{"error":false,"id":["149736"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149736,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149736","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T09:21:06+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T09:32:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903178d8ca05e5ea3a4b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:21:06 - 09:32:20","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時21分）謝謝主席。是不是請朱主計長？"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，你好。我請教，總統大選過後，內閣已經進入看守的階段，總統當選人賴清德對內閣人士應該有展開在布局。主計長，媒體對你的去留有所評論，你自己也有定見，我請問，以近二十年來在公務生涯的你的觀察，為什麼經濟成長沒有辦法完全轉嫁到薪資呢？依您的看法。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，這個跟產業結構有關係，因為……"],["林委員德福：跟產業結構有關係。"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們一方面是在往高的科技，而高科技業的薪水已經蠻好了……"],["林委員德福：所以因為高科技帶動，但其他那些很多一般產業沒有拉上來？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個的話，我們可能要利用各種措施，像最低工資的提高、各種的把它的經營環境變好，甚至提供一些社會福利措施……"],["林委員德福：沒有轉嫁到這些薪資上面，甚至於連比例分配都有難度！","臺灣人均GDP在2022年超過南韓，這是二十年來的首見，是2022年，但是2023年又被南韓反超，主計總處的官員表示，按照臺韓今年經濟成長預測的推估，今年臺灣人均有機會再度超車南韓。主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有做這個估計。"],["林委員德福：沒有做這個估計喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為臺灣與韓國相比，以前是我們低於韓國很多，最近我們跟韓國是非常接近，受影響的，在這邊說什麼超越南韓，主要是看匯率的因素，前年我們匯率是貶值比較小，去年相對於貶值比韓國多，所以會有那個差距，我們應該是跟自己比較，我們的經濟成長率最近幾年來平均都比韓國高。"],["林委員德福：主計長，去年人均GDP換算新臺幣將近92萬，請問你認為國人的薪資有多少百分比可以達標？"],["朱主計長澤民：平均的話，我們大概有百分之三十多、四十左右。"],["林委員德福：可以達標？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["林委員德福：主計長，大家看得到政府經濟成長的數字，多數人的薪水真的是跟不上，落後一大截。多數人薪資水準低，GDP數字所呈現出的消費水準高，請問主計長，對比數字與實際薪資所得的水平，難道你不覺得邏輯不通、荒謬至極嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個沒有邏輯不通，因為它的分配的話，剛才委員有提到，有些成長比較高，有些成長比較低，所以我們就應該用剛才我一直強調的，要用重分配的政策，提高社會福利的支出，也應該做一些所謂的低收入戶的補助，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：主計長，疫後通膨的控制似乎有成效，但是面對高物價難降的這些，多數百姓都是苦不堪言！他們的痛苦指數一直在飆高，在520新任總統就職之前，舊政府準備電價無差別調漲的大禮，主計總處認為CPI有影響，但是多數民眾憂心的是三餐又要面臨漲價的機率是很高的。面對高物價，政府無力來控制；面對電價的調漲，政府表示要反映成本，準備對全民兩手一攤，大有漲定的的心態。主計長，你認為民眾對經濟成長的數字能有多少的期待呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，您剛才有提到台電，據我知道，他們初步的規劃並不是無差別的成長，還是大戶可能成長多，一般的小戶可能成長低，還是有差別的。"],["林委員德福：有差別？但是你看，最近包括健保，甚至於掛號費讓各醫院可以自己來調，包括電價要調，最近尤其這些外食族真的是痛苦指數一直在飆高，因為物價一直漲，政府控制不了啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，痛苦指數的確最近兩、三年疫情以後有比較高，可是相對於其他國家，我們算是比較低的……"],["林委員德福：所以跟其他國家來比……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們……"],["林委員德福：但是問題是我們的薪水你沒有辦法調，對不對？因為低薪人生是多數民眾的一生，這種宿命政府難道幫得上忙嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們跟委員報告一下，我們的基本工資大概蔡總統就任以來每年都有調升，基本工資每年都有調升，而且公務人員的薪水這8年來也調了大概10%，相對於以前8年只調3%已經比較高。"],["林委員德福：主計長，其實調基本工資對外勞是最有利的，對本勞，講實在話，他要負擔家庭，你現在所有的物價都一直在往上爬，我剛剛一直在強調，他們的痛苦指數真的一直在飆高，你知道你調基本工資最得利的就是那些外勞，對不對？我不是歧視他們，我是說因為你沒有把這些工資拉到跟物價水準可以比，造成物價一直在調，但是薪資沒有調，造成我本來可以買10個麵包，現在可能只買6個、5個，所以痛苦指數會飆高！