{"error":false,"id":["149843"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149843,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149843","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T09:42:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T09:51:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135602d326c66a6792fd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a631d4186e9443af555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:42:35 - 09:51:23","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時43分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：委員好！學長好！"],["陳委員永康：最近提到很多有關武裝衝突法、有關接戰規定的規則，剛才在前面委員的質詢中間甚至把歷史人物、國外戰略家講的「軍事是政治的延伸」這些話都套進來了，我這邊做一個建言。","第一個、在國防外交的領域，就是國家安全事務裡面，沒有用光譜這個字，spectrum是工程、科技的名詞，也就是「國家安全的光譜」這個話有這樣用嗎？沒有，就是國家安全的範疇及領域，同樣在軍事用語上、軍事與政治上面應該用的是範疇及領域，而不是用光譜，只有科技、工程才用光譜（spectrum）這個字，但現在在政治學上很多人喜歡把工程的名詞導入變成「政治的光譜」，我建言第一個、不要使用這個。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：第二點就是有關前次提出的標準作業程序，因為它是針對各單位、各獨立個案的規定，並沒有橫向跨單位、跨部會協調的連動關係，所以建議以後國軍聯三、在其他的作戰計畫次長室就不要再使用SOP這個名詞。","至於已經導入的現在國內正在深入講到的所謂ROE，上面只是一個論述的方法，我們不做細述，本席在會後會提供部裡面同仁就是剛才前面委員所提的Mr. Cooper的這本有關北約參考的ROE，北約現在有32個國家，這本書是2019年的，有480頁，算是在人道法案裡面有關自衛防禦，甚至面對敵意的行動之前，你有什麼預應的作為，都有一些論述，會後我會把這本書提供部裡做參考。"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：那麼ROE連帶出來就產生了一個共同圖像，前次我們在大會也提到，部長也重視這個，有關的前提、目標、方法及手段我在這邊不做細述，我就用幾個圖像做舉例。第一個，各位看到這張圖已經是套疊了四層，顯示了朝鮮半島、東海、日本防空識別區、韓國防空識別區、中國大陸在2013年11月23日發布的東海防空識別區、臺灣的防空識別區以及菲律賓的防空識別區，所以這一張大範疇的圖可以作一個基礎圖，我們到時候也可以提供部裡參考。在這個上面，我們再看到有關南海的問題，也就是說原來我們是十一段線，那麼中國大陸當初跟北越因為建立關係，取消了，變九段線。"],["邱部長國正：九段，是。"],["陳委員永康：後來它又把臺灣東岸畫一條第十段線，但這個裡面的原圖，原本是美國國務院製造出來的，它裡面有各地的臨海基線，所以這個圖等於我們跟外交部、海巡跟執法單位，甚至是國安局，可以共同分享。這張圖原本是一個衛照圖，我們把它變成一個單色，套上臺灣跟南海，再把剛才這個圖套上去，特別把東沙跟南沙的衛照再點上去，我們建議將來可以用這種方式，對於在決策過程的長官能夠瞭悉相關的位置，然後再套上你的機敏資料，平常只是一個單純的底圖。這張圖就顯示了中國大陸的基地以及訓練空域，包括紅色虛線的東海防空識別區。剛才前面委員所說的灰色地帶，有些是屬於防空識別區的重疊區，那在這個裡面製造的困擾，對我方的反應是一種消耗，當然你除了監控、監偵以外，因為中國大陸可以對外講，我在國際民航組織的圖已經畫上這個，所以原本是區塊，原本是灰色地帶，可能在法律上會變成灰色區塊的論述，我想國防部在這個地方，除了我們的作戰計畫參謀次長室以外，未來我們的法制司在國際法上面的引述，可以利用ROE裡面的一些條例跟範例來充實。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：各位看到這個就是金廈水道的圖，因為是已經經過座標校正了，所以有方格、有經緯度，那我們再套疊、再套上衛星，再套上當時這是某年某月某天的海上活動船。現在因為很多的軟體程式都可以點了就進入，可以查核它是哪一艘，是商船或是不明目標，根據這個不同的圖套疊加上海底水深。可是現在產生了一個結果，就是包括海巡用的圖，跟我們海軍用的圖，甚至陸委會發布的圖，它有座標顯示，但是沒有統一調校，所以將來這個要請我們的製圖單位、校正單位，把發生事件以後每一個單位的圖做一個調整，最後用一份最終的校正圖。"],["邱部長國正：好，我瞭解。"],["陳委員永康：因為像這張圖例上面是陸委會的圖，雖然標了經緯度的數字，但是並沒有校正，所以以這個方式，最後來收斂這個結果，未來回溯過程中間，對於執法過程哪些是解釋的落差，哪些是圖像的落差，最後能夠做一個收斂，我認為國防部在整體的領海問題、禁限制水域方面，做一個橫向跨部會協調，來協調海委會、協調國安局，大家能夠得到一個共識，這樣子比較周延。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：請教部長對這個看法如何？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，真的很感激，而且委員提供這些資料，我馬上就有一個概念，就是現在任何工作的推動，絕對不是單方面單打獨鬥的，所以剛剛委員提了這個共同圖像運用，要召集哪些人，可能不是國防部一個單位可以完成的，所以我們一定會把這個問題跟國安會建議，因為裡面剛剛委員點到幾個，不管外交、國安、海巡、內政，還有陸委會，都是有必要加入的，因為這些都要產製、加入共同圖像，大家認知一樣了，有任何狀況，處理起來，就不會變成好像有點，不能講亂了套，起碼有點權責不分的樣子，所以這一點特別跟委員報告，我們這個後續絕對會接續做下去，讓各部會作一個統一的依據。"],["陳委員永康：我最後就提出剛才先前給您的一個建言，就是我們不要用國防外交跟國安的光譜，那是範疇跟領域。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解，好。"],["陳委員永康：好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：好，以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員，真的謝謝委員！"],["主席（黃委員仁代）：謝謝陳永康委員的發言。","接下來我們請馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君","洪申翰","葉元之"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安\n全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.199093750000003,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.29596875,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.06784375,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.42096875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.43784375,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.45846875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.44971875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.752843750000004,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.30784375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.21471875,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.49721875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.48346875,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.51284375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.65971875000001,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.53284375000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.94596875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.86034375000001,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.15096875,"end":102.