{"error":false,"id":["149748"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149748,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149748","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T09:52:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T10:04:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cc159288ba1c302b33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a60c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:52:12 - 10:04:12","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時52分）謝謝主席，請王美花王部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早，我們繼續來談苦民所苦、民生第一。我們今天的重點還是在1,000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲，討論之前我們就來談一個比較輕鬆的，現在民眾最怕的就是水電雙漲對不對？怕兩個颱風共伴效應，這叫藤原效應嘛！所以你今天能不能很明確地跟全國民眾講，今年年底之前水價不會漲？"],["王部長美花：水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎，我們也會希望台水公司能夠有好的支撐，這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論台水的相關計畫。"],["張委員啓楷：上次是台水的李董說有可能要漲價，李董請你站一下沒關係，請站一下啦！不過只要今天部長對著我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了，儘量不要在今年年底漲水價好不好？這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應，這叫藤原效應嘛！對不對？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：整個物價會帶起來，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：目前還沒有規劃啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能對著民眾說，讓他們不要擔心，儘量在今年年底不要漲水價可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員建議。"],["張委員啓楷：可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會把委員的建議做參考。"],["張委員啓楷：你可以努力嗎？這方面可以努力，這是避免物價整個帶上來嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：物價上漲就跟變了心的女朋友就回不來了，你水跟電都漲，到時候你看，每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣，好不好？"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：我們接下來苦民所苦，我們今天繼續談，這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了，我們看一下這個天平，左邊非常明顯高獲利，可是也是高耗電的高科技，用了臺灣絕大部分的電，對不對？他們雖然是獲利非常地多，可是有些大的公司、半導體公司，甚至是我們人民用錢去補貼的，譬如說台積電，它營收那麼好，可是到目前為止，一年人民大概用100億左右的錢來補貼它的電價，而台電賣給台積電的電，台積電一年用了我們200億度的電，它拿錢跟台電買的時候，還差了五角，對不對？等於是每賣一度電給台積電，台電的錢也就是我們人民的納稅錢，它補了五角，對不對？至少這次把這個五角補回來，我們不是只有針對台積電，我講的是整個高獲利的高科技，特別是半導體，所以這次的調電是怎麼樣，有沒有可能調高一點點？"],["王部長美花：委員這個建議我們確實也都會在工作小組裡面去做參考。"],["張委員啓楷：現在媒體報的是，半導體一年用了50億度以上的電，所以要調25%到30%，是不是？"],["王部長美花：他們正在討論，都還沒有定案。"],["張委員啓楷：有這個方向，是吧？至少會調多少？"],["王部長美花：細節因為我沒有參與，所以我不瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：我為什麼一開始講這個，當然我們非常敬佩高科技對我們臺灣經濟發展的貢獻，你看張忠謀創辦人他是非常有企業責任、社會責任的，他都提到願意被徵富人稅，對不對？