{"error":false,"id":["149841"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149841,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149841","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T09:40:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T09:49:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135708f5d059f87170308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6db83578cf04ae42b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:40:12 - 09:49:35","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（9時40分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：召集人好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我想針對我們廢棄物的政策來跟部長討論，我看到前兩天部長有到外埔綠能生態園區去會勘。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：你是去看黑水虻還是……"],["薛部長富盛：不是，跟黃委員報告，事實上，去年11月17號，因為我知道外埔綠能生技園區是國內第一個利用生廚餘去做沼氣發電，把它變成能源化，我覺得這是一個非常好的案例，結果我去了之後瞭解情況，在沼氣發電方面，的確已經開始在發電，而且累計將近990萬度，非常好，可是它的問題是，它產生的沼渣、沼液都還要花很多錢運到外面去處理，我個人覺得這是不符合循環經濟的概念。因為我在上任之後曾經到包括宜蘭、臺南、彰化等地去看黑水虻的養殖，以及牠如何來處理有機廢棄物，我就想說這個idea非常好，所以當初就跟臺中市政府環保局建議他們一定要這樣做，不能把這些沼渣、沼液又送到外面去，每年要花好幾百萬，我個人覺得這個……"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想問一下，我們之前的廚餘，有的是用高速廚餘發酵廠來做去化廚餘，另外一種是到焚化爐直接焚燒，此外，目前有幾個地方是在養黑水虻來吃廚餘，在部長上任之後，關於廚餘如何去化，我不知道你的立場為何？現在是希望用養黑水虻的方式來去化廚餘，或者是用另外其他的方式？"],["薛部長富盛：我的概念是希望能夠達到零廢棄，事實上，廚餘現在還滿珍貴的，很多人都想要使用廚餘，但是使用的方法，我個人覺得有改善的空間，我們朝兩個方向，第一個是能源化，第二個是資源化，資源化當然現在已經有在做，譬如說，農委會他們有很多包括把農業資材去做堆肥、去做飼料，黑水虻是這些功能都可以，可以能源化也可以資源化，這是一個非常好的方法。目前來講，我們廚餘的處理量能不會有問題，事實上是都夠，只是很多單位他們所用的方法，我個人覺得沒有全面去考量，應該把循環經濟的概念納進來。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在要主推養黑水虻來去化廚餘？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們衡量的結果覺得黑水虻真的是非常好的一個循環經濟的案例，我們也看到很多成功的例子。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請問一下，目前養黑水虻其實還是少量，就是說養的還是少量，也不是全面性的，我想請教部長，未來你們要怎麼去推動？"],["薛部長富盛：基本上，要業界馬上改變它以往的習慣，事實上有時候有一些挑戰，所以我們現在是過渡，譬如說以剛剛黃委員講到的外埔那個例子來看，我們也是補助他們去做一個示範的場域，希望這個可以成功，他把這個廚餘變成能源、變成資源，將來國內的各縣市可以以臺中外埔的這個案例來推廣。事實上，現在包括新北，包括彰化……"],["黃委員秀芳：彰化田中。"],["薛部長富盛：對，也都有很成功的案例。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是他們都是少量啦！"],["薛部長富盛：對，量都還是很少。這個當然要考量到從經濟的角度來看，就是你產生的這些不管是肥料或者飼料，它的去化是不是能夠很順暢，這樣子才能夠解決這個問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以像我們現在有的是直接丟到焚化爐，有的是剛剛講的發酵，就是廚餘發酵廠去處理。我想問一下，關於建置這種高速的廚餘發酵，你們未來還會繼續推嗎？還是就是朝著黑水虻這個方向？