{"error":false,"id":["149769"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149769,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149769","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T10:32:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T10:44:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69038b7dccf36cc535dbb77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6c6e21bf91d2494025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:32:59 - 10:44:25","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長好。在去年我們全臺灣人民有一個小確幸，就是因為我們的稅收超徵，後來因為我提出還稅於民，那麼後來不分朝野很多位的委員都呼應，最後造成發現金，就是我們每個人都可以收6,000塊現金，2022年我們的稅收超徵是4,500億，可以看到這個是當時蔡英文總統臉書的一個分配，有拿出1,800億來普發現金給每個人，當然，其他的就去規劃一些給地方政府，還有一個很重要的，包含去做電價補貼，撥補台電。今年其實稅收超徵的金額也不少，起碼達到3,600億。我想請問主計長，今年有沒有機會再來還稅於民、再普發現金？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，外界講的3,600億是包括地方政府在裡面，另外一個的話，今年雖然稅收超徵，可是我們今年仍然有發行公債，而且特別預算裡面也有公債，如果扣掉這些以後，剩下只有一千多億，而且……"],["王委員鴻薇：剩下多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概1,500億不到。"],["王委員鴻薇：1,500億不到喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，如果要發現金的話，可能又要一個特別條例。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我知道，我瞭解。"],["朱主計長澤民：又會說我們濫用第八十三條第四款。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦，主計長，我知道，我只是問你，會不會發現金，你說不會，你說現在……"],["朱主計長澤民：目前沒有這個規畫。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你說現在不會發。你剛才有講一個數字我很感興趣，你說雖然大家講3,600億，但是你好像有一些公債等等之類的，是不是？所以事實上金額……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為我們還有公債，我不能夠說我有賸餘，然後我又去借錢，那就是矛盾的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好的，那我請問一下，所以剛才你講的大概是1,500億左右是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，1,500億。"],["朱主計長澤民：而且要等審計部7、8月審計完了以後，我才能夠用，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：你才能用對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我現在要問你一個很重要的問題，因為現在大家非常關心物價、關心電價上漲，電價到底要漲多少？到現在經濟部口風很緊，大概只知道有10%以上，另外經濟部也對外說，就是因為有稅收超徵，所以今年經濟部爭取這個稅收超徵的部分要補助、撥補台電，希望能夠達到1,500億。剛才主計長說現在也只剩1,500億，那麼撥補台電1,500億的可能性有嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我現在沒有看到經濟部的任何方案，所以我不能夠說到底會撥補多少。我剛才說有1,500億，我1,500億統統撥出去以後，就像一個家庭一樣，它都沒有賸餘款，那個是很危險的……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為主計長就像我們的大帳房，對不對？所以你說現在我們雖然稅收超徵，但是你有發行公債等等其他的支出，所以現在也不過剩1,500億，如果把1,500億全部都撥補台電的話，那麼我們就沒有賸餘了，是不是？我這樣講正不正確？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是沒有賸餘，對，的確。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以要撥補台電1,500億很困難。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我現在是說如果要撥的話，編明（114）年的預算會很吃緊。"],["王委員鴻薇：很吃緊喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那撥1,000億有沒有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不做這種預估，因為那個方案是台電要提出來的，我沒有看到這個是1,500的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，瞭解，所以主計長的意思是，如果剩1,500億的話，明年預算幾乎都很難編了。好，時間暫停，我請一下審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長先留步，我還沒問完，還是有相關，不好意思。"],["主席：請稍等。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長，剛才主計長講了一個很重要的觀念，就是今年的稅收超徵審計部還沒有完成審定，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是問題是4月電價就要上漲了，而且電價上漲的幅度來自於稅收超徵可以撥補台電多少，這個程序對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：電價上漲就是電價上漲，它是漲電價，要撥補是另外一回事，兩個不能一起看。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為電價上漲會增加收入，撥補台電會增加台電的資本，增加它的現金，兩個都對現金有幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在程序上剛才主計長也講了，一定要先經過審計部的審定之後，才能確定能夠撥補台電多少，這個程序是一定要這樣走，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個它到底有多少賸餘，我們要把112年的決算審定完以後才能確認下來，因為有時候會找到它是稽徵收入的，有時候會找到某一種……所以到底多少……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊要特別去釐清，因為最近經濟部一直在放話說，這次稅收超徵3,600億，現在台電希望要1,500億，可是主計長已經說這樣子明年預算怎麼編？雖然主計長不曉得會不會繼續留任啦！那現在就給它1,500億，下一任新政府的預算，就是賴清德的預算很難編，1,000億看起來也很難。可是兩位，主計長、審計長，現在我們這個稅收超徵，我剛一直講說會不會還稅於民、會不會普發現金？我早就知道不會普發現金，因為你這個錢，有好多部會都有很多的赤字、很多的債務，不只台電在這邊已經喊著要這個1,500億，現在還有勞保基金，因為也在2028年可能會破產，所以連勞動部也在想這塊，就像那個什麼也在流口水，也希望在這一次能夠撥補勞保基金的空缺。好，那你現在全部只有1,500億，如果1,500億統統給台電，勞保基金就沒錢了，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，社會保險它的恐怖不是它什麼時候會倒，而是它不會倒，所以我們必須去面對，而且……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我現在問你的是……"],["朱主計長澤民：補助也不是唯一的辦法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在問你是……"],["朱主計長澤民：同樣的，台電你一直給它補助，你不給它電價調高，未來就不見得有這麼多的稅收超徵能夠補助它……"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！沒錯，這一點我同意啊！