我相信我們在肯定高科技半導體對我們臺灣經濟貢獻的時候，這次調電的時候，他們可能是像你們規劃的，應該多負擔一點，在兩成五到三成之間，而他們在多負擔一點的同時，我們看看右邊可憐的一般老百姓及1,000度以下的小康之家、小商店，他們現在碰到的是高通膨、實質薪資負成長。","這個是主計總處的統計，2020年2.95，這算很高了；2023年2.49；今年1月，CPI稍微降下一點點，最讓人擔心的2月份則是衝破了3，CPI變成3.08，國發會也直接評估了，電價如果漲10%的話，CPI直接或間接的影響有0.2到0.3%，所以真的要非常非常謹慎面對這對物價的衝擊，人民已經很苦了，這時候電價一漲，他們的生活更苦。","今天還有更新的新聞，我給部長看一下，今天這是各報還有各個電視台的頭條新聞，通膨怪獸又突襲美國。今天最新的統計，美國2月的CPI年增了3.2%，核心的CPI年增了3.8%，這都顯示不是只有美國，整個臺灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊，所以拜託部長，再拜託一次，1,000度以下的民生用電，在開會的時候，儘量爭取不要漲，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員的建議，我們各方的意見都會蒐集。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK。儘量往這個方向走，好不好？","另外，我在爭取、幫全民講話的時候，至少讓物價不要上漲的同時還有一個方法，除了不漲電價之外，就是儘量去補助小商家跟小商店，小商家、小商店如果不苦，沒有調高它的價格，人民就不會受苦嘛！所以最近行政院穩定物價小組馬上要開會了，是不是？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你最近要去開會，對不對？你能不能建議，第一個，小商家、小商店的桶裝瓦斯、天然氣在今年年底之前，只能降不要漲，這是你管的，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是，這個部分跟委員報告，我們已經很久沒有漲，我們現在賣給它是八塊多，可是委員知道成本多少嗎？最高是16塊，現在雖然降一點，大概15塊、14塊，可是事實上我們桶裝瓦斯是用半價在賣給商家。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這要稱讚一下部長，這是好的措施。"],["王部長美花：這部分中油已經……"],["張委員啓楷：而且我幫你查過了，天然氣價格是在往下掉的。"],["王部長美花：雖然掉了，但還是有十幾塊。"],["張委員啓楷：對！它是往下掉的，所以我的要求是合理的，我是說至少在今年年底前你只能降不要再漲，好不好？"],["王部長美花：我們對小商家都會優予考慮。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說能否很具體地做出這樣的承諾？老實說，它已經在漲了，對不對？如果降的話，你就跟著降，老實講，我們都會去小商店、小店家吃麵、吃飯，對他們影響很大的就是他們的瓦斯。"],["王部長美花：是，這些桶裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你能不能做一個很清楚的保證，就是在今年年底之前，只會降不會漲？"],["王部長美花：我們一定會優予考慮，委員可以看到我們過去這兩、三年都沒有漲，這個都已經乖離成本很多了。"],["張委員啓楷：好。接下來是黃小玉的調幅。"],["王部長美花：這個是涉及到財政部的工作。"],["張委員啓楷：行政院要開會了，你可以幫忙反映嗎？"],["王部長美花：到時各部會都會在。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好。還有一個很重要的，我們看下一張，這應該對台電、經濟部是一個好的消息，公平會跟9家民營電廠打官司的這個事情，最新的進度是公平會贏了！公平會贏了！我禮拜一質詢公平會主委的時候，他們說現在的重點就是到底要罰它多少錢，公平會本來罰它63.2億，現在可能改罰60.7億。這有二個重點，第一個是罰多少錢；第二個，更重要的，它認定9家民營電廠是聯合行為，確定已經是事實了，9家民營電廠已經是敗訴了，最高行政法院判決書裡還有一句話非常重要，台電可以跟任何一家，就是向其買電的9家民營電廠或者是能源公司，你可以跟它議價，這就是本席一直在強調的，台電在虧損的同時，人民要付錢、要漲電費之前，所有你跟它買電的9家民營電廠，還有太陽能的部分，去篩檢一下它合約合不合理，有沒有降價空間，好不好？"],["王部長美花：這個部分我簡單跟委員報告，這是兩件事，它等於是97年到102年之間，都沒有來跟台電談，公平會是針對這一段時間遲延來談的部分，有沒有所謂的聯合壟斷，而公平會判定是有，法院也支持了，目前他們這個案子在上訴當中，他們會聲請再審，而這個是針對聯合壟斷。至於電價的部分，102年台電就已跟他們議價完成了，目前是針對102年之前，97年到102年之間遲延的部分，台電有去打官司，有去要求這個部分，一、二審都輸掉了，目前是法院有發回、再審理當中。總之，我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們要更努力，爭取把這個官司打贏。"],["王部長美花：102年之後已經有調降了。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在要提醒你，為什麼當初9間民營電廠會被罰，他們跟台電說，我的天然氣往上走了，所以你要幫我調；而台電這邊提的是什麼？你利息從8%降到2%，結果台電是老實人啊！台電被9家民營電廠欺負了！它幫他們調了天然氣的成本，就跟你這次一樣，天然氣的部分就答應他們調了，可是利息沒有往下降，所以最高行政法院講了一句話，台電有權利跟它繼續議約，不是只有對9家民營電廠，本席現在力爭的是什麼？