{"error":false,"id":["149836"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149836,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149836","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T09:27:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T09:38:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313540ba9e51b104253a9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a644fa94be23543b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:27:42 - 09:38:34","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":145,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時27分）主席，麻煩請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁早。我在很多資料上面看到總體經濟學的學者有這樣的講法，說一個國家CPI應該要溫和適度的上漲，不能太低，甚至更不能Minus，因為Minus很可能就引發通縮。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我直接問你那個標準，因為幾個學者的標準是抓CPI 2%，他們認為2%是比較OK的狀況，低於1%就很不妙，高於3%也很不妙，不知道這個講法你贊不贊成？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講得沒有錯，不過我稍微再補充一下，就先進國家來講，它是這樣子沒有錯！但是對開發中國家來講的話，開發中國家因為它的經濟成長都一直在往前，所以它的通膨率基本上都會比較高，所以很多開發中國家的通膨率，有的3%到6%、3%到7%，這個就是它的range，也就是說各個國家的發展程度不一樣，所以它的range就會不一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你認為臺灣應該在哪個range是比較合理？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員剛剛所講的就沒有錯啦！就是說……"],["吳委員秉叡：1%到3%之間是比較合理。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們臺灣還是以2%做為目標。"],["吳委員秉叡：2%做為基準，最好不要距離2%太遠。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不應該把2%叫做通膨警戒線。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。只是說我們要注意它……"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要叫警戒線，那應該是3%，是不是？如果依照剛剛這個討論的話。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。委員，我再補充一下，通膨也不是說碰到2%就不行，不是！而是就像委員說的，碰到3%沒關係，但是中長期的目標都一定要讓它回復到2%左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，其實我們的鄰國──日本就是很好的例子，長期的CPI都低，但是他們失落了30年。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：到了後面這幾年，反而是日本政府想辦法要讓CPI能夠接近2%，所以日本政府為了這個也付出相當的代價。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在什麼時空、談論什麼議題，有時候也還是要有比較長遠的眼光。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：最近有一個議題很夯，我想要請教你。去年第10屆本委員會有委員要提財富主權基金，現在聽說他們同黨的在這個會期又要再捲土重來，剛剛你的報告裡面有講，你覺得有三個東西，我有看了。我想跟你補充一下，別的國家對於主權基金的設置主要不是退休金，不然就是他們國家的天然資源，比方有挖到天然氣、石油……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：由國家在掌控這些財富，所以去弄主權基金。不過我要跟你說一點點我的看法，如果臺灣設主權基金，現在行政院有請國發會在研究，賺錢大家都會很高興，賺的不夠還會罵你，因為臺灣人沒有辦法接受賠錢。如果賠錢他就可以跟你扣帽子說，又在貪贓枉法了、又怎麼樣的。我要問你，就以新加坡的淡馬錫來講，每一年都大賺錢嗎？還是也有虧錢的時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：它也會虧錢。"],["吳委員秉叡：虧錢的時候新加坡政府怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為新加坡整個政治結構跟臺灣不大一樣，所以基本上這個問題就比較容易淡化。因為它的政治結構跟我們不大一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，我來請教你一個問題，假設立法院硬塞了一個主權基金的法律，而行政院9月研擬的結果是不想設，結果立法院多數黨硬塞一個法令，這樣在政治上適合嗎？因為將來這個主權基金還是要行政機關來管理，總不可能立法委員訂了這個法，就由立法委員自己遴選人來管理，所以這就是憲法裡面為什麼會規定立法委員不得為增加預算支出的原因。同樣的概念，行政機關沒有要花這筆錢，立法機關不能硬塞錢給他花，那人家要如何執行？事實上，在落實執行的是行政機關。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我就是要請教你這個問題，如果在野的多數黨硬塞這樣的法令給你，你一再說不要設在央行，這個跟你們的基金都不合。他也不管就是硬塞給你，利用他是多數黨就硬塞給你，你要如何處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也沒辦法回答這個問題。但我還是再強調，全球主權基金的「主權」指的就是政府的錢，如果塞給中央銀行，而根據資產負債表，中央銀行資產的背後就是負債，那是負債，所以資產跟負債是平衡的，不是說這個資產……不像政府的錢。主權財富基金是政府的錢，硬塞在中央銀行法裡面是完全說不過去的。