稅收超徵……"],["朱主計長澤民：所以電價的補助跟電價的調整必須雙管齊下，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思是說電價還是要調整，但我們現在就是說這筆錢怎麼算，因為連勞保基金都在想你這個錢，問題是你現在根本沒有這麼多錢，他們想像中3,600億，1,500億給台電，還有2,000億啊！2,000億勞保基金也可以來分一分啊！因為在去年的時候，他們分到了550億，讓他們覺得很補。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，如果要把3,600億統統用到的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦！最後結論，有沒有可能台電補1,500億，然後勞保基金補500億，有沒有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：勞保基金的部分，今年總共就已經補了它1,300億了。"],["王委員鴻薇：那是去年啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：今年啦！今年的預算有1,300億。"],["王委員鴻薇：那是去……啊！我知道，你那個是預算，我是說稅收超徵部分的這個錢，有沒有可能嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們的錢是統收統支，並沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以按照你剛才計算，就沒有可能再給勞保基金了嘛！對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：勞保基金的錢是統收統支的概念補它。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我時間到了，我還有2分鐘，早知道我還可以問一下物價。我要講的是我們現在是叫做寅吃卯糧，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有寅吃卯糧……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在稅收超徵根本是一個機會，就是說它並不是每一年都應該發生的事情……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有寅吃卯糧，我們都是按照大院通過的預算在處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：哎呀！主計長，我講話，你一直在插嘴，在幹嘛啦？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！因為你說……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才問你，你回答就好啦！我在講話，你也一直在講話，是怎樣呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：抱歉。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在大家都想要稅收超徵這3,600億，但是這錢，我今天至少釐清一個觀念，剛才主計長講了，其實這樣子七折八扣也只不過1,500億，但是現在台電要1,500億，勞保基金也想……他們都是公開講喔！他們也希望從這個稅收超徵能夠去幫基金撥補，因為他們的虧損過大。主計長剛剛講的話我完全都同意，稅收超徵不是年年超徵，但是這些台電虧損跟勞保基金虧損是年年都在虧損，而且虧損是一年比一年多，不只台電虧損，中油也還在虧損。如果今天政府想著我們的虧損只是拿稅收超徵來補的話，這叫做寅吃卯糧，而現在全部補完了之後，就如同主計長所講的，那麼明年預算很難編。","我的結論就是，蔡政府把這些錢都花光了，最後讓賴清德他去編預算的時候，是很困難編的，所以我同意政府的財政不是這樣做法。台電要減少它的虧損，不是來自於說每年稅收超徵要給我1,000億、給我1,500億，這個非長久之計。更何況剛才審計長也講得非常清楚了，你怎麼可以現在就講1,500億？審計部都還沒有審定，你台電憑什麼現在就要錢？所以這個也是於程序不符啦！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員。發言完畢，休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.30784375,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.16721875,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.87409375,"end":33.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.135343750000004,"end":35.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.924093750000004,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.00409375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.52221875,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.821593750000005,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.782843750000005,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.82409375,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.734718750000006,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.81846875,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.39159375,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.71534375,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.65596875,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.86659375,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.63409375,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.42284375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.32846875,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.51659375000001,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.72721875,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.24159375,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.38846875,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.09721875000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.97034375000001,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.85596875,"end":124.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.26909375000001,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.56846875000001,"end":137.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.98034375,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":137.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.91159375,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.85159375,"end":150.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.35346875000002,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.82096875000002,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.65596875,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.30534375000002,"end":162.