{"error":false,"id":["149740"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149740,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149740","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T09:18:03+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T09:34:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903ba47da5f1a2c0b553ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a610bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:03 - 09:34:08","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請劉秘書長、周部長以及郝主任委員。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長、周部長以及郝主任委員，請三位就發言台。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長、部長、主委，三位其實都是我多年的好友，以前見面都要稱學長、學姐還有老師，不過我們今天在不同的位置上，雖然屬於不同的黨派，我們一起為國家做事情。改革不能期待一蹴可幾，但更糟糕的是原地踏步。秘書長，你認不認同？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我同意。"],["黃委員國昌：你還記不記得你最近看到這句話是什麼時候？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這句話是我寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！你們在2022年的時候去日本考察，回來的報告我全部都拜讀完了，我拜讀完那個出國考察報告以後，看到了這句話，心理感觸非常的深。最近我問了人事總處的人事長有關於消防弟兄安全防護的問題，2018年他在這個會議室承諾我要做的事，他沒做到，他那天很有擔當的道歉了。但事後，蔡總統6年以前的承諾，我那天開完會議後，聽到行政院副院長鄭文燦說沒有跳票的問題，去年已經開始研議了，我聽了心非常地痛，去年為什麼開始研議？不是因為6年前的敬鵬大火，是因為去年又有消防弟兄走了，屏東又走了消防弟兄，又開始研議了，過了6年以後，原地踏步，繼續持續地在研議當中。有很多消防弟兄看到上次質詢完鄭文燦的回應，非常憤怒，發訊息給我說10月12號他們被騙了、被摸頭了，答應他沒有上凱道，結果做完新聞後，消防員權益促進會再度發函給行政院，要求召開跨部會甚至跨院的會議，11月3號通知發出去，到現在已讀不回。我想這個辦法，包括秘書長、包括部長、包括郝主委都知道，這絕對不是保訓會一個部會的責任，我拜讀了，在立法院裡面好幾次，保訓會不管是前任的主委還是現任的郝主委，在討論到這個辦法時你們所展現的立場、態度，甚至有一些無奈，我在書面報告當中全部都看到了。但我要跟大家交換一個心得，我們在做這些事情時，一定要站在最基層消防弟兄的立場去想這件事情，他們看到的是一個又一個的弟兄走掉，秘書長，你知不知道，10年走了幾個消防弟兄？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：43位，平均每一年要走4位，站在他們的立場是大家都在踢皮球，他們看到的結果是經過了這幾年，這個安衛辦法完全沒有修正，我現在具體地請教，安衛辦法到現在，從他們的角度來看，什麼都沒有修哦！我請教一下郝主委，你們最近一次召開修安衛辦法的會議是什麼時候？"],["郝主任委員培芝：事實上我們從去年的10月、12月，一直到今年都有在……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，主委，你講到重點了，去年10月2號時，為什麼呂副主委建德要召開這個會議？您知道嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我當然知道，就是希望積極來修改相關的安衛辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：在去年10月2號前……"],["郝主任委員培芝：應該說更早，我們在108年、109年、110年、111年都有召開相關的會議。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我把序列全部整理出來了，您剛才所講的，2019年當時的主委有提辦法來，他為什麼提？