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.86721875,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.22971875,"end":105.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.93784375000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.62534375000001,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.97471875000001,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.40471875,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.24784375000002,"end":178.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.22659375,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.41846875000002,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.02909375000002,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.07471875000002,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.95596875,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.68159375000002,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.81659375,"end":212.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.98909375000002,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.15534375000001,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.64034375000003,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.07034375,"end":235.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.71971875000003,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.66034375,"end":240.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.30971875,"end":243.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.55409375000002,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.65909375,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.41846875000002,"end":267.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.83284375,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.59596875,"end":273.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.38471875,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.63346875,"end":276.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.21971875,"end":279.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.60721875,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.13846875,"end":299.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.06409375000004,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.60409375,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.40909375,"end":310.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.67846875000004,"end":313.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.44596875,"end":315.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.23471875,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.73971875,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.55346875000004,"end":334.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.25721875000005,"end":336.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.82221875000005,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.01596875,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.95596875,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.48159375,"end":356.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.40909375,"end":362.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.07971875000004,"end":370.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.97721875,"end":372.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.79971875,"end":377.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.77784375000005,"end":386.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.28284375000004,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.62034375,"end":389.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.13034375,"end":393.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.26471875000004,"end":395.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.08721875000003,"end":399.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.23846875000004,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.09784375000004,"end":414.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.98721875,"end":416.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.86034375,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.72096875000005,"end":420.