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，事實上，厭氧發酵是環境部現在在推動的，厭氧它又可以減碳，然後厭氧發酵所產生的沼氣就直接可以去發電，剩下的那些……"],["黃委員秀芳：就用黑水虻來處理？"],["薛部長富盛：是、是、是。事實上，包括沼液，黑水虻也可以幫忙處理，然後這個沼液還可以做再生水的資源利用。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們在去年選舉的時候有候選人說，如果吃東西不留廚餘的話就不用去建廚餘廠，當然我覺得這不太可能，所以我想要知道，未來像一些人口比較密集的地方，如果要設這種黑水虻的這種……譬如說有的清潔隊，各縣市的清潔隊，如果你們要去推的話，是不是也要從清潔隊、地方環保局下去推，各個清潔隊是不是也要有這樣的能力來處理這些廚餘？如果各個環保局可以自行來處理的話，我覺得這也是一個不錯的想法，不知道部長的看法如何。"],["薛部長富盛：可以，我非常認同黃委員剛剛的建議，事實上，清潔隊他們本身也有在收集廚餘，假如由清潔隊他們自己也來處理這個廚餘，而不必再送到其他地方去，我想對清潔隊員來講，或許未來也可以有額外的功能。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是如果說要養黑水虻，或者是需要什麼樣的……譬如說他養黑水虻來處理廚餘的這個地方，需要有什麼樣的條件？譬如說，這些處理廠或者是處理廚餘的事業廢棄物，算廚餘的這種事業廢棄物如果要處理的話，他至少要有丙級的處理證照，如果是在清潔隊的話，需要有這樣一個條件嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，我們看過很多黑水虻的養殖場，大小規模都有，甚至家戶也都可以有，我上次到宜蘭去參觀一位臺大的石教授那裡，他退休後就自己弄，事實上他有弄了一個家戶式的處理方式。"],["黃委員秀芳：也是養黑水虻？"],["薛部長富盛：對，小跟大大概都可以處理，所以這個彈性還滿大的，未來我們會推廣，希望清潔隊、地方環保局共同來推動，希望把廚餘能源化跟資源化，做最大的利用。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為我們看到目前還是小區域。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是少部分、小規模、小部分、局部的區域在做而已，如果部長你們未來的方向是這樣的話，其實我覺得可能要從最基層的，可以從各地區的清潔隊或者是環保局這邊來推動。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：像彰化田中鎮這邊，目前他們就是有養，聽說他們收的這些廚餘供黑水虻吃，有時候都還不夠吃。"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以我才會說廚餘現在事實上反而是供不應求，很多人都想要。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果是這樣子的話，未來這個廚餘真的也是我們滿頭痛的一個問題，因為每天所產生的廚餘真的是非常多，如果可以有更有效的方式來處理的話，我覺得整個資源循環再利用，我們看到黑水虻是整個都可以利用，連牠的糞便都可以。"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得這個真的還是不錯的，希望能夠從最基層的公所或者是清潔隊開始來推動，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝黃委員的支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","下一位我們有請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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趙主任好部長好部長我想針對我們的那個廢棄物的政策來跟這個部長這邊來討論看到前兩天部長有到那個外埔綠能生態園區去會館嗎是那你是去看黑水嗎還是"},{"start":21.429,"end":37.754,"text":"不是給黃文報告,事實上我去年11月17號因為我知道說外埔力能生技園區是國內第一個利用這個生廚宜去做早期花店,把它變成能源化"},{"start":38.154,"end":66.297,"text":"我覺得這個是一個非常好的案例結果我去了之後瞭解情況在早期發電方面的確已經開始在發電而且累計將近990萬瓦這個990萬度非常好可是他的問題是他產生的早雜早業都還要花很多錢硬到外面去處理那我個人覺得這個是不符合循環經濟的概念"},{"start":67.017,"end":67.037,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":86.188,"end":103.796,"text":"跟台中市政府環保局建議你們一定要這樣做你不能把這些早雜早月月送到外面去每年要花好幾百萬我個人覺得這個那部長我想問一下就是說我們之前的這個廚餘有的是用這個高速廚