{"error":false,"id":["149807"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149807,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149807","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T11:59:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T12:10:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903eca8969ac4cd2203b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6e54a6599b840bfc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:59:30 - 12:10:58","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1259,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時59分）主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。主計長，你今天上午在受訪還有答詢委員時，你提到了一些，我還以為你現在就要走了、馬上就要走了……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有就要走了。"],["王委員世堅：你是說你不會那麼丟……我後來看了逐字稿才發現，喔，不是！你是說你不會那麼丟臉，主動表態留任？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員世堅：那我現在就跟你講，你也不能丟臉，說走就走，不是這樣嗎？你要為國珍重啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：說走是我的決定，人家要不要留任是人家的，我不必去……"],["王委員世堅：對，要負責任到最後1分鐘，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，5月19號晚上12點。"],["王委員世堅：關於昨天你公布的一些數字，我們現在不論是在薪資所得的差距、收入的差距或者經濟成長方面、通貨膨脹方面確實有一些狀況，我以為你公布這些糟糕的狀況，是不是就要趕快跑掉，你還是要留下來負責任，至少這兩個月是「做一天和尚，敲一天鐘」。我請教你一下，在你可以掌管的2兆8,000億這麼多的預算裡面，其實你就是國家的帳房，不是嗎？事實上，既然你是國家的帳房，你也預見到，從你們調查到的一些數字顯示，我們可能會碰到一些通貨膨脹、一些經濟成長方面碰到的問題，那你有沒有對各部會提出警語？你怎麼可以任由他們愛編多少就編多少？不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，沒有。跟委員報告一下，我們這些報告，都是在發表之前就有通知各部會說會這個樣子，請各部會要採行……"],["王委員世堅：發表報告之前就有通知？"],["朱主計長澤民：就有說我們……"],["王委員世堅：在這個報告裡面是沒有。你把你有通知哪幾次的內容彙整給我，好不好？你有沒有告知各部會？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們都公布在網站上，各部會應該瞭解，我們在要發布之前，都有跟總統、副總統、院長、副院長簡單的說明。"],["王委員世堅：2月份物價指數疾速上升，漲到3.08%，這已經達到通貨膨脹的標準，你很清楚嘛，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為今年的過年是在2月，去年過年是在1月，所以去年2月的基數比較低。因為我們的物價都是跟去年同一個月份比較，而去年的基數比較低，漲幅就會比較大。"],["王委員世堅：這個部分你說明得很清楚，我知道。但是這確實是一個很大的警訊，不是嗎？更何況2月是過年沒錯，可是再來4月是最傷腦筋的部分，2月都這樣，只是因為過年，物價就這樣，導致通貨膨脹，那每年過年都會通貨膨脹囉？再來4月電價要大幅上漲的話……"],["朱主計長澤民：如果跟上一年過年的月份也一樣，就不會有3.08%的現象。"],["王委員世堅：並不是碰到一個年節物價就會漲成這個樣子，那是季節性的，現在看到的不一樣，我們有潛在的通貨膨脹危機。我相信你很清楚，我就跟你講，4月份電價要上漲，但是電價又不得不上漲，那怎麼辦？主計長，這個部分要多花點心思。4月還在你任期內嗎？不是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我有提出一些數據分析給相關部會。我必須跟委員報告一下，主計總處只是把數字呈現出來，我不能因為這個數字去說你們該怎麼做，因為政策是由各部會來決定。"],["王委員世堅：這樣子啊？依這個數字發出這個警語，我看最不聽話的是數發部吧？都已經有這麼多的狀況，他還用那麼高的租金去租那麼豪華的大樓，連租金、裝潢花了三億六，針對這個東西，你何止要發出警語，你應該當面跟他說這是不對的，要反對他編列才對，不是這樣嗎？可是你不但讓他列上去，還通過。