主計長，你們身為中央的官員，要體恤這些基層的老百姓，真的，主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，基本工資的話，在南部有些的確也是用基本工資，所以基本工資的調升也很重要……"],["林委員德福：重要我不反對，問題是你調了以後，實際上跟物價沒有辦法比，所以造成很多原來……像最近那些外食族隨便買個便當最少要120，甚至於有150、160，你說過去只有80、70就可以買到便當，你現在80、70真的買不到哩！你知不知道？主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：當然知道。"],["林委員德福：知道不知道？"],["朱主計長澤民：知道。"],["林委員德福：甚至於我自己去買芭樂，前一陣子一斤芭樂69、79，這樣子耶！你知不知道？"],["朱主計長澤民：芭樂是因為去年下半年雨季的原因，下雨以及颱風的原因，芭樂是有……"],["林委員德福：我看了真的嚇了一跳！"],["朱主計長澤民：芭樂、香蕉……"],["林委員德福：香蕉也是啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：以及鳳梨都有高。"],["林委員德福：你知道喔！所以很多外食族想要吃個水果都很困難，講實在話。"],["朱主計長澤民：另外一個，因為芭樂去年基數也比較低。"],["林委員德福：過去像香蕉頂多20塊，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：基數比較低。"],["林委員德福：芭樂也差不多20塊，現在飆到將近70塊，對不對？他們買不起，痛苦指數就一直在飆。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，目前水果的價格比去年高，可是蔬菜現在都已經跌幅很大。"],["林委員德福：蔬菜跌幅很大？所以多吃蔬菜、少吃水果，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有這個意思，這是要平衡的。"],["林委員德福：照你的意思就是蔬菜多吃、水果少吃，對不對？主計長，其實要整體來考量……"],["朱主計長澤民：那是委員講的，我沒有講。"],["林委員德福：主計長，經濟學人智庫EIU的報告指出，紅海危機已經對亞洲出口的貿易造成重大衝擊，內容並下修今年的亞洲經濟成長率，預估至少0.2%。請問主計長，就您的瞭解，經濟學人報告對紅海危機的預估，你認為臺灣是不是能夠置身事外？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，不同的機構有不同的估計，但是有些機構認為今年的成長率會比他們上次預估的增加0.2個百分點，不同的機構有不同的估計。"],["林委員德福：對，預估整個經濟成長至少會影響到0.2%的指數，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：是增加。"],["林委員德福：增加？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，不同的機構。"],["林委員德福：你認為用什麼方法能夠降低損失，進而縮小對臺灣GDP的衝擊？有沒有辦法？"],["朱主計長澤民：紅海危機是說我們的船隻通過，當然一方面應該有保險，對不對？另外一方面，我們也應該分散我們的採購市場，事實上我們……"],["林委員德福：你不要到最後變成有的要空運，價格更高啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們的油沒有經過紅海。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：大宗物資黃小玉也沒有經過紅海。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝，因為時間到了。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位發言請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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欸 前一陣子齁 一斤芭樂 欸 69 79 這樣子勒 那個芭樂啊 是因為去年喔 下半年那個雨季的原因 下雨的一個雨季 颱風的原因到 那個芭樂是有 是有那個 我看了真的嚇了一跳啊 芭樂香蕉跟那個 香蕉也是啊 鳳梨啦都有都有高 你知道齁"},{"start":520.761,"end":524.095,"text":"所以說很多外食族他們要吃個水果都很困難講實在話"},{"start":525.953,"end":550.77,"text":"因為另外一個芭樂去年也比較低阿過去你像香蕉有多20塊對不對芭樂也差不多20塊阿你現在飆到將近70塊對不對那些當然他們買不起痛苦指數就一直在飆阿那個跟委員報告一下目前是水果的價格是比去年高可是蔬菜現在都已經跌幅很大蔬菜蔬菜跌幅很大"},{"start":551.75,"end":565.657,"text":"所以說多吃蔬菜少吃水果是不是沒有這個意思啦我這是要平衡的啦照你的意思就是說蔬菜多吃水果少吃嘛對不對其實齁主計長要爭議來考量那個"},{"start":569.568,"end":584.681,"text":"主計長經濟學人智庫EIU的報告指出紅海危機已經對亞洲出口的貿易造成有重大的衝擊內容並下修今年的亞洲經濟增長率預估至少0.2%"},{"start":587.943,"end":609.582,"text":"請問主計長就您的了解經濟學能報告對鴻海危機的預估你認為台灣是不是能夠置身事外跟那個委員報告一下那個不同的機構有不同的估計但是有些機構他們認為是說今年的成長率會比他們上一次預估的是增加了0.2個百分點不同的機構有不同的估計"},{"start":610.162,"end":622.844,"text":"就是一估至少整個經濟成長至少會影響到0.2%的指數嗎?是不是?是增加是增加增加那你認為"},{"start":625.641,"end":643.227,"text":"這個用什麼方法能夠降低損失進而縮小對臺灣GDP的衝擊有沒有辦法那個紅海危機的話就是說我們的船隻通過當然一方面應該有保險嘛對不對另外一個方面我們也應該分"},{"start":644.787,"end":645.367,"text":"謝謝 下一位歡迎吳秉瑞委員謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}