{"error":false,"id":["149739"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149739,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149739","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T09:32:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T09:43:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035dfcf055448be262b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:32:22 - 09:43:43","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時32分）主席，麻煩請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：早，主計長。今天你的報告裡面談到各方面，我前幾天在網路上看到總體經濟學的學者也在講這個CPI，他的闡述是說一個國家也不能夠CPI不上漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：像日本失落了30年，它的CPI有時候不漲反跌，反而對經濟不健康，他的講法是說一個國家正常的CPI年增率大概在2個百分點左右算是健康，這樣的講法不知道你認不認同？"],["朱主計長澤民：很多國家都認為如果CPI一直很低或者甚至往下的話，有些人認為是有通貨緊縮的現象……"],["吳委員秉叡：中國現在就是通貨緊縮很嚴重啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：像現在中國大陸就是，香港前些時候也是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那2%的CPI你認不認同？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得認同。"],["吳委員秉叡：他說2%算健康的，他認為低於1%就已經不健康了，更不要講minus。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我同意委員的觀點。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然他也認為不能高，高過3%就通貨膨脹了。"],["朱主計長澤民：事實上我們前（111）年是2.95%，去年是2.49%，今年我們沒有考慮電價的話，預計大概是1.85%；若考慮電價的話，可能接近2%，我們認為並沒有外界所謂的通膨現象。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛你順帶講到電價的問題，你剛剛講的我很認真在聽喔！對於這些大戶跟一般的民生用電，可能將來政府在考量的時候所上漲的頻率是不一樣的？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，上漲的幅度不一樣，對於一般民生用戶或是小店戶的話，據我知道，他們的規劃方向是漲幅比較低。對於大戶，尤其是外銷比重很大的話……"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉一個例子，大家都說臺灣的護國神山是台積電，台積電大概占臺灣用電的8個百分點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，他們一年的用電大概是180億度。"],["吳委員秉叡：180億度？甚至到200億度。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，接近。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在一個問題是台積電這麼賺錢，台積電一年幾乎賺1兆臺幣，盈餘啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，全年。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們的電價是工業用電一樣、民生用電一樣，等於是在補貼的狀況，現在的成本如果照台電的說法，1度大概是4塊左右、4塊多一點，但是大額的工業用電3塊3毛錢，那是調漲之後希望能夠接近成本。你光想整個國家，政府無論是補貼或是增資台電都是用公共的預算，結果這個錢拿來補貼這種獲取非常高利潤的公司，台積電這麼賺錢當然很了不起，它的科技發展也非常了不起，我們都非常稱讚，但是它既然這麼賺錢，電價就不應該再由全民買單，這樣的觀念不知道你贊不贊成？"],["朱主計長澤民：的確像委員所講的，事實上台積電很努力在節電，也很努力在購買那些綠能的……"],["吳委員秉叡：它節電、它綠能，我贊成！對公司也有益，但我的意思是說，像這樣的超高壓用戶可能還要再區分，它的公司是很賺錢的、現在走在產業時代尖端的，跟剛剛講到已經跟中國一樣很大量產能輸出導致在做紅海競爭的，這是另外一個紅海競爭喔！也就是競爭的紅海，舉個例子，中鋼如果不改變它的體質，繼續做大量的鋼材，光中國的鋼產量就把它壓死了，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：中鋼一樣也是用電量很高的公司啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，事實上據我瞭解，他們有區分所謂的情況，就是說愈大的調高……"],["吳委員秉叡：愈大的、愈賺錢的，愈不應該得到補貼。