在有些相關的案子裡面我們本來就是他這個部分要重新說明沒有錯啊這個案子我們手上還有很多還有一些三例的案子在訴訟那你就準備重審嗎沒有那我們要我們在討論嗎因為這個本來就不是我一個人可以決定的問題好啦我跟你講進電視啊你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間了後面討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了齁"},{"start":543.823,"end":543.843,"text":"謝謝魯明"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}