{"error":false,"id":["149844"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149844,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149844","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T09:45:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T09:57:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135997521e9d471dca151d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6d104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:45:35 - 09:57:30","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。你跟主計長最近有見面討論過你要的1,500億這件事了嗎？"],["王部長美花：其實經濟部跟主計總處都有密切在聯繫。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長今天說，目前沒有看到經濟部的方案，所以他目前沒辦法決定。媒體說他在躲你，你要去要1,500億，他躲起來對不對？"],["王部長美花：不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你們兩個坐下來談過了沒有？"],["王部長美花：我們其實都有在做整體的溝通討論。"],["張委員啓楷：所以他沒有躲你？"],["王部長美花：沒有啦！不會。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有躲起來的話，為什麼他說到目前沒看到經濟部的案子？"],["王部長美花：我再確認一下相關同仁聯繫的情況。"],["張委員啓楷：他的意思就是沒看到案子，所以他沒辦法決定要給你多少錢，他今天說的是稅收賸餘只剩下1,500億啦，不是以前大家說的還有3,000多億，他說現在能用的只有1,500億，你要跟他要1,500億，他就講了兩個點，他說，我口袋裡就沒錢了，全部給你就沒有賸餘啦！第二個，他說他要編114年（明年）的預算，他就有困難了，那現在怎麼辦？現在剩1,500億，你全部拿走，他又有困難，那是電價會漲得很高嗎？"],["王部長美花：院裡面怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策，當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在有兩件事情，第一個，你趕快找他，這是第一項，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，他竟然說沒看到方案，你趕快把方案給他。現在給你一個時間點，你現在公開跟他喊話，你沒有1,500億，電價要漲多少？"],["王部長美花：沒有，這個當然審議委員會會去計算。"],["張委員啓楷：不公開喊話，那趕快做剛剛講的兩件事情。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：趕快約他、趕快碰面。第二，方案趕快給他，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個也很重要，現在看起來1,500億……我覺得1,000億有可能啦！如果只剩下1,000億，那是不是整個電價調幅會很大，包括民生用電也會調很多嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們審議委員會這邊都會在工作當中，照顧民生這個一定提到的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我是給你機會，公開喊話跟主計長說。"],["王部長美花：是，我們當然……"],["張委員啓楷：1,500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要，對不對？"],["王部長美花：當然政府的撥補越多越好。"],["張委員啓楷：對民生也很重要，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：物價不要上漲，對民生很重要。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你儘快約他啦！"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你休息一下，我們請中油董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：李董，從105年開始，這8年你們到海外去探勘，海域的探勘已經花30億了，打水漂，是不是？都槓龜啊？已經損失了30億，是不是這樣？這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，如果從整體包括海內外探勘的部分，根據報告其實是有獲利的。"],["張委員啓楷：陸上有獲利，為什麼海域8年已經損失30億了，而且根據今年最新的預算書，你今年要再花6億下去，不要講說人民的納稅錢已經30億丟到海裡去了，你今年要再拿6億，你有把握嗎？這6億會不會又丟到水裡面，打水漂，又不見了？"],["李董事長順欽：我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利、高風險啦！我們其實在看的時候會整體包裹來看，不會只有針對某一個點來看它是虧還是還是盈利，所以也謝謝委員在立法院的預算給我們子彈，讓我們可以去尋求機會。我想本來我們會根據相關的資料……"],["張委員啓楷：你在陸上有賺到錢，那海域油氣的探勘為什麼損失這麼多，這要好好想啊！甚至今年這6億一定要投嗎？更重要的你自己想想看到底有多少把握。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你明年還要不要編？你在陸上如果有賺錢，你就都投資陸上的，是不是這樣？每個公司投資都是這樣，尤其你是用了人民納稅錢，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是，跟委員報告，事實上我們有一個評估有五大項在看整個成功率是多少，我們才會投進去。"],["張委員啓楷：現在很重要的是現在已經損失30億，丟到海裡了，這6億到底能不能回本？最少要回本吧？能不能賺的回來？"],["李董事長順欽：我請我們的部門再去做評估。"],["張委員啓楷：詳細的評估，不要再把人民納稅錢丟到海裡。