{"error":false,"id":["149787"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149787,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149787","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T11:02:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T11:14:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69039b08582dd377808db77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6e4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:02:04 - 11:14:02","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時2分）主席，各位列席委員，大家好。主席，我想請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長好。今年2月29日舉辦記者會，把今年CPI年增率上修至1.18%。"],["朱主計長澤民：1.85%。"],["顏委員寬恒：不好意思，講錯了，1.85%。今年2月CPI指數年增率飆上3.08%，那是近20個月以來最高、新高，這應該是沒有考量電費上漲的問題？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果加上4月份電費上漲，我國今年CPI會不會再一次的突破通膨警戒線？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，是有可能。"],["顏委員寬恒：極有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：2月份的消費指數年增率為3.08%，已經是20個月裡面最高，你可以說是因為春節物價上漲，如果以1到2月份平均來講，CPI已經上升2.43%是處於高檔，有沒有可能外食費、房租費都持續上漲，再加上4月份的電價上漲，有業者就是把這些電費直接轉嫁到消費者的身上，不管你是外食族還是租屋族，任何一個行業都會，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，電價如果是民生用電，會由消費者負擔，外食費目前還在漲的趨勢，前些時候都有4%的成長，不過它現在還是在漲，可是漲幅有降低的現象……"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，通膨什麼的都在漲，萬物齊漲，電費也要漲，接下來水費，我想也要漲了，都在漲！所以整體的物價指數肯定是下不來，今年1月、2月醫院、診所的掛號費也漲了，診所漲了10%，醫院漲1.49%，其實再加上外食費、房租之類的，外食費漲0.48%，這些東西不會有再調降的可能，對不對？可不可以這麼講，不會調降了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，它漲了以後就……"],["顏委員寬恒：調不回來了？"],["朱主計長澤民：一般都是比較不會回到……"],["顏委員寬恒：漲了，就回不來了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，對吧？漲了就回不來了，所以大家也不用再去說政府怎麼樣調控，可以讓物價降低。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個市場現象，不可能啦！"],["顏委員寬恒：不可能了啦？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以今天是大白話，不可能回來了啦。","我們每年調高基本薪資，調高基本薪資是不是也是物價上漲的一個元兇、一個幫助犯？因為調高薪資，所以物價也跟著漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：兩個的因果關係很難講，因為物價漲了，薪資如果不漲也好像不是很妥當。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是跟著上嗎，就是我們漲是美化數字，但是就跟不上了，你漲一點，它就漲得比你更快一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦！除非它漲得很高，因為薪水的漲幅一般可能是在後面。