{"error":false,"id":["149786"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149786,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149786","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T11:03:03+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T11:13:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690388c84b69406c399833e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a60c48c7cb505eef785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:03:03 - 11:13:35","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":524,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我們共事這幾年期間，我覺得您表現非常好，對經濟部各項政策你都能夠充分掌握。我希望你留任，還是你要步步高昇？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員肯定經濟部的努力，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你留任，如果不能留任，我也希望你有更高的職位、更好的發展。那你個人的規劃呢？"],["王部長美花：我沒有個人的規劃。我想在經濟部，因為委員非常清楚經濟部的業務……"],["邱委員志偉：非常難做，業務繁雜。"],["王部長美花：是，我覺得對國家做這些事情非常有意義。"],["邱委員志偉：而且你有做出成績來，但是當然不可能100分，那我覺得你大概有80分左右，所以希望你繼續努力。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員肯定。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，先請教一下離岸風電區塊開發，這兩天媒體有很多報導，台積電說綠電發展太慢，供應不足，到底是什麼原因他會這樣說？為什麼他會這樣說？"],["王部長美花：台積電其實都跟我們有密切的聯繫，那確實廠商要求他，譬如2025、2030、2040綠電的量百分比確實要求地會越來越快，所以台積電是說，如果未來2025、2030等等，現在不趕快準備的話……"],["邱委員志偉：這會影響他的投資意願，你知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你的綠電發展太慢，供應不足，而且價格太貴。"],["王部長美花：所以他對我們趕快發展綠電，他確實也有跟我們提醒，速度上不要落後了，是。"],["邱委員志偉：綠電投報率過低，所以3-2期的招標會不會因為這樣子而延後？這些開發商聯名跟你陳情嘛？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：IRR、投報率低於4，所以他們認為說這個是不是投標了，但是不是不要那麼早決標，到年底再決定？你們目前的決策呢？"],["王部長美花：是，我們確實收到他們的來文，這個部分我們會內部討論一下，我們也會跟廠商溝通。"],["邱委員志偉：所以加上3-1期，3-1期也有很多問題，預計到2026、2027才會併網；3-2期也是2028、2029。這個併網期程目前的規劃有沒有改變？"],["王部長美花：目前確實開發商跟我們提到不是在臺灣的問題，是全球的問題，就是這個開發商的相關成本，國外的利息很高……"],["邱委員志偉：那個原因我都知道，媒體都有很多討論。"],["王部長美花：讓他的資金成本跟供應鏈等等受到影響。所以確實都有提到這個期程的問題，那我們都有跟他密切討論。"],["邱委員志偉：你會延後多久，這不可測。你如果延後太久，併網時間延後兩、三年，那你延後的影響，當然是對綠電供應會有很大的缺口，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們預估這個併網的期程會延後多久？"],["王部長美花：目前我們會跟他們仔細地討論，那他們有提到一個非常不可控制的，就是船……"],["邱委員志偉：國際大環境會那麼快改變嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，還有船……"],["邱委員志偉：國際大環境改變也需要時間啊！"],["王部長美花：另外就是排船期，如果國際上沒有足夠的船來安裝的話，也會是一個非常重要的因素。"],["邱委員志偉：大家都在搶船，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：然後國際大環境也不可能瞬間變化，一定需要長期慢慢地調整，對不對？所以延後兩、三年有可能嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們最近會密集跟他們討論。"],["邱委員志偉：另外就國產化，當然綠電成本會增加，之前我跟你討論過了。綠電的供應量增加跟國產化的到位，到底你要怎麼樣取得一個平衡點？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，這個部分我們確實都會非常細膩地，然後也看國內的供應鏈到底能夠供應的量是多少，然後做這兩方面的考量。"],["邱委員志偉：這個你們要權衡。