餘發酵廠"},{"start":105.657,"end":124.974,"text":"﹗"},{"start":125.294,"end":153.02,"text":"我不知道你的這個立場是怎樣你現在是希望就是說用養這個黑水芒來去化這個廚餘或者是用另外其他的方式事實上我的概念是希望能夠達到零廢棄事實上廚餘它是現在還蠻珍貴很多人都想要使用廚餘但是使用的方法我個人覺得有改善的空間我們朝兩個方向第一個是能源化"},{"start":154.668,"end":169.79,"text":"知言化知言化當然現在已經有在做譬如說農委會他們也很多包括把農業資材去做堆肥去做飼料那黑水盲他這些功能都可以他也可以能研化也可以知言化"},{"start":170.771,"end":200.258,"text":"他是一個非常好的方法那目前來講我們的廚藝的處理量能事實上不會有問題事實上是都夠只是很多單位他們所用的方法我個人覺得沒有全面去考量應該把循環經濟的概念所以你們現在要主推這個養黑水盲來區劃廚藝我們衡量了結果我覺得黑水盲真的是非常好的一個循環經濟的案例那我們也看到很多成功的例子"},{"start":202.34,"end":216.68,"text":"我想請問一下就是說目前養黑水芒其實還是少量就是說他養的那個還是少量那也是去不是全面性的啦那我想請教部長未來你們要怎麼去推動"},{"start":218.261,"end":246.016,"text":"基本上叫業界要馬上改變他以往的習慣事實上是有時候有一些挑戰所以我們現在是過度譬如說以剛剛黃委員講到外埔那個我們也是補助他們去做一個釋放的場域那希望這個可以成功他把他這個廚餘變成能源變成資源那將來國內的各縣市事實上可以以"},{"start":247.103,"end":269.277,"text":"台中外普的這個案例來推廣是那事實上現在包括新北包括像彰化彰化田中對也都有可是他們都是少量啦對但是量都很少是量都還是很少是所以這個當然要考量到從經濟的角度來看就是說你產生的這些這個不管是肥料"},{"start":270.157,"end":286.064,"text":"或者事料他的去化是不是能夠很順暢是這樣子才能夠解決這個問題所以像我們現在目前有的是直接丟到焚化爐那有的是剛剛講的這個發酵就是廚餘發酵廠去處理那我想問一下你們這個發酵就是說建置這種高速的發酵這個廚餘的發酵你們未來還會繼續推嗎還是就是朝著黑水嗎"},{"start":299.332,"end":299.892,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":329.612,"end":346.293,"text":"水的資源的利用當然就是我們在去年選舉的時候有候選人說如果說吃東西就是不留廚餘的話就不用去建這個廚餘廠那當然我覺得這不太可能所以我是想要知道就是說那未來像"},{"start":347.074,"end":358.349,"text":"像我們一些人口比較密集的地方如果要設這種黑水盲的這種比如說有的清潔隊各縣市的清潔隊如果說你們要去推的話是不是也要從清潔隊就是說地方環保局"},{"start":362.535,"end":363.135,"text":"我非常認同黃委員的建議"},{"start":383.007,"end":387.171,"text":"我講對清潔隊員來講或許未來也可以額外的一個啊這個功能可是如果說要養這個黑水嗎或者是需要什麼樣的譬如說他這個處理這個"},{"start":408.368,"end":409.248,"text":"實際上我們看過很多黑水盲的養殖場"},{"start":436.733,"end":459.471,"text":"大小規模都有甚至家戶也都可以我上一次到宜蘭去參觀一位臺大的石教授他退休他自己弄他事實上也有弄了一個家戶式的處理的方式也是養黑水馬對小跟大大概都可以處理所以這個彈性還蠻大的就是說未來我們會推廣希望說"},{"start":461.133,"end":484.871,"text":"這個清潔隊地方環保局共同來推動那希望把它除以把它能源化跟資源化是做最大的利用好因為我們看到目前還是小區域對就是小部分那小規模小部分小規模然後局部的區域在做而已那如果說部長你現在未來的這個方向是這樣的話"},{"start":485.692,"end":514.779,"text":"其實我覺得可能要從最基層的可能可以從各地區的這個清潔單位這個清潔隊或是環保局這邊來推動那我相信目前像彰化田中鎮這邊他們目前就是有養那聽說這些廚餘他們收的廚餘供這個黑水芒吃有時候都還不夠吃所以我才會說那個廚餘現在事實上反而是供不應求很多人都想要"},{"start":515.359,"end":529.83,"text":"好,那我們當然希望如果是這樣子的話我們也希望就未來這個廚餘真的是也是我們蠻頭痛的一個問題因為每天所產生的這個廚餘真的是非常的多"},{"start":530.45,"end":530.81,"text":"好謝謝黃委員的支持"},{"start":558.82,"end":562.18,"text":"那下一個我們有請那個圖圈及圖委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}