因為那時發生桃園敬鵬的悲劇，提了辦法後停下來，不斷地研議，我看到最後一次是2021年3月25號人總把他們版本的安衛辦法提供給保訓會，因為保訓會2019年的辦法跟後來你們所提出來的辦法，這兩份辦法我拜讀了，你們整個內容的充實是在2021年人總提供後，你們在那個條文的基礎上繼續去改；但我要給大家看的是什麼？從2021年的3月到2023年的10月，整整2年半的時間，我剛剛請教郝主委，10月2號為什麼發那個會議通知，我當然知道，那個會議的主題是安衛辦法，10月的會議是9月的大火燒出來的，我這樣說應該公平吧？"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，在大環境來說，對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有9月的那場大火，或許根本不會有10月的這場會議。"],["郝主任委員培芝：應該是說我們過去都積極要研擬這個安衛辦法的……"],["黃委員國昌：對，然後積極研擬到今天，結果改了沒有？"],["郝主任委員培芝：已經提到考試院，也送到立法院來，但是因為還有一些意見沒辦法整合，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：這就是我剛剛要跟大家交換意見的地方。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們永遠要站在最基層的立場去想，每一個部會都可以講我們要研議、我們要徵詢意見，但他們看到的是什麼？6年過去了，這個辦法原地踏步。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，但是原地踏步是因為後來覺得對於消防人員的職安部分，最終極、最專業的保障如果能夠納入消防法裡面來做更完整的規劃，其實是對消防人員兄弟的權益更高的保障，更專業的一個……"],["黃委員國昌：您最近跟消促會的朋友坐下來談是什麼時候？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們在10月、11月、12月到今年的1月都有。"],["黃委員國昌：跟消促會的朋友？"],["郝主任委員培芝：10月跟12月我們有邀請消促會的朋友還有警察……"],["黃委員國昌：12月的那個會我也跟您報告一下，本來消防署是發函22號開會，結果聽到他們21號要去賴清德競選總部抗議後，馬上發會議通知改成20號，所有的歷程……"],["郝主任委員培芝：這是警政署……"],["黃委員國昌：所有的歷程我全部都掌握了。"],["郝主任委員培芝：最後是因為消防法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，您最近一次跟他們開會，他們希望修改的是什麼？"],["郝主任委員培芝：其實他們的態度有一些不一樣，最早是希望修安衛辦法，後來是希望回歸職安法，目前是希望修保障法，有些變化。"],["黃委員國昌：您先聽我講，他們的態度為什麼會變？一開始他們的確是希望要修安衛辦法，你如果是消防員，等了6年，原地踏步，你還願意繼續等下去嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為他們要求安衛辦法裡面要放入罰則，但安衛辦法是法規命令的層級，它必須要修保障法。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我都瞭解啦！"],["郝主任委員培芝：所以應該說現在消促會的態度……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我都瞭解啦！現在我的問題是，我們是經過了6年後、研議了6年後才知道原來安衛辦法沒辦法解決問題嘛﹗","我現在直接請教你，我跟這些消防弟兄，我不是出了事才去問他們的意見，從2018年開始我參加過他們非常多的活動，經常跟他們保持聯繫，因為我覺得我很敬佩這些年輕人，為了我們大家，在第一線的火場涉身犯難，結果走了這麼多弟兄，而所有相關部會大家還在踢皮球、原地踏步，他們最希望放到職安法，理由很簡單，規範最完整。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但對於規範到職安法的這個看法，可能勞動部有不一樣的看法，所以他們的第二順位是公務人員保障法要修法，到最後都不行了，才會打算放到消防法，我把順位跟主委您說明一下。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是，我瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我要問的事情是，在這三個機關之間，現在大家都在踢皮球……"],["郝主任委員培芝：我想不是踢皮球，是在建構一個最符合消防人員權益的法制設計。"],["黃委員國昌：我只問一件事情，主委，您站在您的立場，你可能覺得不是踢皮球，我再給您一個建議，去跟這些消防弟兄談一談，從他們的觀點，他們會不會覺得是踢皮球。