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們會越來越窮，目前的情況是這樣，就是越來越窮，尤其我們經常性薪資平均4萬5,496元，實質經常性薪資是4萬1,334元，其實調整後的數字，實質經常性的薪資又降低了0.5%，連續3年來的負數，實質總薪資也減少了1.04%，是7年來首度的負成長，所以這就是告訴我們確實是越來越窮，加薪的速度遠遠跟不上，而通膨，現在萬物齊漲，光是外食族現在買一個100元以下的便當，買得到嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：應該買不到了，不過就像雞腿便當大概120元，排骨便當中、南部有大概八、九十元的。"],["顏委員寬恒：租金呢？如果租房呢？現在1萬塊以下的房屋還有嗎？就是我們說的租屋。"],["朱主計長澤民：那可能要分租。"],["顏委員寬恒：分租？我跟你講，現在戲稱臺北市要租6,000元、7,000元、8,000元的房屋叫做鬼屋，所以你就知道多恐怖。現在我們的實質經常性薪資都是負數，大家都在討論這樣的情況，剛剛我們前面幾位委員也都有問到這些，通膨跟薪資水平之間面臨的挑戰，我們只是不斷地討論，到底有沒有什麼解決的辦法？因為我要講，我們剛剛提到的薪資，經常性的四萬五千多元，實質性的四萬一千多，實際上，光是現在在這個會場現場裡面的很多工作人員，有沒有四萬多、五萬多的薪水？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟各位委員報告一下，我們所謂的薪資是包括各項福利性所得，就是有老闆所負擔的勞退費用，統統都有在裡面……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我說的就是其實很多基層，不管是我們立法院的工作同仁，還是很多基層的公務人員都一樣，他們的薪水都是我們剛剛公布的這個基準線以下。"],["朱主計長澤民：平均數……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，平均數以下，所以是非常、非常辛苦的。我想要請問主計長，我們到底要怎麼樣才能夠解決這種低薪高通膨的問題？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為在經濟學上，薪水就等於他對這個企業或這個單位的貢獻有多少、他產出的價值有多少，所以他要有良好的產出，他才有高價值的東西，所以他的薪水才……","另外一個，如果沒有辦法，就是社會福利政策，就像基本工資的提升，或者是政府給予補助。"],["顏委員寬恒：補貼，你能舉例嗎？怎麼樣來補貼，可以讓民眾覺得好過、覺得不會越來越窮？"],["朱主計長澤民：像我們對年輕人的育兒津貼，生一個補助5,000元，生兩個就1萬元，或者是對那些租屋族，我們有一個……"],["顏委員寬恒：這幾項可能地方政府也都在做，生育補貼……"],["朱主計長澤民：生育補貼，地方政府都是補助生產的那一次，我們是每個月。"],["顏委員寬恒：每個月？有辦法每個月嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：每個月5,000，一年就6萬了。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是啦，我們在這邊討論這些問題是要找出怎麼樣解決薪資的問題，跟這些物價上漲的問題。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：但是我發覺我們在討論這一些，不管是怎麼樣提高基本薪資，都是在美化數字，永遠跟不上，所以政府要怎麼樣去調控這些通膨，有沒有有效的抑制通膨？這個才是重點。"],["朱主計長澤民：有時候市場制度，我們必須尊重，但是不恰當的物價上漲，公平會就要看看有沒有聯合壟斷，法務部就看他們有沒有囤積居奇。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。主計長，我們要考慮到真實的數字，不是美化過後的數字，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們不會啦！我們的統計數字都是真實的。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在百姓的生活痛苦指數不斷升高，非常、非常的高，對吧？我們再加油，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們請審計長。"],["主席：謝謝，請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：審計長好。我們有一個300億租金補貼計畫，到今年2月底受理大概61萬戶，核定的件數43萬戶，有超過三成，即30%的人拿不到這個補貼。本席認為這300億的補貼政策是好的，但是實際上拿到的卻不到七成，你可不可以告訴我為什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為大家租屋會有些隱瞞，有一些人希望能夠避稅，所以造成一些問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我直接問重點，時間的問題啦！","我在這個社群平台上看到，有些人的申請，第一期通過了補貼，第二期卻被討回，因為他沒有房屋稅籍、沒有稅單，但應該是去要求房東拿房屋稅單去補房屋稅。