{"error":false,"id":["149854"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149854,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149854","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T10:06:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T10:18:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313513dbd910fd662c2d51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6befde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:06:57 - 10:18:47","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時7分）主席，美麗的主席，本席要發言以前，我們兩位都是最美麗的主席，因為經濟委員會都是非常的和諧，而且大家都很好、都為國家，所以我看到電視，我也希望我們經濟委員會還是維持原來的和諧，為國家做事，好嗎？謝謝。來，請我們的部長。"],["主席：對不起，我請教一下，我哪裡沒有為國家做事？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，來……"],["主席：等等，楊委員您說明清楚吧！你剛剛這樣講，好像我沒有在為國家做事。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事……"],["主席：對呀！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是整個過程，因為我們都是召委，經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧，而且非常的尊重所有的委員……"],["主席：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括我在當主席的時候，我相信你在主持的時候也是如此。"],["主席：是，對啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以剛剛看到那個畫面讓我也很shock，因為在經濟委員會怎麼會如此？","主席，本席發言，請王部長。"],["主席：我還是要強調一下，因為剛剛張啓楷委員的質詢時間已經到，而且我認為他質詢的問題內容，其實有涉及國家安全，所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國家安全就不能私下了，怎麼可以私下？"],["主席：沒有，這涉及國家安全……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國家安全就是可講跟不可講……"],["主席：這涉及機密的問題，不宜在這裡做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個天然氣保存，本來就是最久可以放8天啊！"],["主席：天然氣保存可以問，但是你的前提是在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：放一個禮拜，這哪有什麼國安問題？"],["主席：前提是在打仗的情況之下，我認為這個涉及國家安全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：前提在打仗，這個是中油自己也公布啊！"],["張委員啓楷：國防部長都詢答過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好了現在……這沒有什麼國安問題啦……"],["張委員啓楷：……都做好準備了啊！"],["主席：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是這樣啦！"],["主席：我希望他私下來跟你做報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要尊重每一位發言的委員……"],["主席：我們都非常的尊重……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請尊重每一位發言的委員，現在是本席質詢，請主席裁示。"],["主席：好，我1分鐘……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼可以1分鐘，現在是我質詢，你已經叫我……"],["主席：因為我時間還沒有開始，如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：30秒也一樣啊！國安事件就沒有私底下的問題，對吧？"],["主席：那也請您互相尊重，因為我是主持人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以請你裁示……"],["主席：我是這個會議的主席。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經叫我上來，不然我要再下去囉！"],["主席：我是會議的主席，所以也請您尊重我的主持方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以你已經叫我，你已經請我上來了，我也給你鞠躬啦！"],["主席：好，我們請王部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，本席也再請李董事長一起。"],["主席：請李董事長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。部長，我想要邀請你跟李董事長一起，我們就實質來討論，因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口，所以大家都關心也是國安的焦點之一。但是經過我們的統計，臺灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%，但是能夠自主運輸的量，大概就只有10%，剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購，但國外的採購像戰爭等不可抗的因素，我們又怕不穩定。在這樣的情況之下，運輸的成本更是逐年的上漲，所以本席一直關心跟你討論過幾次，也就是請重視臺灣的LNG船隊的議題。我們有共同的一個目標，希望能夠朝向國氣國運，是不是？部長。等一下，先把原則講好，我們已經討論過幾次嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國氣國運，您曾經回答過，是朝這個方向。"],["王部長美花：這個部分委員提了，我們也跟航港局做很多的討論，這個裡面牽涉的問題確實是比較複雜一點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以也有在討論嘛？