{"error":false,"id":["149820"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149820,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149820","日期":"2024-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-13T12:25:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-13T12:38:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903588f12c00bc2fcb614b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a64d80454cee631a6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:25:51 - 12:38:46","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1091,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時25分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長要不要先吃便當？"],["許部長銘春：不用。委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。本席今天要來跟部長討論的就是缺工問題，還有中高齡及高齡者的就業促進。中高齡及高齡者就業促進法在你的任內推動完成，我就簡單講幾個背景資料，然後我們來做一個檢視。人力銀行相關的資料說臺灣的住宿、餐飲、零售、電子資訊軟體、半導體以及一般製造業，陷入嚴重的缺工狀態。在你們的報告裡面說，這波缺工潮起因於三年前的疫情，導致各行各業人力流失，疫情結束後，民眾消費力回復；但產業界人力流失的缺口卻無法及時補充，導致缺工情況發生。這是你們的報告，講到這邊，你認可嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：缺工潮是因為這三年的疫情所造成的主因嗎？還是這三年之後才有這個缺工潮？是因為疫情的關係嗎？"],["許部長銘春：包括少子化的問題，也使得勞動力缺口不斷的擴大；但是疫情之後，有一些產業缺工一直補不足，尤其像餐飲服務業，我們是特別針對這部分來做說明。"],["劉委員建國：因素應該滿多的，但若單純寫這樣，我是覺得可能……"],["許部長銘春：這個不夠周全。"],["劉委員建國：是貴部的了解，還是？好，我們前面的就不討論，我們談後面的。你們評估之後，部長認為這個缺工潮會多久？這樣的大量缺工，以後會不會成為台灣社會的常態？"],["許部長銘春：這個會更嚴峻，因為少子化以後，我覺得整個勞動力人口其實會一直降低的。"],["劉委員建國：對，你們部裡面要怎麼做這個因應？"],["許部長銘春：我們要開發一些勞動力，包括青年的部分、婦女再就業，還有中高齡、高齡者，我們是比較想把他們定義成壯世代，希望他們續留職場或重返職場；也希望雇主能夠善用這些壯世代的勞動力，不要有年齡歧視的問題。"],["劉委員建國：壯世代的勞動力？現在對壯世代的勞動力，我覺得政府好像完全沒有辦法去掌控，而且引導的力道也非常薄弱。"],["許部長銘春：我們其實一直在推計畫，像我們也有發覺到55歲以上的勞參率，比起韓日大概低了20%，所以我們現在也在推一個壯世代的三年計畫，希望能夠在這三年內多增加30萬名55歲以上的壯世代進入職場，來提高勞參率。"],["劉委員建國：你現在把55歲以上定位為壯世代，然後你預計要多久可以讓這30萬進到職場？"],["許部長銘春：三年。"],["劉委員建國：三年內，從2024年開始起算？"],["許部長銘春：從去年5月開始，我們的那個計畫是去年5月開始。"],["劉委員建國：到現在也將近一年了，剩下一、兩個月就到一年了。你所講的這個壯士代，到目前為止，實際上進入到職場，就30萬的占比是多少？"],["許部長銘春：中高齡大概19萬。"],["劉委員建國：已經進入19萬？效益不錯啊！一個三年的規劃，不到一年，就可以達到60%，19除以30，有6成！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我要修正一下……"],["劉委員建國：這個要給你大大的獎勵……"],["許部長銘春：19萬是中高齡以上，但是55歲的部分，我要再請他們再將數據分析一下。"],["劉委員建國：你現在是講中高齡，中高齡就是從45歲到64歲，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。所以這個要再算啦！剛剛的數字不對，我看了一下，那不是壯世代55歲……"],["劉委員建國：如果照這樣的力道，就不需要再引進移工，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們的移工是針對本國人不願意從事的產業，我們現在的壯世代當然是希望……"],["劉委員建國：不是，不是。