結果卻不是這樣，反而要申請補貼的房客取消他的補貼，要他歸還，這樣子對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這樣……"],["顏委員寬恒：這樣不對嘛！你們規定在申請補貼的時候不需要知會房東，也不需要房東同意嘛！他當然拿不到也不知道有沒有房屋稅籍，但他就是因為有需要，也符合規定才來申請租屋補貼。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是你補貼他之後，又或者他在申請過程當中，你就直接告訴他不符規定。為什麼第一期會符合規定補貼他，之後第二期還要叫他返還？我要問的問題是，第一期在審查的時候是亂審的嗎？他有租屋的事實，可是你給他補貼之後，又反過頭來討回去，這是不是就證明你第一期在審查的時候是亂審查的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會照內政部在處理這個的時候……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，不要讓人家有這是一個有選擇性的錯覺，是不是因為在選舉前？因為這個很多會在社群平台上到處傳，是不是因為在選舉前就隨便審？先讓它過，選完後再按步就班來審，對不對？我不管你們的想法是怎麼樣、你們的做法是怎麼樣，如果有漏洞就趕快填補。我們要符合公平的機制，讓這些申請租屋優惠的租屋族能夠有一個好的依據；至於房東願不願意提供，或者是他有沒有房屋稅籍，應該是要求房東去補這個房屋稅，而不是要房客去返還他的補貼嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的想法很好，我們會告訴內政部。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，好，審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe伍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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漲幅有降低的現象通膨齁什麼都在漲萬物期漲電費也要漲齁那接下來水費我想也要漲了都在漲那所以這個整體的物價指數肯定是下不來今年1、2月"},{"start":127.115,"end":135.445,"text":"議員診所掛號費也漲了那個診所漲了10%醫院漲1.49%那這些其實再加上外食費房租什麼外食費漲0.48%那這些東西不會有再調降的可能對不對可不可以這麼講不會調降的"},{"start":144.253,"end":145.154,"text":"每年調高基本薪資"},{"start":171.145,"end":190.158,"text":"這個調高資本薪資是不是也是物價上漲的一個元兇一個幫助犯因為調高薪資所以物價也跟著漲那個兩個的因果關係很難講因為物價漲了啊薪資如果不漲也好像不會很頭疼可是跟得上嗎就是我們漲是美化數字就對不對啊你起一次他起比你快啊"},{"start":192.38,"end":208.53,"text":"對,可是除非他漲得很高因為薪水的漲幅一般可能是在後面所以我們會越來越窮目前的情況是這樣子就越來越窮尤其我們的經常性薪資平均4549645496元實時經常性薪資是41334那這個部分"},{"start":215.974,"end":241.574,"text":"裡面其實那個調整後的數字就是說實質經常性的薪資又降低了0.5%是連續3年來的負數那總實質總薪資也減少了1.04%是7年來的負成長首度的負成長所以這就是告訴我們是確實是越來越窮那加薪的速度遠遠跟不上"},{"start":242.395,"end":268.577,"text":"那通膨現在萬物起漲現在說光是外食族現在要買一個100塊以下的便當買得到嗎應該買不到啦不過就像雞腿便當大概120塊啦排骨便當中南部有大概大概80塊那租金啊如果租房呢現在1萬塊以下的房屋還有嗎就房屋啦我們說的租屋啦欸那個可能要分租啊分租"},{"start":270.244,"end":297.437,"text":"我會講我們現在很多戲稱說臺北市要租6千塊7千塊8千塊房屋那個叫做鬼屋啦叫做鬼屋啦所以你就知道說多恐怖啦那現在我們的實質經常性薪資都是負數那大家都在討論這樣子的情況那剛剛我們前面幾位委員也都有把這個都問到這些那通膨跟薪資水平之間的面臨的挑戰到底我們只是"},{"start":298.798,"end":302.702,"text":"阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗"},{"start":319.659,"end":341.816,"text":"在這個會場裡面的我們的很多工作人員那薪水有沒有這個薪水有沒有4萬多5萬多那個我們所謂的那個薪資我跟各位報告一下是包括各項那個所謂的福利性所得就是他有老闆所負擔的勞退的費用通通有在裡面"},{"start":342.756,"end":368.851,"text":"所以我說就是說其實很多基層的不管是我們的立法