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.68471875,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.45909375000002,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.03034375000001,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.41721875000002,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.14284375000003,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.92659375000002,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.74284375000002,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.06409375,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.62909375,"end":249.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.01721875,"end":253.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.62846875000002,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.21784375000004,"end":263.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.83784375,"end":275.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.22846875,"end":283.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.83034375,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.06596875,"end":291.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.30596875000003,"end":294.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.12846875,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.14534375,"end":294.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.86659375,"end":304.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.99596875000003,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.02971875000003,"end":305.08034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對不對"},{"start":229.187,"end":239.616,"text":"所以你說現在以我們雖然稅收超徵但是你有發行公債等等其他的支出所以呢現在也不過剩1500億如果把1500億全部都撥補台電的話那麼我們就沒有剩餘了是不是我這樣講這麼正確就是沒有那個剩餘對的確所以"},{"start":250.825,"end":252.246,"text":"要撥補台電1500億很困難對我現在是說如果要撥的話到明年編114的預算會很吃緊很吃緊那撥1000億有沒有可能這個是我不做"},{"start":265.811,"end":285.794,"text":"請審計長"},{"start":289.63,"end":317.017,"text":"主計長先留步我還沒問完呢還是有相關不好意思啊請稍等委員好 審計長剛才主計長講了一個很重要的觀念就是說今年的稅收超徵還沒有完成我們審計部還沒有審定對不對可是問題是4月4月電價就要上漲了而且他電價上漲的幅度來自於這個稅收超徵可以撥補台電多少這個程序對嗎"},{"start":319.588,"end":320.209,"text":"所以在程序上剛才主計長也講了"},{"start":340.959,"end":366.139,"text":"一定要先經過審計部的審定之後才能夠確定能夠撥補台電多少這個程序是一定要這樣走對不對他到底有沒有多少剩餘我們要把這個112年度的結算審定完以後才確認下來因為有時候會找到他是期增收入的有時候會找到某一種那個所以到底多少"},{"start":366.579,"end":380.15,"text":"所以我在這邊要特別去釐清因為最近經濟部一直在放說這次稅收超生3600億啊經濟就是台電可以拿他現在希望要1500億可是主計長已經說這樣子明年預算怎麼編雖然主計長不曉得會不會繼續留任那現在就給他1500億下一任的新政府的預算就是賴清德的預算還很難編"},{"start":390.379,"end":411.333,"text":"一千億看起來也很難可是啊主計長兩位署議長審計長現在我們這個稅收超徵我剛剛一直講說會不會啊就是還稅移民會不會普發現金我早就知道不會普發現金因為你這個錢啊好多部會啊因為他們都很多的赤字很多的債務"},{"start":412.794,"end":438.802,"text":"不只台電在這邊已經喊著要這個1500億現在還有勞保基金院也在2028年可能會破產所以呢連勞動部也在想這塊就像那個什麼也在流口水也希望能夠在這一次能夠撥補勞保基金的空缺好那你現在全部只有1500億如果1500億通通給台電"},{"start":442.903,"end":467.015,"text":"老保基金就沒錢了對不對跟那個委員報告一下社會保險他的恐怖不是他什麼時候會倒而是他不會倒所以說我們必須去面對而且補助也不是唯一的辦法同樣的台電你一直給他補助你不給他電價調高未來就不見得有這麼多的稅收超徵能夠補助他這一點我同意啊"},{"start":470.217,"end":471.639,"text":"所以你的意思是說電價還是要調整但我們現在就是說這個底錢怎麼算因為連勞保基金都在想你這個錢但問題是你現在根本沒有這麼多錢"},{"start":486.957,"end":501.48,"text":"他們想像中2600億、3600億、1500億給台電還有2000億啊2000億呢勞保基金也可以來分一分啊因為在去年的時候呢他們分到了550億讓他們覺得很補好啦最後結論有沒有可能台電"},{"start":512.596,"end":538.558,"text":"補1500億然後勞保基金補500億有沒有可能?勞保基金今年就總共已經補了他1300億了那是去年啦今年啦今年的預算啦有1300億啊我知道那個預算我是說稅收超徵的部分這個錢有沒有可能嘛我們的錢是統收統資並沒有所以沒有可能按照你剛才計算就沒有可能再給勞保基金了嘛對不對"},{"start":539.861,"end":540.662,"text":"我要講的是我們現在是叫做銀吃卯糧"},{"start":558.331,"end":575.347,"text":"對不起現在就是說稅收超生根本是一個機會就是說並不是每一年都應該發生的事情哎呀主計長我講話你一直在插嘴在幹嘛啦我剛才問你問你你就回答就好啦我在講話你一直在講話是怎樣呢抱歉"},{"start":579.907,"end":600.206,"text":"現在大家都想要稅收超徵這3600億但是這錢我今天至少釐清一個觀念剛才佐記長講了其實這樣子七折八扣也只不過1500億但是呢現在台電要1500億勞保基金也想他們都是公開講喔他們也希望從這個稅收超徵能夠去幫這個基金撥補因為他們的這個虧損過大"},{"start":604.31,"end":628.429,"text":"那所以稅收超徵不是年年超徵主計長剛講的話我完全的同意稅收超徵不是年年超徵但是這些台電虧損跟勞保基金虧損是年年都在虧損而且虧損是一年比一年多不只台電虧損周永還在虧損如果今天我們的政府想著我們的虧損只是想拿稅收超徵來補的話這叫做飲吃卯糧"},{"start":631.872,"end":650.935,"text":"而現在全部補完了之後就如同主計長所講的那麼明年預算很難編那我的結論就是蔡政府把這些錢都花光了最後讓賴清德他去編預算的時候是很困難編的所以我同意政府的財政不是這樣做法"},{"start":651.716,"end":651.736,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":682.305,"end":686.575,"text":"下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員發言完畢休息5分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}