包括太陽能、綠能都出現了，你看雲豹的19間，還有黃偉哲那個案子……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，雲豹今年開始，它97%全部都直接賣給民間。"],["張委員啓楷：可是你們跟它買是用合約，為什麼會產生那麼多弊案……"],["王部長美花：這個不是，之所以這麼多家，其實國際上都一樣，不同的太陽光電案場，它都是一個VPI的概念，就是會有一個子公司，但這不是為了逃避，全世界我們去看的都是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，等一下我會把相關文書送給你，最高行政法院的判決有句話非常重要，台電可以跟任何向其買電的公司，不管是不是那9家民營電廠，它跟任何買電的能源公司，是可以重新議價、是可以去討論的。"],["王部長美花：委員關心的這個事情，台電也有在討論這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你在漲電價之前，人們要掏錢之前，既然台電是虧損的，你內部要做改革，要去檢視每份合約，看看哪個地方能夠把錢省下來，好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是的，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃代）：謝謝委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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委員好我們繼續要來談苦民所苦民生第一我們現在重點還是在1000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲那討論之前我們就要談一個比較輕鬆的了現在民眾通常就是水電雙漲對不對今天兩個紅胎共伴效應這叫藤原效應嘛所以你今天能不能很明確的跟全國民眾講今年年底之前水價不會漲"},{"start":60.213,"end":87.262,"text":"水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎那我們也會希望這個台水公司能夠有好的一個支撐那這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論相關的這個台水的相關計畫應該是台水李董說有可能要去嘛李董你先站一下沒關係請站一下不過只要今天部長對我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了"},{"start":88.696,"end":99.548,"text":"盡量不要在今年年底 漲水價好不好 這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應 謝謝委員提醒目前還沒有規劃啦 是 你能不能對著民眾說讓他們不要擔心盡量在今年年底 盡量在今年年底不要去水價可以嗎"},{"start":109.76,"end":131.417,"text":"謝謝委員建議我們會把委員的建議做參考你可以努力嗎?這方面可以努力這是避免物價整個帶上來嘛物價上漲就跟那個變了心的女朋友就回不來喔你水跟電都漲這個到時候你看每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣好不好好 謝謝委員好啦那我們接下來來談上夜"},{"start":134.738,"end":158.778,"text":"苦民守苦,我們今天繼續談這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了我們看一下這個天平左邊非常明顯高獲利可是也是高耗電的高科技用了台灣絕大部分的電對不對他們雖然是獲利非常的多可是呢有些"},{"start":160.25,"end":161.871,"text":"臺電每賣給臺積電的電臺積電一年用了我們200億的200億度電的電錢跟臺電買的時候"},{"start":188.86,"end":214.149,"text":"還差了五角,對不對?是不是差五角?等於是每賣一度電給台積電我們台電,也就是我們人民大稅錢,補五角嘛,對不對?那至少是這一次把這個五角把它補回來我不是只有針對台積電,我講的是整個高獲利的高科技,特別是半導體這次的調補是怎麼樣?有沒有可能高一點點?是,這個委員這個建議我們也確實都會在工作小組裡面去參考"},{"start":215.169,"end":223.132,"text":"現在媒體報的是說這次的這個半導體超過51億一年用50億以上的51億一度電的是要調25%到30是不是?"},{"start":227.754,"end":242.643,"text":"他們正在討論都還沒有定案有這個方向是嗎?細節因為我沒有參與所以我不瞭解好那這個天秤的同時我為什麼一開始講這一邊當然我們非常敬佩高科技對我們台灣經濟的發展的這個貢獻你看張忠謀創辦人"},{"start":247.042,"end":274.601,"text":"他是非常有企業責任、社會責任他都提到說他願意徵這個負人稅嘛 對不對我相信在我們的墾丁高科技半導體對我們台灣經濟貢獻的時候這是調電的時候他們可能是向你們規劃的應該多負擔一點那在多負擔一點的同時是不是在兩層五到三層的同時我們看看右邊可憐的是一般的老百姓一千度以下的是小康之家是小商店"},{"start":276.479,"end":295.186,"text":"高通膨實質的薪資負成長通膨這個是主計數的統計2020年2.95這算很高了2023年2.49今年一月CPI稍微降下一點點最讓人家擔心的二月份衝破3CPI衝破3 