這個也就是為什麼全世界的中央銀行法裡面都沒有說來設主權基金的，沒有！"],["吳委員秉叡：這也是為什麼第10屆立委、也是在英明的主席主持開會的過程中，最後決定沒有去處理這個事情，就代表我們基本上有這樣的共識。行政機關不願意的東西，立法機關硬塞給他，基本上是違反剛剛講的憲法精神。當然這是類比，因為憲法條文沒有明白說不可以立法這樣做，它只說立法委員不可以為增加預算的提案，意思是行政機關沒有這個施政計畫、沒有要用這條錢、沒有由立法委員來發動硬要塞給行政機關，叫他非花這條錢不可的，不可以有這樣的概念。我是舉出一個是錢的、另一個是制度的。行政機關現在沒有要這個制度，你硬塞給他，他如何執行？他不甘不願也不可能好好執行，跟自己的制度扞格，他也不知道如何處理。我覺得這方面的聲音也要表達出來，讓社會大眾多一些考慮跟思考的空間。","再來就是你們現在也開始在研究數位貨幣政策，我個人對這個東西瞭解不是非常深，但是我有幾個概念要跟你討論。最早中國為什麼會趕快發行電子支付？大家都說什麼彎道超車、他很先進，其實不是，一開始原因是因為中國的假鈔太多，處理都處理不完。第二個就是中國共產黨要嚴格的控制錢可以在哪裡花，經過電子支付所有的交易軌跡，包括跟誰交易、在哪裡、做什麼，他全部都清清楚楚，毫無隱私可言。現在中國進一步要推數字人民幣，如果你反政府，你連一頓飯都沒得吃了，因為他從帳面把你的數字控制住，你的銀行帳戶就馬上被他鎖住了，你能花的錢就變零了。事實上，當他推到極致的時候，已經沒有貨幣了，只有數字。當你被他鎖住的時候，連一頓飯都吃不起。我認為這是共產主義一定要趕快推這個東西的最主要原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我也來稍微補充一下。事實上，最近我聽美國聯準會（Fed）主席鮑爾也在說，他們要推動CBDC要非常的小心，特別是對於隱私權的部分，必須要非常、非常的小心。這個就會涉及剛剛委員所講到的，現在中國大陸在推行，他就比較不care隱私權，跟民主國家對隱私權的重視是迥然不一樣的。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，我再跟你補充，其實中國現在也開始有反思的聲音出來了。當然中國集權立了一個什麼國安法，使得大家都不想去，可是其中一個是因為它都用數字支付，讓外國的旅客在中國使用非常不方便，進到中國如果沒有那個系統，如何把錢花出去都有困難，連中國的觀光旅遊業現在都吃到這個苦果。我的意思是你要推動這個東西、在研究，我不反對，但是要研究清楚，利弊得失都要考慮清楚。這個還有很長的一條路走，不要急。因為日本這麼多年來，現金還是他們國人最喜歡用的東西，好不好？以上建議，請你參考，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.40596875,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.41721875,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.22534375,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.32096875,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.80096875,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.31971875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.517843750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.838468750000004,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.534093750000004,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.15409375,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.76721875000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.70784375000001,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.268468750000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不是一開始原因是因為中國的假超太多處理都處理不完"},{"start":486.078,"end":504.935,"text":"第2個就是中國共產黨要嚴格的控制你錢可以在哪裡花所以你經過這個數字這個電子的支付你所有的交易軌跡跟誰交易在哪裡做什麼他全部都清清楚楚這個毫無這個毫無這個隱私可言"},{"start":506.525,"end":533.385,"text":"現在中國進一步要推他的數字人民幣我跟你說如果你違反政府你連一頓飯都沒得吃了因為我從頭上面把你的數字控制住你的銀行就馬上被他鎖住了你能花的錢就變零啊那你事實上已經沒有貨幣了他推到極致的時候是沒有貨幣的只有數字啊當他被你鎖住的時候當你把他鎖住的時候連一頓飯都吃不起"},{"start":534.697,"end":560.682,"text":"這是共產主義要的最重要一定要趕快推這個東西的我認為最主要的原因委員我也來稍微補充一下事實上最近我聽那個FED就是美國的那個聯準會的主席Power他也在講他說他們要推動這個CBDC他們要非常的小心特別是特別是"},{"start":561.522,"end":584.624,"text":"對於隱私權的這個部分他必須要非常非常小心那這個就會談到就是說剛剛委員所講到就是說現在中國中國大陸呢他現在在推行這個呢這個隱私權的這個呢他就比較不care那這個就跟民主國家的一個隱私權的著重的重視呢是迥然不一樣的"},{"start":586.469,"end":611.849,"text":"總裁我再跟你補充喔其實中國現在也有開始反思的聲音出來了因為中國現在去中國的人當然因為他集權他立了一個什麼國安法使得大家都不想去可是其中一個因為他都用數字支付讓外國的旅客在中國使用非常的不方便他進到中國他如果沒有那個系統他如何把他的錢花出去都有困難啊"},{"start":613.226,"end":639.099,"text":"所以連中國的觀光旅遊業都現在都吃到這個苦果所以我的意思是說你要推動這個東西你在研究我也不是反對但是要研究清楚利弊得失都要考慮清楚那這個還有很長的一條路走不要很急因為日本這麼多年來日本的這個現金還是他們國人最喜歡用的東西好不好以上建議謝謝請你參考謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":647.113,"end":648.865,"text":"接著請賴世保、賴委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}