{"error":false,"id":["149756"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149756,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149756","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T10:09:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T10:21:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903248fb6a356d53936b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a69b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:09:57 - 10:21:11","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時10分）謝謝主席。有請審計長跟主計長。"],["主席：請陳審計長、朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：兩位長官早安。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員早。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：我想我先請問審計長有關P2P業者納管的問題，審計部在3月5號發布了一個新聞稿，要求金管會要強化P2P的管理，你要求金管會加強對於網路上借貸平台的監理。審計長，你認為應該要怎麼樣來管理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為世界經濟論壇講，假訊息、詐騙是我們未來2年風險的首位，所以打擊詐欺這方面變成我們很重要的一個方向，因為詐騙，金融就很重要，所以我們去查的時候……"],["賴委員惠員：所以審計長你也看到了這個金融的危機，如果我們這個錢收不回來的話，其實會造成很大的一個社會問題。","你再看下一張圖，租賃業跟P2P是非常類似的，其實它只是在於資金來源的不同，P2P資金的來源來自於民眾，租賃業來自於銀行，它從銀行的行庫裡頭借款。目前我們所知道是，租賃業從公股行庫裡就借了1,268億。這樣的話，利息上的差別，聯徵也沒有，用戶的資安調查也沒有，可是相對的，P2P有金管會管，那租賃業呢？你認為應該由誰來管？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員非常的深入，金融上有一套能夠整體都兼顧到，非常好，所以委員提出這個問題，我們會進行瞭解。"],["賴委員惠員：由誰來管呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分原則上……"],["賴委員惠員：你既然已經讚美我說我講得非常好了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會提出這個意見……"],["賴委員惠員：可是我不知道租賃業應該要由誰來管。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：讓行政院去衡量這個到底是金管會或怎麼樣……"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有曾經提出來呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個我們沒辦法代行政機關回答說誰來管。"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，你有沒有曾經提出來過呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個就是我剛剛佩服委員之處，你能夠再深入到這塊，這個我們沒有提出來過。"],["賴委員惠員：你現在講的是P2P是由金管會來管，那租賃業你有沒有提出這樣的一個建議，是由哪一個監理機關來管呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分本來是民法上的一個問題，但是我們可能會把這個意見，或者委員也把這個意見……"],["賴委員惠員：因為你一定會告訴我這是民間之間的借貸關係，是民法……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["賴委員惠員：它雖然欠缺了徵信，以及帳戶資料保管不透明的問題，你已經知道這些問題在哪裡了，那誰來管，是不是應該做一個積極的建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原則上我們尊重行政部門，但是我想如果是錢的事情，因為我們有成立金管會，儘量由金管會統籌會比較整體。"],["賴委員惠員：非常好，審計長，你也看到了，你不能放任監管的套利，所以你認為應該由金管會來……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我個人啦！但是這個我還是要尊重行政部門的決定。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。","主計長，我是白河的外孫，跟你一樣，我想跟你探討，2023年我們的CPI年增率接近15年來的次高，主計處的統計裡也非常清楚看到，2023全年度的CPI年增率是2.5%，今年2月份的CPI你預估會來到3.08%，針對整年CPI的年增率你預測會降低到1.64%。主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們最新的是1.85%，而且沒有包括電費的事情。"],["賴委員惠員：1.85%，那你認為降到1.85%是好還是不好?"