3.08"},{"start":301.405,"end":327.585,"text":"國發會直接評估了說電價如果漲10%的話CPI直接會有建制影響性0.2到0.3%所以真的要非常非常的謹慎對物價的衝擊不要造成人民已經很苦了這時候電價一漲他們的生活更苦那今天還有更新的新聞我給部長看一下來今天是各報還有各個電視台頭條的新聞通膨怪獸又突襲美國"},{"start":328.772,"end":358.104,"text":"今天統心的統計美國的二月的CPI連增多少?3.2%核心的CPI連增了3.8%這個都顯示不是只有美國整個臺灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊所以拜託補定拜託補定 再拜託一次是千、一千度以下的民生用電在開會的時候盡量爭取不要漲好不好謝謝委員的建議我們各方的意見都會收集是好"},{"start":359.398,"end":385.268,"text":"OK,盡量往這方向走好不好那另外我在爭取幫全民講話的時候我們再看下一張至少讓物價不要上漲的同時有一個方法除了補償電價之外就是盡量去補助小商家跟小商店對不對是小商家小商店他如果不苦他沒有沒有調高他價格人民就不會受苦嘛所以最近馬上要開行政院的物價"},{"start":386.684,"end":398.501,"text":"平穩小組是不是?是。最近要開嘛對不對?對對。你能不能建議第一個小商家的小商店的統裝瓦斯跟天然氣在今年年底之前只能降不要漲?"},{"start":402.006,"end":418.754,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告我們已經很久沒有站我們現在賣給他是8塊多可是成本委員知道多少嗎?最高是16塊那現在雖然降一點喔大概15塊、14塊可是事實上我們基本上是半價桶裝瓦斯在賣給用桶賣給賣給商家這個部分已經中油已經吸收是天然氣的價格是在往下掉的"},{"start":430.339,"end":451.329,"text":"但是掉還是有十幾塊所以我的要求是合理的我說至少在今年年底你只能降不要再漲好不好我們對小商家都會優於考慮不是我說很具體的能不能做這樣的承諾因為老實講他已經在降了對不對那所以如果降的話你就跟著降"},{"start":452.578,"end":476.677,"text":"因為老講對小商店跟小店家吃麵吃飯他們影響很大就是他們的瓦斯嗎?這些統裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧有特別照顧齁?對所以能不能做一個很清楚的保證就是在今年年底之前只會降不會漲我們一定會優於考慮委員看到我們過去這兩三年都沒有漲這個已經都乖離成本很多了"},{"start":477.077,"end":479.158,"text":"公平會跟九家民營電廠打官司這個事情他最新的進度是公平會贏了"},{"start":506.206,"end":527.078,"text":"公平會贏了然後公平會的主委我禮拜一的時候質詢的時候他們說現在重點就是下一張現在到底要到底要罰他多少錢公平會本來罰他的是63.2億現在要改罰可能60.7億因為有兩個重點喔第一是發多少錢第二個更重要的他認定說九家民營電廠的聯合行為"},{"start":529.211,"end":555.97,"text":"確定已經是事實了,就是說九家民營電廠已經是已經是敗訴了,已經敗訴了。最高行政法院裡面還有一句話非常重要,判決書裡面說的,台電可以去跟任何一家你跟他買電的九家民營電廠或者是能源公司,你可以去跟他議價。這就本席一直在強調的,你要,台電在虧損的同時,人民要付錢要漲電費之前,所有的你跟他買電的九家民營電廠,太陽能,"},{"start":556.983,"end":581.55,"text":"去篩檢一下他合約合不合理有沒有降降空間好不好這個部分我簡單跟委員報告他是兩件事他等於是97年到102年這個之間都沒有來跟台電來談那公平會是針對這一段時間實驗來談有沒有聯合壟斷的問題那公平會判定是有那法院也支持了那目前他們這個案子在上訴當中那這個是他們在再審"},{"start":584.011,"end":585.793,"text":"對102年台電就跟他們已經議價完成了那目前是針對102年之前到97年到102年之間的這個齒眼的部分那台電有去打官司要求這個部分那一二省都輸掉了"},{"start":604.71,"end":616.103,"text":"那目前是法院有發回在審理當中那這個我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情所以法定人員要更努力去爭取把這個官司打贏一百零二月之後已經有調降了我現在在提醒你就是說當初為什麼酒店名店長會被罰"},{"start":621.63,"end":651.033,"text":"他們跟台電講說我的那個天然氣往上走啦所以你要幫我調嘛對不對那台電這邊提的是什麼你利息從8%降到2%阿結果台電勾一郎阿台電被九佳民營電廠欺負啦他幫他調了天然氣的這個成本就跟你這次一樣喔天然氣他答應他啦可是往下的利息沒有降沒有降所以最高行政法院講的一句話台電有權利去跟他繼續議約不是只有對九佳民營電廠啓楷現在本席現在在力爭的是什麼"},{"start":651.753,"end":658.761,"text":"包括太陽能力都出現了, 你看雲豹19公斤, 還有黃偉哲那個案子我跟委員報告, 雲豹到今年開始, 他97%全部都直接賣給民間他都是直接賣給民間"},{"start":673.317,"end":677.622,"text":"沒有沒有 這個不是 那麼多家 其實國際上都一樣 不同的太陽光電案場 它都是一個BPI的概念 它就是會有一個子公司 但是它不是為了逃避 它全世界我們去看的都是一樣部長 等一下我會把文書送給你 最高行政法院裡面有一句話非常重要"},{"start":694.279,"end":694.479,"text":"謝謝委員資訊 謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}