我再次地強調，今天這件事情，我沒有說一定是保訓會的錯，我也沒有說一定是勞動部的錯，我也沒有說一定是消防署的錯，但是我希望今天站在這邊，他們發出了開會通知，希望行政院召集跨部會的會議，因為他們已經不知道怎麼辦了，他們去找人總、他們去找消防署、他們去找勞動部，大家給的答案，從他們的角度來講就是踢皮球。"],["郝主任委員培芝：從去年10月、12月我們都有召開跨院的協商會議，也由行政院來主導，因為這確實要涉及到……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，他們參加過跨院的協商會議只有哪一場？只有10月12號那一場嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：警政署後來的相關會議、還有本會的相關會議，他們都有參與，在……"],["黃委員國昌：他們11月3號的時候發了通知，希望行政院召開跨院的會議來解決他們的問題，我現在跟主委講的是，已讀不回！現在針對那些修法的順序，時間到了，我只問最後一個最關鍵的問題。"],["郝主任委員培芝：現在消防署已經預計在3月下旬就會推出消防法的修法草案，內部已經有個……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我最後就問一個問題，如果他們希望放到現在有關於勞動部的職安相關保護辦法，這個第一順位的選擇是不可得的話，那第二個部分，他們如果希望透過強化公務人員保障法裡面對於他們的保障，考試院的立場是什麼？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們當然也可以接受。"],["黃委員國昌：可以接受嘛！好，因為我希望把順位談清楚。"],["郝主任委員培芝：但是我們還是認為在目前專業的保護上、職安保護上，放在消防法依然會是我們認為最專業的一個職安保障體系。"],["黃委員國昌：對。我最後只講兩個問題，為什麼我提到公務人員保障法？因為你去看安衛辦法，那個安衛辦法裡面要保護的不是只有警消喔。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，因為它是全部的公務人員。"],["黃委員國昌：對，是全體的公務人員，現在的安衛辦法以今天的角度來講，我們先把警消放在外面，從提供給全體公務人員必要的安全防護保障，不管是公務人員保障法的授權規定夠不夠明確，還是現在安衛辦法裡面的規範夠不夠周全，主委，你認為現在的安衛辦法即使把警消排除在外面有沒有修正的必要？"],["郝主任委員培芝：當然有修正必要。"],["黃委員國昌：當然有修正的必要！即使把警消排除在外面也有修正的必要，然而……"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們要納入監督、檢查跟課責機制，並且有高風險職務的專家。"],["黃委員國昌：是！然而到現在都還沒有修嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們已經有草案，但是因為現在還正在協調消防人員的部分要怎麼處理。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個部分，你們草案的關鍵是不是公務人員保障法？"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：要有更明確的授權規定嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：如果要有罰則的話，如果要納入罰則或課責機制的話……"],["黃委員國昌：但考試院所提出來的立法計畫，有配合安衛法修正的公務人員保障法嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為我們還在等待消防法立法的程序……"],["黃委員國昌：消防法你又提到警消的部分，剛剛我已經跟你講，問題很具體喔……"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為如果消防人員沒有辦法處理的話，我們後續的安衛辦法沒辦法做切割跟妥適性的安排。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以我最後只問一個問題，這件事情考試院什麼時候可以做決定？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們就等消防法能夠順利立法完成之後，我們就會啟動後續的修法程序，主要是先針對安衛辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦，有關於警消的部分，如果你們現在的立法計畫是要給消防法、消防署去做的話，那你剛剛也說了回來本來的安衛辦法，它本來就有什麼？