部長，我想那些背景資料你都比我清楚；但是國發會這邊也特別提到，2033年臺灣整體的勞動力重心將從現在的40到49歲，轉移到50到59歲，呼應你剛才的講法嘛！也就是說，臺灣在十年內整個勞動力的市場將產生天翻地覆的大變動，所以國發會主管人力事務處曾公開表示，人口紅利減少的速度比預期快。坦白講，這句話我很難接受，政府的預期怎麼會這麼不精準！這是其一。","其二，國發會講政府預計要在2030年前引進40萬外來的人口就業，才能解除警報。所以我才會說，面對這樣的事情，如果國發會也對外做這樣的表達，那麼我們的因應之道，在勞動部的核心、主要政策是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，剛剛提到國發所謂的2030年40萬外來就業人口是中階以上的，包括白領、灰領，所謂灰領就是僑外生，就是在這八年內希望引進40萬。至於勞動部的部分，就是中階技術人力，我們就是把現在臺灣的藍領──具有技術的這些低階勞工，薪資達一定的門檻，希望將他轉成中階技術人力，來填補我們現在中階人力的不足。這個計畫是這樣子……"],["劉委員建國：我先說比較小的範圍，因為特別提到了中高齡及高齡者的就業，促進法也在部長任內推動完成。你看一個數據，勞發署說臺灣中高齡就業人口60歲到64歲都還有39.6%，但是65歲以上的勞參率就直接掉到9.6%，如果對比其他國家是19%到37%，他們的數據明顯偏高，這個你們認可嘛！勞動部今天在報告中也闡述中高齡就45歲到64歲的勞參率有逐步在提升，就如你剛才所講的；但我剛剛也特別提到國發會講的，不到10年時間，我們的勞動力重心將從40歲到49歲轉移到50到59歲，我如果要檢視部長在推動中高齡及高齡者的就業政策有成效，究竟是透過法律的制定，然後推動整個執行面已經有成效？還是整體的勞動力重心已經朝向中高齡的區塊去做挪移？到底是哪一個？我要跟你討論的是本質問題！"],["許部長銘春：都會有。"],["劉委員建國：都會有？"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，未來的勞動力恐怕還是會往中高齡這邊靠，因為出生少。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得部長不要誤判，一般人要講三次，我就講不要誤判N次。如果中高齡的就業政策推得好，65歲以上的長輩現在應該會是半退休的狀況，持續在職場上服務；但是目前在臺灣65歲退休之後，僅有9.6%還在職場服務。所以我要跟部長討論的是，你認為跟職場仍然普遍要求勞工必須要有完整的勞動工時有沒有關係？"],["許部長銘春：完整的勞動工時？"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！跟職場上普遍認為勞工還是要有完整的勞動工時有沒有關係？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得針對不同的這些世代，應該有不同的勞動工時……"],["劉委員建國：我現在針對高齡者跟中高齡者……"],["許部長銘春：高齡者可能要有彈性的工時。"],["劉委員建國：你覺得我們現在這樣的就業環境對高齡者有達到友善？有達到彈性？"],["許部長銘春：我們在這部分還有很大的努力空間。"],["劉委員建國：還有很大的努力空間嘛！部長也回答問題了。現在要讓65歲的這些高齡者，因為本身在體力上就有些障礙，然後他還要克服很多問題，除此之外，高齡者還要有完整的8個小時工作時間，這種退休之後的就業環境既不友善，也不健康，所以他的勞參率當然就很低。我想從這部分跟部長來做一個討論。","職安署有一個統計，臺灣的外送人員從2019年的4萬5千人增加到2022年的14萬5千人，等於三年成長了300%；而人力銀行更發現，外送員大都來自製造業的基層跟餐飲業，這表示有一個板塊正很快速的在轉移，對不對？另外，WTW2023組織與人才關鍵報告中亦指出，Z世代人才最關鍵的因素不再是薪水，而是職涯的發展機會，他們相當在意公司是否提供彈性工時和員工福利，以及能否從工作內容找到這個使命感。這個是你們的資料。","還有，資策會在去年7至9月實行彈性工時的實驗，一共有105位同仁參加，參加的員工一個月內要滿足168的總工時，但不拘束員工的上下班時間和工作地點，實驗的結果證實工作的產出跟表現並沒有變得不好，多數員工也表示幸福感在增加，不僅年輕世代在意公司是否有提供彈性工時，我想對中高齡及高齡者的就業環境，也應該要來做這個因應才對，我很誠懇的提醒部長這件事情。你們自己也有結合相關部會在偏鄉推動婦女再就業計畫，讓婦女兼顧家庭，勞動部還有提供雇主工時調整獎勵──針對雇主提供有照顧家庭需求的婦女比較彈性工時調整，其中就舉出這個系統櫃供應商的成功案例；然後旅宿業者也聘僱中高齡者，提出相對的彈性工時、多班式彈性工時的班表。這些你們都在做，但好像那個量能、那個速度有些緩不濟急，沒有辦法追過人口老化，沒有辦法讓想要給中高齡者從事就業的這個環境裡面，來提高他們的意願，我覺得這個部分仍有很大的討論空間。"],["許部長銘春：對，我是覺得雇主可能觀念的改變非常重要，因為面對勞動力的短缺，大家對於這個勞動力的來源，要更能夠接受這些壯世代或者二度就業婦女……"],["劉委員建國：所以剛剛林委員講的一些話，坦白講我也是心有戚戚焉，政府應該扮演更強大的一個力道。