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以我再給你一個背景，因為中油目前我們是以賣方包運DES的方式去採購天然氣，除了有這樣的問題之外，在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出。我們也知道目前為止中油的樣態，我們也必須要全力的支持中油，因為沒有油連車也不能開了、氣也產生不出來，就什麼都會有問題啦！在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定，國氣國運我們必須要去實施。我也很歡喜、很高興，部長你當時承諾朝這個方向去努力，所以本席首先要請問的是，我們國氣國運的作業進程現在如何？請說明。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上中油公司跟航港局還有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有進展？"],["李董事長順欽：有，還有海運總處，就是航商所組成的海運總處，討論過很多很多的方案，當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承運，這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見，持續在收斂之中，我們最近會再開一次會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，持續收斂中，那就是有好的方向。"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們部長也在關心，我們會安排跟部長報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有朝這個目標，也給部長報告，因為部長也支持這個方向，當然本席也知道要增加這個是很不容易，但是我們不怕苦，所有的關鍵哪裡可以解套要好好去想辦法，為了國內的能源穩定，國氣國運是占了很重要的角色。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，國氣國運哪一種比較好，FOB還是DES那一種比較好，其實決定於很多條件啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，李董，你現在說到這裡，現在DES的方式是由賣方來包運，那是不是有可能考慮由買方來包運的方式呢？我們可以節省成本啊！有沒有可能？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上不一定節省成本，所以這個必須要釐清的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，有沒有可能？"],["李董事長順欽：像DES的話，前年俄烏戰爭之後運費暴漲、兵險暴漲，都是賣方吸收，所以哪一種好，其實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：董事長跟部長在這邊，我們討論到現在，為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全？因為有時候那邊暴漲、有時候那邊暴跌，所以我們要運用哪一種方式？針對李董事長剛才回答的，有一句話本席蠻贊同，就是到底用哪個方式可以讓我們節省，而且最重要是穩定我們的能源，這是最重要的，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是，跟委員報告，其實我們努力的方向就是多元分散、穩定供應，然後加上價格具有競爭性，替國家省錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然啦！但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是minus，而且很緊張啊！所以我們會想盡一切辦法，用什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案，朝這個方向趕快再去努力，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一直努力、一直努力，您請回座。","接下來本席要請教部長，我還是跟你討論一下電的問題，媒體說22號就要宣布嗎？會嗎？22號要宣布漲或不漲，漲要漲多少，是不是22號？"],["王部長美花：具體的時程，我還沒有掌握到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看到媒體報導的22號嗎？"],["王部長美花：我還沒有掌握到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還沒掌握到，那我告訴你，今天媒體報導說22號可能會宣布，那今天是幾號了？10幾號？"],["王部長美花：今天14號。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：14號，距離22號剩下一個禮拜，因為你當時告訴我們，審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來號會開，所以22號不是不可能。請教部長，主計總處說，如果把1,500億照去年度來撥補給台電，那我們國家沒有盈餘，他講的這個數字對嗎？一個國家撥補1,500億就沒有盈餘，那我們臺灣怎麼辦？不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛！所以請教部長，昨天你也回答本席，我也給你鼓勵、給你加油，我說不然我也願意親自到行政院去拜託。第一個方案就是行政院支援我們，這你也是列為第一個方案嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你現在談的，他們要支援我們多少？要撥補給台電多少？"],["王部長美花：目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還沒有定案，那你有跟行政院院長講過了嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，我們跟院裡面都有密切聯繫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有嗎？有跟行政院陳院長講過了嗎？"],["王部長美花：在審議之前，因為這裡面有很多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你跟陳院長講過了嗎？因為箭在弦上……"],["王部長美花：院長知道、院長知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長知道，那他支不支持這個1,500億撥補回來給台電呢？"],["王部長美花：院長支持撥補台電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：實質撥補，好、好……"],["王部長美花：相關的經費要估算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那經費呢？你給他報告多少？"],["王部長美花：經費的部分就是要精算。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教部長，你給他報告多少？