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，他們有請國有財產署提供，但是國有財產署也都提列不出來，就是沒有辦法在臺北找到適當的位置……"],["王委員世堅：提列不出來？提列不出那麼好的可以供他們去享用就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為在臺北市中心要找出適當的空間並不容易。"],["王委員世堅：我很感謝你把很多資料詳實統計。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：比方說，實質總薪資這個部分，你有實質去考量物價通膨的部分，這部分確實是負成長，而且現在上班族遇到的最傷腦筋的問題就是工時越來越長，所得薪資越來越低，而且貧富差距也是創下這十年來的最高。根據你的數字，前20%和後20%差了6.15倍，這些都是狀況，都是問題，你有預見到是很好。你也提到我們的GDP花在員工薪資的部分已經下降到43.3%，這些部分你提供的數字都很詳盡，但是相對應的，我相信，以你這四十年來的公職生涯，你應該有很多好的具體看法，至少對各部會發出警語，至少約束他們經常性預算的增加，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我的公職生涯在主計總處的話，到5月19日才有8年，以前我在健保局服務，更早以前我是在學校教書，並沒有在公家機關很久。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：那你在健保局的時間也不算公職生涯就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我那個時候是借調。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：那不算公職嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。是借調。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好。你學有專精，以你這八年來對政府的瞭解，你應該提出很多警語與很多建言，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我們都有一些資料，我都如實表達，沒有去美化這個數字，而我在任這幾年，就是要讓每一個首長花錢要合法化，且要經過大院同意。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：時間暫停。主計長請回。我再用兩分鐘問一下審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：審計長，改善所得分配其實是刻不容緩，我知道政府這八年來長時期都在做，經濟部也有提出他們的幾項政策，我就是想讓你簡短答復，以你的觀察，你的監督，你認為經濟部過去針對改善所得分配所提出的政策成效如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：從主計總處的統計來看，貧富差距是擴大的，主要就是因為現在科技的問題，有的收入很高，有的收入很低，大部分都很低，有這樣的情形，就是青年有低薪的問題，剛剛委員也顯示出來實質薪資有下降，所以開始產生貧富不均，針對這個部分，我們審計部在113年會通盤瞭解，包括委員所提的經濟的部分，委員也有指出，薪資的貢獻都降下來了，所以我們會來努力。"],["王委員世堅：審計部對公務員、對各部會、對公家機關，有實質的監督及考核，立委看到預算的時候，沒有辦法看到每一個層面，比方我們只能監督財政部、金管會這些，想監督其他部會會變成力有未逮，但是審計部握有審計權，也可以透過監察院糾正，有這樣子的權利，所以我相信你們講話各部會更能夠聽進去，更信得過你。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是的。"],["王委員世堅：立法院因為職掌的關係，對預算的審核，檢討他們的政策成效如何，我們的檢討力可能不如你們，所以這一點我必須特別要求你，也算是拜託你們，應該要做這些政策，實質去審查，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員的鼓勵，我們會來努力。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接著請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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投表報告之前就有通知就有說說 我們在這一份報告裡面是沒有通知 你把你有通知的你通知哪幾次你會整給我好不好你有沒有告知各部會 對 各部我們都公布在網站上各部會應該了解我們都有跟在要發布之前我們有跟總統副總統院長"},{"start":173.445,"end":173.886,"text":"因為去今年的過年是在二月"},{"start":194.445,"end":213,"text":"所以去年的過年是在一月所以說去年的二月的基數比較低因為我們的物價都是跟上個月去年的同一個月份比較所以去年的基數比較低所以就會比較高這部分你說明得很清楚我知道啦但是這確實是個大的警訊不是嗎"},{"start":215.141,"end":241.038,"text":"更何況二月是過年沒錯可是再來四月是最傷腦筋的部分二月都這樣只是因為一個過年物價就這樣導致通貨膨脹那每年過年都會通貨膨脹囉再來四月電價要大幅上漲的話如果跟上一年的過年的月份也是一樣的話就不會說是有3.08的現象"},{"start":244.653,"end":268.154,"text":"那個並不是說碰到個年節那物價就會漲成這個樣子啊那是季節性的現在看到的欸不一樣現在看到的我們有潛在的通貨膨脹的危機我相信你很清楚我就跟你講四月份電價要上漲但是電價又不得不上漲那怎麼辦我想"},{"start":269.855,"end":299.075,"text":"主計總這一個部分你要多花點心思啦4月還在你任期內嘛不是嗎?