{"error":false,"id":["149758"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149758,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149758","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T10:16:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T10:27:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903db8a8913ecadba2c33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6f6423ec9f839e5235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:16:17 - 10:27:53","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時16分）謝謝召委。我們請部長。"],["主席：好，我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。我想跟部長討論一下，你知道我一直很關心這整個森霸電力第二期燃氣特種建物變更案，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你明明知道我們很關心，但是你們又越來越便宜行事，我一直跟你們要，到底你們怎麼決定它所謂特種建物是不是可以變更，而且它的變更，我一直強調當一個建物如果從基底一層、一層慢慢變更，我相信大家不會有意見，可是它是一次完成、一次變更，被掩蓋在底下的所有問題，沒有人知道，但是你們卻開了一次的會議，這個會議是什麼，在112年11月15日禮拜三，利用我們當時大家都在選舉的時間點，開了這一個會議，這個會議裡面找了委員有三個人，你們說的，委員都沒有意見，委員敢背書，好厲害！委員又沒有從最基層在它第一次變更的時候就參與了，他怎麼能夠看到後面？他怎麼敢這樣背書？結果真的有，有三個委員說對特建變更部分無意見，他怎麼會無意見？他看到了哪些資料。好，裡面還有市政府，市政府也沒意見？好奇怪、好恐怖喔！這是怎樣？中央跟地方全部一起包庇，是這樣嗎？就這樣一紙公文、就這樣一個會議紀錄，就把這個變更案這樣通過了，如果你是在地方，部長如果住在地方，你住在那一個附近，從頭到尾三十幾項的變更，從頭到尾地方沒有人知道，到了完成之後，提出了特種建物的變更之後，大家才瞭解，你敢接受嗎？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，整個特建的變更，當時是審查通過的案子，因為電廠的建設有一定……"],["陳委員亭妃：哪裡審查？就是這樣一份會議紀錄？"],["游署長振偉：電廠的建設有它的特殊性，所以它要根據它實際上所採購的機器設備，針對特種建築的部分做必要的……"],["陳委員亭妃：它從頭到尾都是變更的，從頭到尾跟你們原始送的計畫都不一樣，跟他們原本的規劃也都不同，全部蓋完之後，才一次給能源署變更，你們就這幾個委員以及臺南市政府這樣同意、包庇就OK了嗎？"],["游署長振偉：特種建築物的過程，我們根據它機器設備實際的情況，這一次審查的37項，業者也根據我們原來通過的原則標準，都跟當時通過的原則標準一樣，再次的審視這37項……"],["陳委員亭妃：哪裡一樣？如果真的一樣，為什麼不一項一項的變更，它為什麼不一項一項變更，針對37項，它為什麼當初不一項一項變更？而要一次從頭到尾施工完成之後，再一次變更，為什麼？"],["游署長振偉：這整個……"],["陳委員亭妃：為什麼？今天你蓋房子，一般蓋房子跟地方政府去申請、跟各縣市政府去申請的時候，你要不要一層一層變更？我們政府國家重大的公共建設，要不要一項一項變更？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，因為在環評階段，我們送出去的設計都是比較初期的設計，真正通過之後，才開始細部設計，我舉個例子來講，今天它買一個變壓器，變壓器大小……"],["陳委員亭妃：它這個就是細部設計的變更啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：對，它是細部設計。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：後來才做細部設計變更。"],["陳委員亭妃：它是細部設計的變更，它原本就有送細部設計了，我告訴你，我要質詢你，我一定瞭解得很清楚啦，它從頭到尾、從一開始就有細部設計了，它現在變更的是細部設計，提出了37項變更就是針對細部設計，什麼叫粗略設計跟細部設計？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為細部設計的時候……"],["陳委員亭妃：總經理，你現在在胡扯什麼？"],["王總經理耀庭：不是，細部設計的時候，它買完設備……"],["陳委員亭妃：好。再來，我還記得當時就在這個地方，立法院經濟委員還做出主決議，森霸電廠多項二期工程已完工之後，才進行向能源署申請變更設計，諸多設計與當初環境影響評估的內容不同，為考量當地居民權益及公共安全，經濟部能源署必須提出調查報告，並要求召開地方說明會（臺南市永康區、新市區、新化區、山上區、左鎮區），否則不得擅自同意森霸電廠所提出的變更設計，請貴單位要詳細監督。有沒有？這是我們的主決議。"],["游署長振偉：確實在主決議……"],["陳委員亭妃：有沒有？"],["游署長振偉：有這樣的決議，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！有這樣的決議，那你們憑什麼現在都同意它變更？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，所以我們按照那一天的決議，有關於審查這一個特建的變更，要組成一個專案小組來做詳細的審查。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！調查報告嘛！"],["游署長振偉：所以我們才會有……"],["陳委員亭妃：你有調查報告嗎？"],["游署長振偉：所以我們才會有外部的委員，包括相關的主管機關來做審查，組成專案小組……"],["陳委員亭妃：好啊！