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，看一下這個表，你去海外的探勘這麼多，有4個國家都掛零、都槓龜，印尼、巴拉圭、索馬利蘭、墨西哥，這4個國家到底出什麼事情，為什麼一直都槓龜？"],["李董事長順欽：現在還沒到生產階段，現在還在測勘，所以測勘之後才知道……"],["張委員啓楷：105年就去了，已經8年了還在測？這8年是怎樣，這8年為什麼都是零？"],["李董事長順欽：其實在美國Guardfish，據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來，因為Guardfish是CRC這邊，我們也去跟它談過；至於East Seram應該是印尼，是我們這幾年投入6個礦區……"],["張委員啓楷：你給我的預算書上面明明白白寫著就是掛零啊！"],["李董事長順欽：現在是在測勘階段。"],["張委員啓楷：所以什麼時候才會回收？"],["李董事長順欽：這個要看測勘之後，這一口井……"],["張委員啓楷：8年了，董事長，已經8年了。"],["李董事長順欽：印尼這個我們在查一下是不是105年開始投入，因為我記得是在我接總經理之後我們投入East Seram這個案子，我們提供詳細資料。"],["張委員啓楷：有兩件事要特別注意，在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大，這個要注意，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，有些國家一直都槓龜，也要注意，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來我問你一個也是很重要、國人很關心的，天然氣的安全存量，裴洛西那時候來臺灣以後，中國大陸軍演了7天，我們臺灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少，可以撐幾天？如果兩岸兵凶戰危，中國大陸現在又開始演習的話，我們天然氣可以撐幾天，什麼時候會斷氣？"],["李董事長順欽：依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天，安全存量8天，我們現在大概在11天左右，所以絕對超過安全存量。至於如果有一些狀況……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你現在寄望中國大陸的軍演都不要超過8天喔？上次裴洛西來台時，就是7天了，對不對？現在很多人都認為兩岸是緊繃的，惡意螺旋一直在向上旋轉，最危險的時候、最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會，11日已經開完大會了，對不對？所以最敏感的時間就是到520，520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天，你的安全存量只有8天，怎麼辦？到時候臺灣不就斷氣了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上我們跟台電有一個機制，電跟氣有一個機制在協調，我們會把存量存到最高，所以我們希望除了儲槽容積天數之外，事業安全存量天數也能夠拉高，所以我們不斷在建儲槽。如果真的有一些狀況的時候，台電跟中油其實是國安問題，我們會展開雙方的機制，看是不是要調整天然氣的用量或是調整其他能源配比的用量。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，董事長，你們有在努力，我現在是說你跟全國的民眾講，如果出現中國大陸有軍演或是有比較兵凶戰危的事情，我們天然氣到底可以撐幾天不會斷氣？你對著全民講，你可以撐幾天不會斷氣？"],["李董事長順欽：我跟委員報告，事實上可以撐幾天，要depend一些case、你的假設前提……"],["張委員啓楷：你一定會盡最大努力嘛！盡最大努力可以撐幾天？如果我們看到新聞報導或是大陸開始有動作，我們可以知道幾天內我們是安全的，這是中油的重責大任，也是經濟部的重責大任，也是國安單位的重責大任。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：他們叫你要幾天？你目前是可以撐8天，對不對？最久可以撐幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題，我剛剛特別報告，我跟台電之間都在協調……"],["張委員啓楷：對，透過那個協調，8天可以再加幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：他調整一下氣的用量，甚至包括如果比較長期的……"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，你盡最大的努力跟台電再做一些結合，盡最大努力，可以從8加多少變成幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：我跟委員報告，不只跟台電，可能跟台電的IPP還有包括工業用氣，工業用氣大概也占我們的14%，工業用氣怎麼去調整？我們當然是以守住民生為主，民生大概占7%，我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力，讓它能夠撐得最久。"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，我知道你很努力，我是說你對全民、對全臺灣的民眾講清楚，如果發生兵凶戰危，在你非常努力的狀況之下，我們天然氣不會斷氣，然後我們是安全的，存量是安全的，用電是安全的，這樣是幾天？很明確一個答案就好了，有14天嗎？可以從8天撐到14天嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：不止，細節部分我們再跟委員做報告。"],["主席：張委員，本席尊重您的質詢，但是您的問題是兩岸兵凶戰危的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠，這個牽扯到幾個問題，你的前提是打仗的時候，然後你來問天然氣夠不夠，如果董事長在這裡回答你，是不是洩漏了臺灣所有能源儲存的機密問題？所以如果您可以的話，他是不是私底下再回答您這個問題，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：主席，抱歉！