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得並沒有很悲觀，也沒有很樂觀，因為我們還有電價，如果1.85%的話，加上電價就可能真的會接近2%，我們認為最近2月份比較高是因為去年的過年是在1月，所以比較的基礎是去年的基礎比較低，所以今年3.08%比較高。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：我想你也預測到今年的CPI，就是有考慮到電價的調整以及醫療費用整個上升的趨勢。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，我剛剛送你一包洋芋片，你拿出來搖一下好不好？我這一包洋芋片跟你這一包洋芋片，我跟你講，這個洋芋片量變少了，我不知道你之前買過洋芋片嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個比較少是不是？"],["賴委員惠員：我們二個都一樣少。"],["朱主計長澤民：一樣少，跟委員報告，我們在做物價調查的時候，它的量少的話，我們會考慮它的價就有漲。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有，我跟你講，它量少價不變。"],["朱主計長澤民：那樣我們就認定物價有上漲。"],["賴委員惠員：這個業者會告訴你說，這個裡面充氣可以保鮮，可是我們知道這是一個縮水式的通膨，民眾關心這個縮水式的通膨，我不知道你在CPI的計算裡有沒有把它算進去？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們有算進去，就像買便當，原來滷蛋是一顆，現在變成一半，我們就認定說它大概漲了大概4、5塊錢，我們都會算到裡面去，我們CPI的計算會考量它的重量、質量的問題，都有考量。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，非常好，所以你的通膨有跟民眾體感的通膨是一樣的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：民眾感覺可能會不太一樣，可是我們在做統計的時候，我們會有考量。"],["賴委員惠員：不一樣怎麼辦？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們在物價指數調的時候會考慮它的重量變化，我們都會考量。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你隨時在調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是說所有的通膨都是在你的掌控中？"],["朱主計長澤民：在理論上。"],["賴委員惠員：那實際上呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們主計總處著重的是成長率，是一個相對物價，個別的話，因為我們調查的項目有兩萬多種，我不可能……像神農嚐百藥，他也只嚐100種，我要調查兩萬多種，每一個細節我並不……"],["賴委員惠員：那你當然應該要調查的啊！你應該要調查清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，我們都有調查，那些資料都有。"],["賴委員惠員：當你體感的CPI跟老百姓更接近的時候，你才會跟大家是接近的。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，因為民眾所接觸的是他每天買的東西，像外食費，但是我們有些電器用品也是在下跌的，那個因為他不是每天都要買，他可能一、兩年才買一次，那個是在下跌的。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，你們2月底公告一份失業率是3.39%的報告，你強調說這是最近23年來最低的一次，可是根據新聞的報導，我們的缺工率一直持續在上升，這個缺工的狀況創了新高，業者積極尋求勞動力補足缺口，為什麼會有這樣的一個狀況？110年到112年統計的實質薪資一直都在下降，老百姓體感感受到的是物價的膨脹更明顯了，我們怎麼樣來解釋這個問題呢？你有沒有辦法從數據上去……我們看到你的數據是沒有辦法反映出來的。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，所謂的失業率降低就是代表就業情況很好，所以缺工的情況就會比較多，二者是反向的關係，像金融危機的時候……"],["賴委員惠員：這個我懂，可是我還是覺得你避開了基本薪資一直太低，然後我們的薪資一直都沒有辦法調漲，這到底是什麼樣的原因？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，它跟產業結構有關係，的確有些科技業的實質薪資是在漲，可是我們有很多的小規模企業因為成本變高了，民眾的消費量也有一定，它會比較少，所以在這個時候，我們就要調整基本工資。"],["賴委員惠員：要調整，你也覺得基本工資要調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們每年都有調。"],["賴委員惠員：每年都有調，可是你調的速度事實上是跟不上勞工的期待。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們會考量經濟情況、各種情形……"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：本席在這裡要求審計部跟主計總處分別針對剛才提出的議題，在1個月內提出書面報告給本席。