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：都能夠雙贏。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["邱委員志偉：不要變成雙輸耶！"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，中小及新創企業署，賴副總統曾經在去年9月公布「打造新創雨林生態系」這是國政白皮書、國政的一個願景，也通過「亞洲．矽谷3.0方案」，當然這是國發會的業務，我也召開相關的比方說修法，或者是政策必須要做調整。這個部分，中小及新創企業署相對在部裡面的聲音比較小，但新創很重要，我提出了修法，署長，你瞭解我的修法內容嗎？"],["何署長晉滄：大概知道……"],["邱委員志偉：你不能說大概，我的提案你要很清楚，還講「大概」！「大概」就是你對這個業務不熟悉，才會講「大概」。"],["何署長晉滄：我知道委員有在關切修法的……"],["邱委員志偉：我會要求你們針對創投跟新創事業，每年度都要比照中小企業白皮書一樣，因為現在合併成中小及新創企業署，你針對中小企業每年都有白皮書，這是法律的規定，你也按照中小企業白皮書內容的模式，提出創投事業及新創事業白皮書。部長，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我覺得委員這個提議是有道理的，對。"],["邱委員志偉：那你要做啊！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：就是有道理，你要做啊！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以今年度你就比照中小企業白皮書，今年你就把創投事業及新創事業白皮書弄一本出來，把未來要做的事情、願景全部提出來。"],["王部長美花：是，我們對新創，因為我們單位的名稱也包括中小跟新創，所以由他來提新創的白皮書，我覺得也是應該。那創投的部分，確實在分工上……"],["邱委員志偉：那沒有關係，你可以說新創事業白皮書。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你把創投另外再處理沒有關係。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我希望你今年就要提出新創事業白皮書。何署長，可以嗎？"],["何署長晉滄：好，是。"],["邱委員志偉：今年喔！越快越好。","另外，如何提升臺灣在AI產業的產值跟國際話語權？臺灣的生成式AI之興起如果沒有趕上時代，這個可能會造成重大的國安危機，所以我們AI的經濟產值跟AI的國際話語權必須要提高。產值要提高，話語權也要增加，這牽涉到什麼？AI模型的建立有幾個階段，包括預先訓練（Pre-training）、落地微調（Fine-tuning）、推論應用，我想這個邏輯很清楚。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：經濟部必須跟數發部及其他的跨部會，你要把數位轉型這三階段、AI模型建立三階段迅速到位。這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法？"],["王部長美花：有，其實跨部會都有在討論這個部分。目前大家覺得，左邊第一個的Pre-training部分，大家認為這個部分因為要投入的資源非常大，臺灣應該不要就先講這一個部分，但是第二個跟第三個是現在臺灣確實也有在發展的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：產官學界都應該要針對特別應用領域培訓AI專業技能。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：包括律師、法官、會計師，所有專業人員都需要落地微調、需要有這個應用領域的專業技能，這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法？"],["王部長美花：對我們經濟部來講，其實我們每個禮拜的業務會報都有一個專門的時間在討論這個議題，我們……"],["邱委員志偉：這個Fine-tuning的訓練成本很高啊！"],["王部長美花：Fine-tuning的部分事實上……"],["邱委員志偉：部長要怎麼把這個過高的成本降低？"],["王部長美花：目前國科會這邊是有國際的比較開放的LLaMA2這樣一個軟體來做相關的training，然後另外有一個中文的資料庫系統在做。"],["邱委員志偉：全方位地把AI模型的微調訓練成本降低，你才能普及化，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：各行各業才都能應用。如果沒有各行各業普及應用的話，會變成國安危機啊！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：跟其他國家比，我們就趕不上了！所以我們的AI產值未來怎麼樣能提高？怎麼樣運用我們現在的優勢增加國際話語權？這個部分我覺得經濟部要很重視。"],["王部長美花：是的，有。我們覺得臺灣已經有很好的AI晶片了，然後再往前推AI的設計，另外是怎麼樣到各行各業對AI的應用，這個部分臺灣確實很有機會把它做好。"],["邱委員志偉：本席已經算是資深了，要遵守質詢的紀律，時間到了我就應該結束。