對 我有提出一些數據分析給那個相關的部會我必須跟委員報告一下我主計總處只是把數字呈現出來我不能因為這個數字去說你們該怎麼做因為政策是由各部會來決定這樣子啊 這個數字發出這個警語雖然不聽話我看數法不吧"},{"start":300.715,"end":315.661,"text":"都已經有這麼多的狀況他還在那邊用那麼高的租金去租那麼豪華的大樓那總共總花了連租金連莊王花了3億6這個東西你何止僅餘你應該當面跟他講說你這是不對的"},{"start":325.543,"end":350.024,"text":"要反對他編列才對,不是這樣嗎?可是我發文下他們有請國有財產署提供一些但是國有財產署也都提列不出來就是沒有辦法找到提列不出那麼好的適當的位置供他們去享用就對了因為在台北市中心要找出適當的空間並不可能我很感謝你把很多"},{"start":351.092,"end":365.957,"text":"指標你確實是很詳實技術啦。比如說實質的總薪資這個部分你有加入實質有去考量這個物價通膨的部分那這個是確實是負成長而且這個"},{"start":368.338,"end":397.137,"text":"現在我們上班族遇到這三老金的問題我們的工時越來越長那麼所得薪資越來越低而且貧富差距也是創下這10年來的最高根據你的數字前20後20差了6.15倍那這些都是狀況都是問題你有預見到是很好那你也提到那個我們有高達"},{"start":397.978,"end":414.48,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":414.58,"end":436.122,"text":"但是相對應的我相信以你這40年來的公職生涯你應該有很多好的具體的看法至少對各部會發出警語至少約束他們經常性預算的增加不是這樣嗎跟著我的公職生涯在就"},{"start":436.69,"end":454.803,"text":"就在主計總處來的話到5月19號才8年了那以前在健保局服務以前我是在學校教並沒有在公家機關很久謝謝那你在健保局的也不算公職生涯就對了對我那個時候是借調謝謝"},{"start":456.707,"end":482.726,"text":"那不算工資嗎?建保局?對,是借調,謝謝。好,那至少你這八年以你學友專精你這八年來你對我們市政府的瞭解那你應該提出很多警語、很多建言,不是這樣?對,我們都有一些資料而且我都如實的表達沒有去美化這個數字而且我的認定"},{"start":483.722,"end":494.693,"text":"在這幾年我就是要讓首長每一個首長他們花錢要合法化而且要經過大院同意謝謝好時間暫停那主計長你請回我在兩分鐘問一下我們的審計長委員好"},{"start":509.492,"end":530.145,"text":"市長對於改善所得分配這其實是刻不容緩我知道政府這8年來長時期都在做經濟部也有提出他們的幾項政策那我就是想讓你簡短的答覆說你認為啦以你的觀察你的監督你認為經濟部過去關於"},{"start":536.018,"end":542.241,"text":"要這個改善所得分配他們提出的這些政策你認為成效如何?"},{"start":543.581,"end":567.978,"text":"因為從主計總處的統計裡面他是擴大的啊再主要就是因為這些現在的因為科技上的一個問題啊有的很高啊有的很低啊大部分都很低啊有這樣的一個情形就是今年有青年有低薪的問題啊這個剛剛委員也顯示出來實足薪資也下降啊所以這個等個"},{"start":569.159,"end":582.529,"text":"頻率就開始產生不均 這個部分我們審計部113年會通盤近期瞭解包括委員所提的經濟部的部分我們因為"},{"start":583.592,"end":600.555,"text":"議員．"},{"start":601.556,"end":622.754,"text":"那個公務員對我們各部會我們公家機關你特別有這個這樣子的實質的監督的考核我們立委在看到預算的時候沒辦法看到每一個層面那麼多我們比方說我們在這個我們只能監督財政部金管會這些"},{"start":624.136,"end":633.25,"text":"其他部位也會變成這個力有畏膽但是審計部你握有這個審計權你也可以"},{"start":634.858,"end":661.585,"text":"透過檢察院有糾舉有糾正這樣子的權利所以我相信你們講話各部會更能夠聽進去啦國家給你信到就對了我們立法院這個我們的執掌關係那我們這樣子對預算的審核對他們政策成效的如何我們檢討率可能不如你們"},{"start":662.285,"end":676.41,"text":"所以這一點我必須要特別要求你也算是拜託你們應該要對這一些政策實質下去做審查好不好好謝謝委員的鼓勵我們會來努力謝謝好謝謝來謝謝謝謝王委員喔接著我們請謝一鳳委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}