院的工作同仁還是很多基層的工人都一樣他們的薪水都是在這個我們剛剛公布的這個基層線以下平均數以下所以是非常非常辛苦的所以我想要請主計長就是說我們到底要怎麼樣才能夠解決這種低薪高通膨的問題"},{"start":371.939,"end":386.725,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下因為在經濟學上薪水就等於說他對這個企業或對這個單位的貢獻有多少或他產出出來價值有多少所以他應該要他接受就是說有一個良好的"},{"start":387.506,"end":401.544,"text":"閃出所以他才有那個高價值的東西所以他薪水才才才必要那另外一個如果沒有辦法的話就是社會福利政策就叫基本工資提升啊或者是政府給補助啊"},{"start":402.245,"end":409.45,"text":"那補貼你能提舉意嗎?怎麼樣來補貼?讓民眾覺得好過?覺得說不會越來越窮?年輕人他們的育兒津貼一個人是一個補助五千、兩個就一萬或者是對那些租屋族我們有一個那個這些各項可能地方政府也都在做啦生意補貼啊然後這個"},{"start":428.004,"end":439.354,"text":"生意部這地方政府都把新的那個蓋,我們是每個月啦每個月五千啦,每個月五千啊不是啦,我想我們在這邊討論這些問題是要找出什麼樣解決這個薪資的問題跟這些物價上漲的問題但是我發覺我們在"},{"start":452.785,"end":477.352,"text":"談論這些不管是怎麼樣提高基本薪資都是在美化數字永遠跟不上所以政府要怎麼樣去調控這些通膨有沒有做一個有效的意識通膨這個才是重點有時候市場制度我們必須尊重但是我們是不恰當的一個市場物價上漲公平會他就要看看有沒有聯絡壟斷"},{"start":480.654,"end":500.166,"text":"法務部就看他們有沒有囤積居期好主計長我們要考慮到真實的數字不是美化過後的數字好不好我們的統計數字都是真實的我現在百姓的生活這個生活痛苦指數不斷的升高阿非常非常的高阿對不對好不好應該加油好不好謝謝請審計長謝謝請審計長"},{"start":510.759,"end":510.779,"text":"陳鴻沃"},{"start":513.823,"end":541.652,"text":"委員好 市長好到今年二月底受理這個申辦我們有一個300億租金補貼計畫那受理的大概61萬戶合定的建樹43萬戶那有超過三成包括30%的人拿不到這個補貼那我本期認為說這個300億的補貼政策是好的但是實際上拿到的卻不到七成"},{"start":542.608,"end":567.483,"text":"那你可不可以告訴我為什麼這個因為有一些大家因為租嘛有些隱瞞所以造成有一些希望能夠避稅所以造成一些問題我直接問重點時間的問題我在這個社群平台上面看到就是說無房屋稅籍無房屋稅籍"},{"start":568.536,"end":596.323,"text":"有些這個就是說他申請的時候第一期通過了第一期通過補貼但是第二期卻被討回因為他沒有房屋稅集沒有稅單那應該是要去要求房東要補稅房屋稅單應該要補這個房屋稅嘛結果不是他等到來是把這個處課我們說的房客申請的申請補貼的房客取消他的補貼要他歸還"},{"start":597.463,"end":613.404,"text":"啊這樣子對嗎?這樣不對嘛對不對你們規定說在申請補貸的時候不需要智慧房東嘛也不需要房東同意嘛那當然他也拿不到他也不知道有沒有房屋稅籍啊他就是因為有需要"},{"start":614.165,"end":632.727,"text":"所以他才也符合規定所以他才申請這個租屋補貼可是你補貼他之後又或者他在申請過程當中你就直接告訴他說你不符規定那第一期為什麼第一期會符合規定補貼他那之後第二期還要叫他返還是"},{"start":633.905,"end":655.106,"text":"我要問一問你說第一期在審查的時候是亂審嗎?還是說他有租屋的事實啊可是你補貼報他之後反正回來又把它拖回來然後可是不是證明你第一期在審查的時候是亂審查?這個我們會照內政部在處理這個的時候不要讓人家有那個錯覺說是一個選擇性的因為"},{"start":659.033,"end":675.48,"text":"是不是因為選舉前就是在社群平台上面到處在傳是不是因為選舉前就是隨便審啊 太過分了啊 選了啊 再叫其他人來 對不對 這我不管你們的想法是怎麼樣你們的做法是怎麼樣 如果有漏洞我們趕快把它填補"},{"start":676.4,"end":701.512,"text":"那我們要符合公平機制讓我們申請這個租屋優惠的這一些房客就是我們這些租屋主能夠有一個好的依據那房東願不願意提供或者說他有沒有房屋稅籍應該是要求房東去補這個房屋稅而不是要房客去去去要求返還他的補貼嗎對不對好不好 委員的想法很好我們會告示內政部OK好謝謝沈議長謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":707.799,"end":707.959,"text":"接受質詢請吳立華吳委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}