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.01159375000003,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.87596875,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.51284375,"end":427.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.96409375,"end":442.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.96596875,"end":442.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.08409375,"end":444.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.53534375000004,"end":445.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.66596875000005,"end":446.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.01596875,"end":448.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.87221875,"end":451.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.60596875000005,"end":459.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.69784375,"end":457.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.40221875000003,"end":511.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.2040937500001,"end":513.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.26284375,"end":517.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.09346875,"end":521.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6922187499999,"end":521.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.2278437500001,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.96596875,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.7253437500001,"end":525.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.80971875,"end":527.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.0034687500001,"end":527.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.2522187500001,"end":528.60659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":31.426,"end":59.097,"text":"有請邱部長請邱部長最近提到很多有關武裝衝突法有關接戰規定的規則那麼剛才在前面的委員質詢中間甚至把歷史人物、國外的戰略家講的"},{"start":60.489,"end":61.17,"text":"陳永康,國防部長"},{"start":75.546,"end":76.286,"text":"國際安全局副局長"},{"start":103.095,"end":120.445,"text":"我建言第一個不要使用這個第二點就是有關前次提出的標準作業程序因為它是針對各單位各獨立個案的規定那麼它並沒有橫向跨單位跨部會協調的"},{"start":121.886,"end":122.006,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":139.667,"end":139.847,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":156.576,"end":156.756,"text":"主席委員"},{"start":182.776,"end":207.991,"text":"那麼ROE連帶出來就產生了一個共同圖像那麼前次我們在大會也提到部長也重視這個那麼這個有關的前提目標方法跟手段我在這邊不做細數我就用幾個圖像做舉例第一個各位看到這張圖啊已經是套疊了4層那麼顯示了朝鮮半島"},{"start":210.171,"end":237.116,"text":"東海日本防空識別區韓國防空識別區中國大陸在2013年的11月23號發布的東海防空識別區那麼台灣的防空識別區以及菲律賓的防空識別區所以這張的大範疇的圖可以做一個基礎圖我們到時候也可以提供物理做參考在這個上面我們在看到有關南海的問題了也就是說"},{"start":238.7,"end":267.257,"text":"原來我們是11段線那麼中國大陸當初跟北越因為建立關係取消了變9段線後來他又把它台灣東岸他去畫一條第10段線但這個裡面的原圖原本是美國國務院製造出來的它裡面有各地的領海基線所以這個圖呢就等於說我們跟外交部跟海巡跟執法單位甚至是國安局我們可以共同分享"},{"start":268.885,"end":279.493,"text":"那這張圖原本是一個偽造圖我們把它變成一個單色套上台灣跟南海再把剛才這個圖再套上去特別把"},{"start":284.175,"end":286.016,"text":"這張圖就顯示了中國大陸的基地以及訓練空域包括紅色虛線的東海防空識別區"},{"start":311.918,"end":335.284,"text":"剛才前面委員所說的灰色地帶有些是屬於防空識別區的重疊區那在這個裏面製造的困擾對我方的反應是一種消耗當然你除了監控、監偵以外因為中國大陸他可以對外講我在國際民航組織的圖已經畫上這個所以原本是區塊"},{"start":336.892,"end":357.027,"text":"原本是灰色地帶可能在法律上會變成灰色區塊的論述我想國防部在這個地方除了我們的作戰計畫參謀次長室以外未來以及我們的法制司在國際法上面的引述可以利用ROE裡面的一些條例跟範例來充實這個"},{"start":361.445,"end":376.975,"text":"各位看到這個就是經下水道的圖因為是已經經過坐標校正了所以有方格有經緯度那我們再套碟再套上衛星再套上當時這是某年某月某天的海上活動船"},{"start":378.316,"end":398.555,"text":"現在因為很多的軟體程式都可以點了就進入可以查核它是哪一艘是商船或是不明目標根據這個不同的圖套疊加上海底水深可是現在產生了一個結果就是包括海巡用的圖跟我們海軍用的圖甚至陸委會發布的圖"},{"start":400.276,"end":419.89,"text":"他有坐標顯示但是沒有統一調效所以將來這個要請我們的製圖單位、校正單位把發生事件以後每個單位的圖我們做一個調整最後用一份最終的校正圖因為像這張圖例上面是陸委會的圖"},{"start":421.272,"end":448.07,"text":"雖然標了經緯度的數字但是並沒有校正所以以這個方式最後呢來收斂這個結果未來回溯過程中間對於執法過程哪些是解釋的落差哪些是圖像的落差那麼最後能夠做一個收斂那麼我認為在國防部來講在整體的我們的領海問題境限制水域方面"},{"start":448.951,"end":468.153,"text":"作為一個橫向跨部會協調海委會協調國安局大家能夠得到一個共識這樣子比較周延請教部長對這個看法我跟委員報告真的很感謝而且對會委員提供這些資料我馬上就有一個概念就是說現在任何工作推動"},{"start":469.334,"end":489.569,"text":"絕對不是單方面單打獨鬥的所以剛剛委員提了這個共同圖像運用要召集哪些人可能不是國防部一個單位可以完成所以我們立刻把這個問題跟管國安會建議因為裡面剛剛委員點到幾個管外交、國安、海巡還有內政還有陸委會這些都是有必要加入的"},{"start":490.909,"end":505.376,"text":"因為這個產制加上共同圖像,大家認知一樣,但有任何狀況處理起來,就不會好像變成一個好像有點不能講爛的套,最起碼有點全者不分的樣。所以這一點特別跟委員報告,我們這個後續絕對會拔給接續做下去,讓各部會做一個統一的依據。"},{"start":512.64,"end":522.771,"text":"我最後就提出剛才先前跟您的一個建言就是我們不要用國防、外交跟國安的光譜那是範疇跟領域以上謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}