我非常尊重主席啦……"],["主席：因為我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全，所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title來質問中油董事長，天然氣的儲存量在兵凶戰危的時候夠不夠，假使他現在回答你10天，你現在是要告訴中國說，臺灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天，到時候你要打過來的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，你太輕忽董事長的智慧了……"],["主席：我覺得我們尊重您的質詢權，但是是不是讓……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，你輕忽了董事長的智慧……"],["主席：No、No、No，主席做裁示，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：他不會講到一個8天，他一定講到一個彈性，這是大家要重視的安全，不是洩漏國家機密，而且這是什麼？依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲槽容量的規定，這是一個公開的事情不是嗎？我只是說在你的努力之下，你能夠有多大的彈性？"],["主席：董事長，您再私下跟張委員做報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，主席，可是你剛剛講的那個很嚴重喔！不是洩漏國家機密……"],["主席：我講這樣很嚴重，所以您自己也知道這個很嚴重，你不應該在這裡問這樣的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你不要輕忽董事長的智慧，他講的當然是一個彈性，可是對臺灣民眾來講，你要讓全民可以安心吧！"],["主席：您問的這個問題跟那一天大鵬主委被記者問到他要去跟誰會談是一樣的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我講一個點，不是打仗，以前裴洛西來臺灣之後，不就有軍事演習嗎？"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我們要共同努力讓全民能夠安心。"],["主席：您的質詢時間已經到了，我們要共同維護國家的安全，好不好？好，謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們要共同維持國家安全，共同讓全民可以安心，好不好？謝謝主席、謝謝董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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是。 是。 他說的意思就是沒看到案,所以沒辦法我一定要罵很多人。 而且他今天說的是說只剩下1500億啦。"},{"start":71.986,"end":94.337,"text":"所以說剩餘不是說已經大家在講會有三千五百億他說現在能用的只有一千五百億你不要拖一千五百億他就講了兩個點他說我落地就沒有錢了對不對全部給你我就沒有剩餘啦第二個他說他要編一百十四年明年的預算他就有困難了那現在怎麼辦他現在等一千五百億你全部拿走他又有困難"},{"start":95.387,"end":96.028,"text":" 那什麼?"},{"start":96.028,"end":97.189,"text":"電價會漲得很高嗎?"},{"start":97.189,"end":109.701,"text":"我們當然院裡面的怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策 那當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他對對 博士現在不用擔心啦 第一你稍微找他這是第一人 對不對?"},{"start":109.701,"end":118.549,"text":"是是是第一他快點說沒看到方案 你趕快把方案給他好不好 那現在給你一個時間點 你現在公開跟他喊話啊 你沒請我用你等一下會不會漲多少"},{"start":119.434,"end":141.736,"text":"不公開喊話,那你趕快做,剛剛講的兩件事情,趕快約他趕快碰面,第二,方案趕快給他好不好?那第二個也很重要,那現在看起來1500億,我覺得可能一千也有可能啦,如果只剩下1000億,那是不是調補,整個電價調補會很大,包括民生用電也會調很多嗎?"},{"start":143.743,"end":152.13,"text":"這個主計那個我們審議委員會這邊會都會在工作當中那這個一定會提到的照顧民生。 1500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要對不對?"},{"start":162.119,"end":163.119,"text":"你從105年開始這百年啊你們到海外"},{"start":191.144,"end":218.212,"text":"去探勘海域的探勘已經落30億了打水漂是不是?都槓鼓了已經損失了30億是不是這樣?這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎?跟委員報告齁如果整個從探勘我們整體包括海內外整個我們根據報告其實是有獲利的是有獲利的路上有獲利嘛那為什麼海域"},{"start":219.753,"end":220.515,"text":"已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、"},{"start":229.275,"end":254.942,"text":"不要講說人民納稅錢已經30億丟到海裡去了你今年要再拿下去你有把握嗎這6億會不會又丟到水裡去打水漂又不見了我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利高風險那這個我們其實在看就會整體包裹來看不會只有針對某一個點來看他是虧還是淫意所以這個也謝謝委員在"},{"start":256.022,"end":256.583,"text":"2月11日及14日三天一次會議"},{"start":279.253,"end":282.777,"text":"你路上如果有賺錢,你就多投資路上的啊,是不是這樣?"},{"start":282.777,"end":286.701,"text":"目前公司到處都是這樣,尤其你是用了人民納稅錢喔,好不好?"},{"start":286.701,"end":293.227,"text":"是,跟委員報告,事實上我們有一個評估,有五大項在看,它的整個成功率多少?"},{"start":293.227,"end":300.815,"text":"我現在問你就是,現在你們很重要的,就是說現在已經損失30億,丟到海裡了,這6億到底能不能回本?"