你今天就是這一份資料嘛！找了三個委員，開會有了一個會議紀錄，然後就徵詢他們有沒有意見，沒有意見。這就是背書嘛！我很懷疑為什麼這三個委員敢背書，如果發生問題，我們可不可以找他算帳？可不可以？"],["游署長振偉：所以這個……"],["陳委員亭妃：第二個部分，這裡面的主決議寫得很清楚，提出調查報告並要求召開地方說明會，如果沒有，不得擅自同意森霸電廠所提出的變更設計。有沒有？"],["游署長振偉：是，跟委員報告，第一個，特建變更完，委員關心的說明會，所以也……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有喔！寫得很清楚喔！不得擅自同意森霸電廠所提出的變更設計。這是不是變更設計？"],["游署長振偉：這個特建的變更是一個，後面整個電廠，我們回到電業法……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！本來就是連結在一起啊！你們在玩文字遊戲？"],["游署長振偉：不是，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們在玩文字遊戲嗎？"],["游署長振偉：委員那天要求的時候，主決議要求我們要辦說明會這件事情……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["游署長振偉：辦說明會之前，我們要把所有的……"],["陳委員亭妃：而且是調查報告，你現在不是調查報告，我一直要調查報告，你們給我的是一個會議紀錄，我有看會議紀錄，這裡面是什麼樣的報告？是不是有把裡面很詳細的一層一層撥、疊，然後一層一層把它區分開來，瞭解到底這個變更會不會影響到地方的安全，結果沒有！署長，沒有！"],["游署長振偉：我跟委員報告，一個是特建變更，一個是天然氣管線的安全檢查……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有。"],["游署長振偉：那是另外一個安全檢查，所以在委員的那些決議之後，我們也要求森霸公司要針對天然氣管線的圖資資料，以及其他的安全檢測都要做……"],["陳委員亭妃：那是其中一個部分。署長，你要不要調我之前從頭到尾所有的質詢，我講的就是變更設計，就是特種建築物的變更案，我從頭到尾講的都是這個，你們現在在跟我玩文字遊戲，然後東扯西扯，你們現在是為誰包庇啊？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這整個是……"],["陳委員亭妃：我只有問，如果地方發生問題誰要擔當？誰要負責？誰要擔當、誰要負責？"],["游署長振偉：這個電廠本來……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個特種建築物變更，從頭到尾沒有進行變更，一次完成提出37項的變更，然後你說要調查報告沒有調查報告，只有一份所謂的會議紀錄，請了3個委員跟臺南市政府，你們跟我講，委員沒有意見、臺南市政府沒有意見，就只有徵詢他們的意見，然後說我對特種變更沒有意見，這樣就結束了，這樣就結束了！然後我裡面寫得很清楚，我的主決議就說，要召開地方說明會，我就說嘛！"],["游署長振偉：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你才能同意這個森霸電廠的變更。沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["游署長振偉：這個說明會我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有。"],["游署長振偉：我們會等天然氣管線已經做了智慧檢測……"],["陳委員亭妃：你看吧！"],["游署長振偉：天然氣管線檢測完之後……"],["陳委員亭妃：你看吧！我裡面有說「天然氣管線」嗎？"],["游署長振偉：會有完整的……"],["陳委員亭妃：署長，哈囉、哈囉！哈囉、哈囉！我裡面有說是天然氣管線嗎？你要不要看我的主決議呢？哈囉、哈囉！你要不要看我的主決議？你要不要看我的主決議嘛！我又沒有說「天然氣管線」！我們針對管線……我當時候所有的質詢有好多樣，都是為了地方的安全，我質詢好多樣。"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我有寫管線嗎？我在這裡面有寫管線嗎？"],["游署長振偉：在我們來看……"],["陳委員亭妃：我講的是一體性的，在你來看……"],["游署長振偉：電廠安全營運就包括……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是今天你要我從頭到尾……從頭到尾我的質詢，你們怎麼能夠包庇成這個樣子？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，我們都按照……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們怎麼能夠這樣子，依照你們的想法，請問我們地方的權益跟我們的安全在哪裡？"],["游署長振偉：委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：在哪裡？"],["游署長振偉：委員要求的說明會，我們會在管線……整體出來之後……"],["陳委員亭妃：在哪裡？你們都已經同意它了！特種都同意它了！"],["游署長振偉：特種建物是整個電廠建設裡面的一個環節，另外包括它後面的……"],["陳委員亭妃：署長，我只要瞭解，誰替我們地方的安全把關？誰？誰？"],["游署長振偉：包括我們能源署、包括地方政府、包括業者本身……"],["陳委員亭妃：好。"],["游署長振偉：都要為這個電廠的營運安全做把關。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果發生問題你要負責嗎？如果發生問題你要負責嗎？如果發生了任何危險性的問題，你們都來不及了啦！等你們下去，都來不及了啦！誰在遭殃？誰在受害？地方！請你們記得！"],["主席：謝謝、謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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