本來就有修正的必要。現在的公務人員保障法你如果要讓安衛辦法修得更好，你可能聯動地公務人員保障法要一起修正。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我的看法沒有錯嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：如果是這個樣子的話，這一任的考試委員到今年8月31號就卸任了嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我期待我們一起努力，在這個會期、在他們離開以前把應該給公務人員的，不管是好的保障法、還是好的安衛辦法，我們一起努力把它修正完，好不好？"],["郝主任委員培芝：可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃總召，謝謝3位，秘書長、部長和主委。我想打火弟兄姐妹為公共安全付出，我們都肯定，也希望我們各院共同努力，不管是消防法、保障法還是安衛辦法，我們儘速來促成，給予包括公務人員在內的消防弟兄姊妹更多的保障，謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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沒錯 都有在參與對對對 好主委你講到重點了去年10月去年10月2號的時候為什麼李副主委建德要召開這個會議您知道嗎我當然知道就是希望能夠積極來修改相關的安慰辦法在去年10月2號之前"},{"start":328.285,"end":331.408,"text":"我把序列全部整理出來了您剛所講的2019年的時候那個時候的主委有提辦法來他為什麼提因為那時候發生了桃園進棚的悲劇提了辦法以後"},{"start":353.598,"end":381.226,"text":"提下來不斷的研議我看到最後一次是2021年3月25號的時候人總把他們版本的安慰辦法提供了給保訓會因為保訓會2019年的辦法跟後來你們所提出來的辦法兩份辦法我拜讀了你們整個內容的充實是在2021年人總提供了以後你們在那個條文的基礎上繼續去改"},{"start":382.284,"end":408.935,"text":"但是我要給大家看的是什麼從2021年的3月到2023年的10月整整兩年半的時間我剛剛請教好主委說10月2號為什麼發那個會議通知我當然知道那個會議的主題是安慰辦法10月的會議是9月的大火燒出來的我這樣說應該公平吧"},{"start":411.615,"end":436.896,"text":"對 在這個大的環境來說如果沒有9月的那一場大火或許根本不會有10月的這場會議應該委員是說我們在過去都已經在積極要研擬這個安慰辦法的對 然後結果積極的研擬到今天改了沒有提到考試院也送到這個立法院來但是因為還有一些意見沒辦法整合所以這個就是我剛剛跟大家交換的"},{"start":439.089,"end":456.6,"text":"議見的地方我們永遠要站在最基層的立場去想每一個部會都可以講我們要演繹我們要徵詢意見但他們看到的是什麼六年過去了這個辦法原地踏步"},{"start":457.639,"end":458.86,"text":"您最近跟消除會的朋友坐下來談是什麼時候?"},{"start":478.433,"end":495.904,"text":"我們在10月、11月、12月跟到今年的1月我們都有跟消促會的朋友10月跟12月我們有邀請消促會的朋友還有警察公務員12月的那個會我也可以您報告一下本來消防署是發函是發函22號開會結果聽到他們21號要去賴清德競選總部抗議了以後馬上發會議通知改成20號"},{"start":506.169,"end":531.461,"text":"所有的歷程所有的歷程我全部所有的歷程我全部都掌握了好 您最近一次沒有沒有沒有 您最近一次跟他們開會他們希望修改的是什麼其實他們的態度有一些不一樣最早是希望安慰辦法後來希望回歸治安法他們的態度希望修保障法您先聽我講他們的態度為什麼會變"},{"start":535.325,"end":551.989,"text":"他們一開始的確希望要修安慰辦法你如果是消防員等了6年原地踏步你還願意繼續等下去嗎因為安慰辦法裡面因為他們要求要放入罰則那因為有罰則安慰辦法是法規命令的層級他必須要修保障法"},{"start":553.602,"end":575.442,"text":"這個我都了解啦這個我都了解啊現在我的問題是我們是經過了6年以後是經過了6年以後我們研議了6年以後才知道原來安慰辦法沒有辦法解決問題嗎我現在直接的請教你喔因為我跟這些消防弟兄我不是出了事啊才去問他們的意見"},{"start":577.51,"end":603.809,"text":"從2018年開始我參加過他們非常多的活動經常在跟他們保持聯繫因為我覺得這些年輕人我很敬佩他們為了我們大家在第一線的火場射聲犯難結果走了這麼多弟兄我們所有相關的部會大家還在踢皮球原地