},{"start":300.815,"end":301.455,"text":"最重要回本吧?"},{"start":302.301,"end":304.063,"text":"你去海外的這個探勘這麼多 有四個國家都掛鈴欸 都放骨欸"},{"start":319.312,"end":323.137,"text":"印尼、巴拉圭、索馬、利蘭、墨西哥。"},{"start":338.568,"end":366.497,"text":"像那個其實在美國KFISH其實據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來因為KFISH是CRC這邊我們也去跟他談過那至於ISLAND ISLAND應該是印尼嘛印尼ISLAND嘛是我們這幾年投入我們這幾年投入6個礦區你給我一個你就是預算書上面明明白白寫的就是領阿都掛領阿現在是在測看階段嘛現在在測看階段嘛所以什麼時候才會回收"},{"start":368.141,"end":371.627,"text":"這個可能要看側看之後這一口井到底"},{"start":374.002,"end":379.926,"text":"在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大 這個要注意 有些國家一直都鞏固了也要注意接下來問你一個是很重要的 國人很關心的天然氣的安全存量 培洛西那時候來台灣以後"},{"start":404.164,"end":423.941,"text":"中國大陸今年的7天對不對?我們台灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少?動武規綱如果兩岸兵兇戰危中國大陸現在又開始有演習的話我們可以撐幾天?天然氣可以撐幾天?什麼時候斷氣?現在我們依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天"},{"start":424.682,"end":426.184,"text":"你現在計畫中國大陸的經驗都不要超過你的8天喔?"},{"start":438.49,"end":440.952,"text":"在附近培洛西他就是7天對不對?"},{"start":440.952,"end":453.92,"text":"這邊現在很多人都認為說現在兩岸是緊繃的 二一螺旋一直在向上旋轉的時候 最危險的時候最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會嘛 11號已經開完大會對不對?"},{"start":453.92,"end":455,"text":"最敏感的時間就是到520嘛"},{"start":456.522,"end":478.582,"text":"520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天你安全存量只有8天怎麼辦到時候台灣不就斷氣了嗎跟委員報告事實上我們跟台電有一個機制電跟氣有一個機制在協調我們會把存量存到最高所以我們希望除了除草容積天數之外事業安全存在天數也能夠拉高所以我們不斷在建除草那如果真的有一些狀況的時候"},{"start":479.343,"end":482.644,"text":"對啦當然你沒有在努力我先說你跟全國的民眾講如果出現中國大陸今年或者有比較兵兇戰威的事情我們到底可以撐幾天天然氣沒有斷氣你對著全民講"},{"start":502.421,"end":528.108,"text":"對著全民講你可以撐幾天不會斷氣我跟委員報告喔事實上可以撐幾天要depend一些case你再假設前提你一定會盡最大努力嘛對不對盡最大努力最大努力可以撐幾天所以如果我們看到新聞報導或者是大陸開始有動作我們知道幾天內我們是安全的啊我想這個齁這是中油的重責大任也是經濟部的重責大任對不對是也是國安單位的重責大任啊他們叫你要幾天你沒錢可以當八天對不對"},{"start":530.932,"end":537.616,"text":"最久可以動幾天?事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題我剛剛特別報告我跟台電之間"},{"start":539.161,"end":542.002,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":563.588,"end":588.961,"text":"我們當然是以守住民生為主民生大概佔7%我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力讓他能夠撐得最久董事長我知道你很努力我是說你對全民對全台灣的民眾講清楚如果發生兵凶戰危你非常努力的狀況之下我們天然氣不會斷氣然後我們是安全的存量是安全的用電是安全的規管明確一個答案就好了"},{"start":589.98,"end":592.403,"text":"張委員本席尊重您的質詢但是我想您的問題是兩岸冰凶站尾的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠"},{"start":606.258,"end":606.718,"text":"主席,不好意思"},{"start":628.549,"end":644.825,"text":"所以我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title然後來質問中油董事長天然氣的儲存量在兵兇戰委的時候夠不夠他現在回答你10天你現在是要告訴中國說台灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天"},{"start":645.586,"end":651.114,"text":"主席,主席,你太欺負董事長的智慧了,他不會講到一個八天,他一定講到一個彈性,這是大家要重視的安全,不是洩漏國家機密,而且這是什麼?"},{"start":661.508,"end":675.104,"text":"依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲存容量的規定。這是一個分開的事情不是嗎?我是說你的努力之下你能夠有一個多大的彈性。 您在私下跟張委員做報告好不好?"},{"start":675.104,"end":677.647,"text":"隨便喔,進一步啦。可是沒有主席,可是你剛剛講那個很嚴重喔。"},{"start":678.047,"end":680.51,"text":"對,我講這個很嚴重所以你自己也知道這個很嚴重你不應該在這裡問這樣的一個問題您問的這個問題跟那一天您問的這個問題跟那一天"},{"start":693.024,"end":693.884,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}