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他給多少是他的事，你給他報告多少？"],["王部長美花：我們有提出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提出多少？"],["王部長美花：因為這個還是要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提出2,000億嗎？有沒有？"],["王部長美花：沒有，這還是要以院裡面最後的決定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！那是院的決定，就像你報給審議委員會，讓審議委員會去做決定啊！那我請問，你給院長報告多少？2,000億嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1,500億？"],["王部長美花：我們有跟院裡面做說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有1,500億啦？"],["王部長美花：我們當然是爭取到可以讓撥補的經費比較多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以也要看你提出多少啊？"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有報告1,500億嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有一些方案有報告，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有1,500億？"],["王部長美花：我們有報告一些方案，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有報告方案，一次不是1,500億？"],["王部長美花：相關的細節……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們支持！"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要支持，因為主計總處會講出這個數字，我預估應該是部長你仁心仁術啊！330度以下的不能漲，學校的、教育的，班班有冷氣的不能漲，農、漁業不能漲，這是最辛苦的啊！好不好？你昨天答應我瓦斯桶不要漲，我會感謝你，你昨天答應我水不能漲，我也跟你感謝啊！但是這1,500億，主計總處如果真的……我希望他是誤說啦！如果一個國家1,500億補給我們台電就沒有盈餘，這樣蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓是不對的。所以站在部長你的立場，他會講出這個數字，應該是你有講1,500億嘛，對不對？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你瞇瞇笑我就知道你應該是如此。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我一定支持！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你一定要幫我們爭取到，剛剛我所說的，學校教育，班班有冷氣不能漲，農不能漲，漁不能漲，330度以下的民生用電，拜託、拜託、再拜託不能漲，因為我們怕物價漲，太恐怖了，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：拜託你，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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來請我們的部長來 部長 這個楊委員您說明清楚吧你剛剛這樣講好像我沒有在為國家做事我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事但是整個過程我們因為我們都是召委經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧而且非常的尊重所有的委員"},{"start":64.243,"end":91.744,"text":"包括我在主席的時候我相信你在主持的時候也是如此所以剛剛看到那個畫面讓我也很下渴因為在經濟委員會怎麼會有如此主席本席發言請王部長我還是要強調一下因為剛剛張其凱委員的質詢時間已經到而且我認為他的質詢的問題內容其實有涉及國家安全所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告"},{"start":92.424,"end":102.713,"text":"國家安全就不能私下了怎麼可以私下國家安全就是可講更不講什麼這個天然氣保存本來就是最久可以放過天然氣保存的是可以問但是你的前提是在打仗的情況之下我認為這個涉及國家安全這個是自己中油也公布啊好了現在"},{"start":119.076,"end":122.661,"text":"這沒有什麼國安問題啦!"},{"start":122.661,"end":132.495,"text":"我要尊重每一位發言的委員請尊重每一位發言的委員 現在是本席質詢 請主席採視"},{"start":134.302,"end":138.245,"text":"我是會議的主席,所以也請您尊重我的主持方式。"},{"start":165.623,"end":188.608,"text":"主席北京也再請李董事長一起我們來討論來請李董事長謝謝部長我想邀請你跟李董事長一起我們就實質來討論因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口所以我們大家都關心國安的焦點之一但是經過我們的統計我"},{"start":190.848,"end":203.467,"text":"我們統計出台灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%但是能夠自主運輸的量大概就只有10%那剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購那國外的採購像這個"},{"start":207.092,"end":207.793,"text":"是不是啊部長?"},{"start":234.383,"end":260.293,"text":"部長等一下先原則講好我們已經討論過幾次嘛國氣、國運您曾經回答過是朝這個方向這個部分也委員提了我們也跟航港局有做一些很多的討論這個裡面牽涉的問題確實是比較複雜一點所以也有在討論嘛好那所以我再給你一個背景因為中油目前我們是以賣方包運DS的方式去採購天然氣"},{"start":262.254,"end":287.192,"text":"除了有這樣的問題之外在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出我們也知道目前為止中油的這個樣態也必須要全力的支持中油因為沒有油這就車也不會走什麼都氣也產生不出來什麼都會有問題所以在這樣的情況之下本期要請教"},{"start":289.173,"end":313.212,"text":"本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定那國企國運我們必須要去實施那部長你當時我也很歡喜很高興你承諾出朝這個方向去努力所以本席首先要請問的是我們的國企國運的作業進程現在如何請說明"},{"start":315.379,"end":332.436,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上中油公司跟海運還有海運總署,就是航商所組成的海運總署,討論過很多很多的這個方案。