踏步他們最希望的是放到執案法"},{"start":605.17,"end":620.158,"text":"理由很簡單規範最完整但對於規範到職安法的這個看法可能從勞動部的觀點他們有不一樣的看法他們第二順位"},{"start":622.304,"end":638.699,"text":"是公務人員保障法要修法到最後不行的不行才會打算放到消防法我把順位跟主委妳說明一下現在我要問的事情就是他們現在在這三個機關之間"},{"start":640.541,"end":668.182,"text":"大家都在踢皮球大家都在踢皮球為什麼不是踢皮球我只問我只問一件事情主委您站在您的立場你可能覺得不是踢皮球我再給您一個建議去跟這些消防弟兄談一談從他們的觀點他們會不會覺得是踢皮球我再次的強調今天這件事情我沒有說一定是保訓會的錯"},{"start":669.483,"end":695.681,"text":"我也沒有說一定是勞動部的錯我也沒有說一定是消防署的錯但是我希望今天站在這邊讓這一些發出了開會通知希望行政院召集跨部會的會議因為他們已經不知道怎麼辦了他們去找人種他們去找消防署他們去找勞動部大家給的答案"},{"start":698.682,"end":720.057,"text":"從他們的角度來講就是踢皮球從去年10月、12月我們都有召開跨院的協商會議也由行政院來主導因為這確實要涉及到他們參加過跨院的協商會議只有哪一場只有10月12號那一場嘛那另外警政署後來的相關會還有本會的相關會他們都有參與"},{"start":721.588,"end":741.274,"text":"他們11月3號的時候發了通知希望行政院召開跨院的會議來解決他們的問題我現在跟主委講的是以讀不回以讀不回現在針對那些修法的順序時間到了我只問最後一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":742.754,"end":748.9,"text":"現在消防組已經預計在3月下旬就會推出消防法的修法草案我最後就問一個問題是如果他們希望放到現在"},{"start":760.239,"end":779.554,"text":"有關於勞動部他們的職安相關的保護辦法這個第一數位的選擇是不可得的話是不可得的話那第二個部分他們如果希望透過來強化公務人員保障法理念對於他們的保障考試院的立場是什麼"},{"start":780.148,"end":794.758,"text":"我們當然也可以接受可以接受嘛因為我希望把順位談清楚但是我們還是認為在目前專業的保護上職安保上放在消防法依然是會我們認為是比較最專業的一個我最後只講兩個問題啊為什麼我提到公務人員保障法"},{"start":799.801,"end":819.326,"text":"因為你去看安慰辦法那個安慰辦法裡面要保護的不是只有警消喔對 因為他是全部的公務人員對 是全體的公務人員全體的公務人員現在的安慰辦法以今天的角度來講我們先把警消放在外面先把警消放在外面從提供給全體公務人員"},{"start":820.486,"end":820.906,"text":"當然有修正必要"},{"start":840.018,"end":866.969,"text":"當然有修正的必要即使把警校排除在外面也有修正的必要然而 然而監督檢查跟克責機制並且有高風險職務的專家是然而到現在都還沒有修嗎我們已經有草案但是因為現在還在協調在第二個部分你們的草案的關鍵是不是公務人員保障法對要有更明確的授權規定嗎如果要有罰則的話"},{"start":869.197,"end":879.287,"text":"但我現在從今天考試院所提出來的立法計畫有配合安慰法修正的公務人員保障法嗎?"},{"start":880.348,"end":898.336,"text":"因為我們還在等待消防法的一個立法的一個程序消防法你又提到警消的部分剛我已經跟你講問題很具體喔我們後續的安會辦法做切割跟視託視訊的好那所以我最後只問一個問題這件事情考試院什麼時候可以做決定"},{"start":899.431,"end":925.188,"text":"我們就等消防法能夠順利立法完成之後我們就會啟動後續的修法的程序我這樣說好了啦主要是先針對安慰辦法就有關於警消的部分你們現在如果的立法計畫是要給消防法、消防署去做的話那你剛也說了回來本來的安慰辦法他本來就有什麼本來就有修正的本來就有修正的必要嘛現在的"},{"start":925.788,"end":949.12,"text":"公務人員保障法你如果要讓安慰辦法修得更好你可能連動的公務人員保障法要一起修正我的看法沒有錯嘛那如果是這個樣子的話這一任的考試委員到今年8月31號就卸任了嘛到今年8月31號卸任了嘛我期待啦我期待我們一起努力在這個會期在他們離開以前"},{"start":952.441,"end":952.581,"text":"謝謝黃總召也謝謝三位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}