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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因為這個我沒辦法帶行政機關除說誰來管 這個就是我剛剛退伍委員的之處就是他你能夠再順序到這一塊 這個我們沒有提出來的你現在講的是P2P是由金管會來管 那朱任業你有沒有提出這樣的一個建議 是由哪一位監理機關來管"},{"start":193.165,"end":214.104,"text":"這個部分本來這是民法上的一個問題但是這個可能我們會把這個意見或者委員也把這個意見所以你一定會告訴我這是民間之間的借貸關係是民法那他雖然欠缺了徵信跟帳戶資料保管的不透明的問題好你已經都"},{"start":215.245,"end":242.406,"text":"知道這些問題在哪裡了那誰來管是不是應該做一個積極上的一個建議這個沿著上我們尊重行政部門但是我想應該如果錢都是錢盡量因為我們有成立了金管會盡量由金管會統籌會比較整體非常好沈局長你也看到了這個其實你不能放任就是監管的一個套利所以你認為應該由金管會來"},{"start":243.627,"end":265.409,"text":"我個人啦,但是這個我還是要尊重行政部門的決定來,主計長委員好,謝謝委員的主計長,我伯父的外孫我是白河的外孫,跟你一樣那我想跟你探討就是說在最近就是說"},{"start":266.73,"end":291.019,"text":"其實從2023年就是我們的CPI年增率接近15年來的次高那主計處的統計裡頭我們也看到了非常的清楚就是2023前年度的CPI的年增率是2.5%那今年二月份的CPI你預估會來到3.08那就是說針對整年的那個CPI的一個"},{"start":292.159,"end":320.913,"text":"年增率你預測就是會降低到1.60%對跟委員報告我們最新的是1.85而且沒有報告電池那你認為降到1.85是好還是不好這個我覺得是一個所謂的一個是怎麼樣並沒有很悲觀也沒有很很樂觀因為我們還有電價如果1.85的話加上電價就可能會真的會接近百分之二的那"},{"start":322.314,"end":327.838,"text":"謝謝主計長我想你也就是預測到今年CPI的一個就是有考慮到電價的一個調整還有醫療費用的一個那個就是整個"},{"start":350.444,"end":366.99,"text":"整個一個就是說他上升的一個趨勢主計長我剛送你一包洋芋片你拿出來搖一下好不好我跟你說我這一包洋芋片跟你這一包洋芋片雖然你不要打開喔我跟你講"},{"start":370.251,"end":386.196,"text":"這個洋芋片齁,量變少了。我不知道你之前買過洋芋片嗎?我們兩個都一樣少。那個跟那個委員報告一下,我們在這物價調查的時候啊,它的量少的話,我們會考慮說它的價就有上。"},{"start":386.596,"end":412.004,"text":"沒有我跟你講他量少價不變量少價不變雖然他這個業者會告訴你說這個裡面那個充氣是可以保鮮可是我們知道這是一個縮水式的通膨就是說民眾關心這個縮水式的通膨我不知道你在這個CPI的一個計算裡頭你有沒有把它算進去了"},{"start":412.464,"end":439.122,"text":"對我們有算進去就像買那個便當原來滷蛋是一顆現在變成一半我們就認定說他是漲了大概是漲了大概四塊四五塊錢我們都會算到裡面去我們CPI的那個會考量他的重量他的質量的問題主計長非常好所以你的通膨是有跟民眾的通膨體表的通膨是一樣的嗎"},{"start":440.643,"end":461.713,"text":"那個是民眾感覺是可能會不太一樣可是我們在做統計的時候我們會有考量那不一樣那不一樣怎麼辦呢不一樣我們就在物價指數調的時候會考慮它的那個重量的變化我們都會考慮所以你隨時在調整對謝謝所以就是說所有的通膨都是在你的掌控中"},{"start":463.128,"end":481.664,"text":"欸在理論上啊對對對在理論上那實際上啊實際上因為我們主計總處著重的是一個成長率是一個相對物價個別的話因為我們調查的所謂的花色有兩萬多種我不可能像神龍藏百藥啊他也只藏一百種我這要調查兩萬種每一個細節我"},{"start":484.466,"end":508.899,"text":"那你當然是應該要調查的啊,你應該要調查得更清楚啊,所以就是說你的體感的CPI跟我們老百姓更接近的時候,那你才會是跟大家是接近的啊。對,跟大家委員報告一下,就是因為民眾所接觸是他每天買的東西,像外食會,但是有些電器用品我們也是在下跌的。"},{"start":510.601,"end":524.293,"text":"因為他不是每天都要買他可能一兩年才買一次那個是在下跌的我想主席長你這二月底公告一份失業率是3.39%的一個報告那你強調說這是最近23年來最低的一次"},{"start":531.44,"end":550.707,"text":"可是根據新聞我們新聞的一個報導我們的一個缺工率一直持續在上升那這個缺工的狀況創了新高那業者積極尋求勞動力補足的一個缺口那為什麼會有這樣子的一個狀況就是說你一百"},{"start":551.187,"end":573.142,"text":"一十年到一百一十二年的統計的實質薪資卻一直都是在下降那老百姓感受到了體感感受到的是物價的一個膨脹更明顯了那我們怎麼樣來解釋這個問題呢沒有辦法就是說從數據上去我們看到你的數據是沒有辦法反映出來的"},{"start":573.682,"end":590.432,"text":"委員報告一下因為所謂的那個是失業率降低就是代表就業情況很好所以他的那個缺工的情況就會比較多他兩個是一個反向的關係像金融危機的時候這個我懂主計長我懂"},{"start":592.213,"end":614.865,"text":"可是我還是覺得說你避開了基本薪資一直就是說太低了然後我們的一個薪資一直都沒有辦法調漲這到底是什麼樣的原因跟那個委員報告一下因為他跟產業結構有關係的確有些科技業他的實質薪資是在漲可是我們有很多的小規模企業的話"},{"start":616.386,"end":640.59,"text":"他因為他成本變高了民眾他的那個消費量也有一定所以他會比較少所以我們就是在這個時候我們就要調整基本工資就要調整你也覺得說基本工資要調整我們每年都有調每年都有調可是你調了速度事實上是跟不上就是勞工他們的一個期待"},{"start":641.97,"end":658.955,"text":"對那個是我們會考量的經濟情況謝謝主計長我想本席在這裡要求就是審計部跟主計總處分別針對的就是剛才提出的一個議題在一個院內提出書面報告給本席好謝謝委員好謝謝現在質詢請李燕秀議員"},{"start":674.014,"end":674.056,"text":"謝謝教授"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}