部長記得這個法律什麼時候通過的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：2019吧！"],["劉委員建國：108年，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：但是我們上路好像2020……"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦，是108啦！應該是108公告的。"],["許部長銘春：108公告，109才上路，因為疫情……"],["劉委員建國：OK，109、110、111、112、113，今年是第五年，可以大大的來討論，大大的來檢討，快速來盤整，讓我們高齡者的勞參率可以提高；而這個板塊的移動到底是因為你們的政策推動的很好，很有力道？還是因為人口的問題、人口紅利的問題，搞到翻天覆地的一個大改變？我想政府尤其勞動部應該特別來注意這個事情。一個禮拜內，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員，接下來請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.168468750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":16.230968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職長薩爾普遍認為勞動還是要一個完整的勞動工時有沒有關係?"},{"start":501.01,"end":515.457,"text":"這個我是覺得針對不同的好像這些世代應該有可能不同的勞動工時。 我現在針對高齡者跟高齡者。 高齡者他可能要有彈性的工時。 對嘛。 你覺得你覺得現在的這樣的我們的這些環境對高齡者"},{"start":516.377,"end":536.799,"text":"有達到友善有達到彈性這部分還要在很大的努力空間部長有回答問題了因為我覺得現在齁你看要讓65歲的這些高齡者因為體育上本身就有一些障礙了嘛對不對齁然後他還要課很多問題除此之外讓高齡者要有一個完整的8個工作"},{"start":537.8,"end":550.07,"text":"的這個時間來從事他的退休之後的就業的一個環境這既不友善也不健康所以他的勞參率當然就很低我是要從這部分跟部長來做一個討論那你看喔"},{"start":553.516,"end":556.137,"text":"五千人等於三年成長百分之三百然後人力營養更發現外送人大多數來自這個製造業的基層跟餐飲業這個是一個板塊的很大很大的很快的速度在"},{"start":576.385,"end":599.672,"text":"在做一個轉移嘛對不對這是這是你們的資料然後這個WTW2023的組織跟人才的關鍵報告中指出歷史代齁人才最關鍵的因素他不再是薪水而是職矮的發展機會他們相當在意公司是我提供彈性工時及和員工福利以及這個成功做內容找到這個使命感"},{"start":601.2,"end":622.391,"text":"這個是你們的資料支撐會在去年7到9月實行彈性工時的實驗一共有105位的同仁參加參加的員工一個月內要滿足168的總工時但不拘束員工的上下班時間和工作定點實驗的結果證實工作的產出跟表現並沒有變得不好"},{"start":623.251,"end":625.993,"text":"對中高齡及高齡者的就業環境應該要有所來做這個因應才對嘛我是要很"},{"start":641.601,"end":664.907,"text":"很誠懇的提醒部長這事情齁那你們自己也有結合相關部會嘛齁在偏鄉推動這個婦女再就業計畫然後什麼婦女什麼兼顧家庭勞動部提供僱主公使調整獎勵還有公使調整獎勵嘛齁然後針對僱主提供有照顧家庭需求的婦女比較彈性公使調整其中就有舉出這個系統貴供應商的成功案例"},{"start":665.779,"end":694.711,"text":"然後李肅岳哲也併顧鍾高齡也提出了相對的這個彈性的工時多半是這個彈性工時的班表這個你們又有在做啊但是好像那個量能好像那個速度緩不濟急沒有辦法追過人口老化沒有辦法追過這些想要在給高齡者要從事這個就業的環境裡面提高他們的意願這個我覺得很大大的討論空間"},{"start":696.124,"end":721.476,"text":"我是覺得雇主可能觀念的改變非常重要因為面對這個勞動力的短缺大家可能對於這個勞動力的來源要更能夠接受這些壯世代或者二度就業婦女這些所以剛剛您委員講的一些話坦白講我心裡有戚戚焉政府應該扮演更強大的這樣的一個力道不然我們這個法律法律你部長記得什麼時候通過的嗎"},{"start":725.818,"end":748.355,"text":"201919吧20191080嘛對不對但是我們上路好像2020齁沒有啊108啦應該是108公告的啦108公告啊109才上路因為疫情OK嘛09 110 11 12 13第5年可以大大來討論了嘛當然要檢討了嘛快速來盤整嘛好不好那我們這個高齡者的勞動率可以提高嘛那這個板塊移動到底是因為你們的政策"},{"start":748.895,"end":749.235,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}