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確是這樣。因為給予它補貼，如果我們又補助台電的電費，那就有點變成是補助外國的消費者，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這樣的觀念，我繼續引申，當然就是要協助，政府如果有多餘的錢要給台電補貼的話，我講的是補貼，不是增資，那更要去照顧到民生、小店舖還有用電量比較小的這些消費者，像住家的用電，它漲價的比例應該要相對因為政府的補貼而被壓低。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我剛才答復林德福委員時也有提到，目前規劃的方向對於小的民生用戶，因為電有時候是民生必需品，以及對於小規模的店舖，他們都有做一個規劃。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，以上是電的問題。","兩年前，幾乎也是4月在這邊跟你請教，那時候對於國中小營養午餐補助費用的拉高，一般是拉到10塊，但是偏鄉拉到14塊，這兩年來你剛剛講CPI有二點九幾的、二點六幾的，加在一起又超過5%的CPI，再加上食物類上漲的比例比平均的CPI還要高一些。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確我們最早是6塊……"],["吳委員秉叡：贊不贊成今年對於中小學小朋友的營養午餐補助金額應該要再略為提高？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，補助金額可能要經由教育部跟農委會，他們比較熟悉單價。事實上我們從6塊調到10塊，偏鄉從10塊變14塊，我們在113年度有編列138億，相較於早期是26億，我們也有一個營養午餐的菜單。另外農委會的代理主委有跟我提過，是不是可以考量再做一些……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，我就是說再考量增加一些補助，由於決策者最後不是你，但是希望把這個意見也帶回去院裡面，因為的確我們把年輕一代小朋友的身體照顧好，對我們國家未來有非常大的幫助……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確。"],["吳委員秉叡：不知道你贊不贊成？是不是應該反映？"],["朱主計長澤民：我非常贊成，陳代理部長有跟我談，他有一個構想，讓學生的營養品質能夠更加提高。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！尤其最近臺灣的食安風暴……"],["朱主計長澤民：他有一個構想……"],["吳委員秉叡：有系統性的問題，從中國進來的東西就是很有問題，從以前就一直講，中國那個國家就最不重視食安了，結果一堆人現在要去抱中國的大腿，又搞了這個東西，讓大家惶惶不安，最近的蘇丹紅事件也是，百試不爽，都是同樣的狀況。","再來我再問一個你報告裡面所點的東西，臺灣這二、三年來的超額儲蓄率都很高，今年你有預估超額儲蓄率甚至會到3.8兆。那超額儲蓄的問題就是相對於你的儲蓄那麼多，你的投資明顯不足，那民間的投資，政府一直在呼籲要提振，也提出方案在提振，但是仍有不足的時候，公共建設在適度範圍內的投資增加，是不是也是應該的？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員報告一下，事實上超額儲蓄有國民所得恆等式的話，超額儲蓄是指儲蓄大於投資，事實上S減I就是等於出口減進口，所以我們只要出口順差越多，我們的超額儲蓄就越多。新加坡也是這樣子，我看瑞士它們也都是這樣子。將來我們的附加價值越多，出口順差越多，超額儲蓄就會越多。不過，這邊的超額儲蓄是S減I，他們現在做的統計、學界所講的統計都只是實質面的投資，事實上有些投資要把金融投資也應該算到裡面去，就是他有實質的投資，就是機具廠房設備不夠，可是那些錢他要去運用，就像我們的外匯存底去買美國的一些所謂公債，同樣是有賺取外匯，所以說我們除了實質投資以外，金融投資也應該努力。新加坡有很高的超額儲蓄，可是它的金融理財也很好，瑞士也是這個樣子。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我們法令的保守程度沒有辦法像它那麼open。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那我因為時間很短，現在最後一個問題跟你強調一下，小弟在立法院從開始到現在已經經過20年了，我們政府公共建設支出的預算早年比例是比較高的，到前幾年變得很低，這幾年又慢慢恢復，因為有特別預算嘛！有前瞻基礎建設嘛！我的意思是說在財政，如果你的財政，假設我們每一年的稅收真的都超過預算數那麼多的話，也要有一部分拿來做公共建設的投資，這一部分是提醒你。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，最近幾年我們連所謂的特別預算跟營業預算包括在裡面的話，我們的投資都有大概接近10%的成長率……"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那這樣我們希望把這個……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會繼續努力，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：院會的時候，如果有意見溝通的時候也可以表達，謝謝你，感謝努力。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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如果有意見溝通的時候也可以表達謝謝你喔 感謝 努力"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}