那當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承認這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見,持續在收斂之中。我們最近會再開一次會。"},{"start":338.502,"end":366.164,"text":"收斂中那就是有好的方向部長也在關心我們會安排跟部長我們要朝這個目標那也給部長報告因為部長也支持這個方向當然我本席也知道要增加這個是很不容易但是我們不怕苦所有的關鍵哪裡可以解套好好去想辦法因為為了國內的能源穩定這一個國氣國運是佔了很重要的角色不過跟委員報告"},{"start":368.565,"end":388.94,"text":"國企國運哪一種比較好?FOV還是DES那一種比較好?其實決定了很多條件啊齁。 好你現在說到這李董,你現在對當然所以你的DES方式現在是賣方來包運,那你是不是有可能去考慮買方來包運的方式呢?我們可以節省成本啊。"},{"start":390.162,"end":390.862,"text":"所以董事長跟部長在這邊也就是"},{"start":406.48,"end":435.489,"text":"我們討論到現在就是說為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全因為有時候那邊暴漲有時候那邊暴跌所以我們要運用哪一種方式李董事長剛才回答的有一句本席蠻贊同的就是到底我們用哪個方式可以讓我們節省而且最重要是穩定我們的能源這是最重要的對不對我們其實努力的方向就是說多元分散然後穩定供應然後加上價格具有競爭性"},{"start":436.429,"end":459.162,"text":"當然啦當然啦但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是馬拉斯而且很緊張所以我們會想盡一切辦法什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定啊 對不對那你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案朝這個方向趕快再去努力好不好我們一直努力一直努力那接下來你請回座接下來本席要請教部長我還是跟你討論一下電的問題"},{"start":463.644,"end":484.914,"text":"媒體說22號就要宣布嗎?會嗎?22號要宣布漲或不漲,漲要漲多少?是不是22號?具體的時程我沒有掌握到。你看到媒體報導的22號嗎?我還沒有掌握到,是。那我告訴你,今天的媒體報導說22號可能會宣布。那今天是幾號了?十幾號?今天14。14號距離22剩下一個禮拜。"},{"start":490.899,"end":499.241,"text":"因為當時告訴我們審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來會開那所以這個22號不是不可能那所以請教部長"},{"start":500.403,"end":527.438,"text":"主計總書說如果把1500億照去年度的來撥補給台電那我們國家沒有盈餘他講的這個數字對嗎一個國家撥補1500億就沒有盈餘那我們台灣怎麼辦不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛那所以請教請教部長昨天你有回答本席我也給你鼓勵給你加油我說不然我我也願意親自到行政院去拜託第一個方案"},{"start":528.769,"end":542.978,"text":"就是說行政院支援我們你也是列為第一個方案嘛那你現在談論的他要支援我們多少?要撥補給台電多少?目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案還沒有定案那你有跟行政院長講過了嗎?"},{"start":544.479,"end":549.944,"text":"有,我們跟院裡面都有密切在聯繫是有嗎?有跟行政院長陳院長講過了嗎?有沒有?你跟陳院長講過了嗎?因為建在學上了院長知道院長知道那他支不支持你這個1500億撥補回來給給給這個台電呢?院長支持要來這個撥補台電那實際上相關的經費的部分那經費呢?你給他報到多少?"},{"start":572.783,"end":596.358,"text":"經費的部分就是要精算請教部長你給他報告多少他給多少是他的事你給他報告多少我想我們有提出來你提出多少你提出兩千億嗎這個還是要以院裡面最後的決定當然啊那是院的決定就像你報給審議委員會那審議委員會去做決定啊那我請問你給院長報告多少兩千億嗎"},{"start":598.82,"end":600.1,"text":"一千五百億?"},{"start":600.1,"end":603.222,"text":"有沒有一千五百億啦?"},{"start":603.222,"end":607.164,"text":"有一千五百億嗎?"},{"start":607.164,"end":611.587,"text":"對啊,那所以也要看你提出多少啊?"},{"start":611.587,"end":612.868,"text":"那你有報告一千五百億嗎?"},{"start":612.868,"end":613.968,"text":"有一千五百億?"},{"start":613.968,"end":616.009,"text":"有報告方案,是不是一千五百億?"},{"start":621.754,"end":627.124,"text":"我們支持一定要支持因為主席總書會講出這個數字應該我預估應該是部長你人心人數啊330度以下的不能講"},{"start":634.451,"end":652.119,"text":"那個學校的、教育的、班班有冷氣的不能漲。農、漁、業不能漲。這最辛苦的啊。好不好?你昨天答應我瓦斯桶不要漲,我給你感謝。你昨天答應我水不能漲,我給你感謝啊。但是這1500億,總計總數如果真的,我希望他是誤說啦。"},{"start":658.902,"end":684.363,"text":"如果一個國家1500億鋪給我們台灣鋪給我們台電就沒有營餘這樣子蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓不對的所以站在你部長的立場他會講出這個數字應該是你有講1500億嘛對不對謝謝委員支持你明明笑我就知道你應該是如此我一定支持所以你一定要幫我們爭取到所以剛剛我所說的"},{"start":685.566,"end":703.397,"text":"學校教育斑斑有冷氣學校教育不能漲龍電不能漲水那個那個魚不能漲330度以下的民生用電拜託拜託再拜託不能漲因為我們怕物價漲太恐怖了好不好謝謝委員拜託你謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}