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員的發言，也謝謝部長。"],["邱委員志偉：提供給新進立法委員一個質詢的倫理。"],["主席：你在講給賴瑞隆聽的嗎？","接下來請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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對不對 是 那你們預估啊 這個併網期程會延後多久"},{"start":220.107,"end":246.965,"text":"目前我們其實會跟他們來做仔細的討論那他們有提到一個非常不可控制就是船另外就是說排船起他們如果說國際上的沒有足夠的船來安裝的話也會是一個非常重要的因素大家都要搶船嘛 對不對然後國際大環境也不可能瞬間變化一定需要長期慢慢的這個調整嘛"},{"start":247.845,"end":256.76,"text":"對不對,所以這種我覺得延後兩三年有可能嗎?我們最近會密集來跟他們討論另外國產化,國產化會當然一個歷練什麼會增加嘛之前我跟妳討論過了"},{"start":261.539,"end":285.39,"text":"國產化跟綠電的供應量增加跟國產化這個到位到底你這個要怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點沒有錯就是這個部分我們確實都會非常細膩的然後也來看國內的這個供應量到底能夠供應的量是多少然後來做這個兩方面的一個考量這個你要去權衡都能夠雙贏不要變成雙輸"},{"start":289.612,"end":317.385,"text":"另外,中小集創新創事業署賴副總統曾經公布在去年9月打造新創雨林的生態系這是一個國政白皮書,國政的願景然後也通過亞洲矽谷3.0當然這是國會的業務我也召開這個相關的,不光說修法﹖或者是政策必須要做調整"},{"start":318.425,"end":331.902,"text":"所以這個部分啊 這個中小跟新創企業組相對在部裡面的這個聲音比較小 但新創很重要我提出的修法 我希望那個 組長、副組長 你了解我的修法內容嗎?"},{"start":334.428,"end":337.672,"text":"我會要求你們針對這個新創創投跟新創事業每年度都要比照中小企業白皮書一樣"},{"start":353.971,"end":354.251,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":384.517,"end":385.148,"text":"把他弄一本出來"},{"start":386.734,"end":387.234,"text":"新創事業白皮書"},{"start":415.677,"end":426.52,"text":"主席,今年越快越好。另外,如果提升台灣在AI產業的產值跟國際的話語權,"},{"start":437.482,"end":457.058,"text":"台灣深層式AI的興起如果沒有趕上時代這個可能會造成重大的國安危機所以我們的AI的經濟產值跟AI的國際話語權必須要提高產值要提高話語權也要增加這牽涉到什麼AI模型的建立有幾個階段"},{"start":458.837,"end":466.904,"text":"包括預先訓練、落地微調、推論應用這部分我想這個邏輯很清楚這部分你必須要經濟部、蘇發部跟其他的跨部會你要把這個數位轉型這個三階段AI模型建立三階段把它迅速到位"},{"start":485.257,"end":506.202,"text":"這部分這個經濟部有沒有什麼想法?有,其實跨部會都有在討論這個部分那目前大家覺得就左邊第一個那個Pretraining的部分大家認為這個部分因為他投入資源非常大那台灣應該不要先就講這一個部分但是對第二個跟第三個部分"},{"start":507.543,"end":513.09,"text":"參觀學界都應該要針對特別應用領域有培訓的AI專業機器﹖包括律師、法官、會計師所有專業人員都需要落地的微調﹖"},{"start":524.588,"end":542.233,"text":"需要有這個應用領域的專業技能這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法?對,我們經濟部來講我們其實每個禮拜的業務會報都有一個專門的時間討論這個議題但是Fightuning的這個訓練成本很高啊Fightuning的部分事實上你部長有沒有什麼怎麼樣把這個成本過高的問題來降低"},{"start":551.631,"end":577.134,"text":"目前國科會這邊是有國際的這個比較開放是Lama2的這樣的一個軟體來做相關的training然後另外有一個中文的資料庫的系統在做有和全方位的把AI這個模型的AI模型的這個微調訓練成本把它降低你才能普及化是對不對才能各行各地都能運用這個如果你沒有這個"},{"start":578.156,"end":582.811,"text":"各行各域普及應用的話會變成國安危機跟其他國家我們就趕不上"},{"start":584.099,"end":611.995,"text":"所以這部分我覺得這個AI未來這個怎麼樣的產值能夠提高怎麼樣影響用我們的現在優勢能不能增加國際化學權這個經濟部要很重視是有有我們覺得這是臺灣已經有很好的AI晶片了然後再往前推AI的設計然後另外怎麼樣到各行各業AI的應用這個部分那確實臺灣也很有機會把它做好因為本行已經算是資深了"},{"start":613.516,"end":621.083,"text":"這個要遵守這個質詢的紀律。時間到了我就應該要。時間到了。提供給這個新進的這個立法委員一個質詢的一個倫理。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}