{"error":false,"id":["149878"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149878,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149878","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T11:03:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T11:12:41+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231352e6c477069d469d751d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6a29ab434738161915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:03:08 - 11:12:41","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時3分）謝謝主席。請經濟部王部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["邱委員志偉：中油李董事長。"],["主席：李董。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我還是再問一次，今年中油會持續虧損、打平，還是轉虧為盈？你再答一次。"],["李董事長順欽：抱歉，我用詞不夠精準，對召委真的有點抱歉。"],["邱委員志偉：到底是哪一個，會持續虧損、打平，還是轉虧為盈？"],["李董事長順欽：我們的會計幫我根據估計的油氣價格抓，大概在打平附近，但是我們會努力創造一些營利，抱歉我剛才回答得不夠清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：財務應該是很精確的，不是很抽象的。"],["李董事長順欽：因為油氣價格變化很大。"],["邱委員志偉：好，繼續努力。"],["李董事長順欽：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：我們所有的液化天然氣接收站都是在西岸，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一接就在我選區，二接在臺中，三接在桃園，如果兩岸發生衝突，臺灣海峽會不會被封鎖？有可能被封鎖，對不對？我們所有的接收站就是在西岸，萬一封鎖的時候，這些油氣船沒有辦法進來，沒有辦法靠港，你會不會斷氣？有沒有考慮在東部再設一個接收站？這是國安問題，部長，你要站在經濟部長的角度看，所有接收站都是在西岸，在臺灣海峽，東岸有可能設嗎？請部長回答。"],["王部長美花：第一個，假設封鎖，這個是天底下的大事了，全球的大事，這是第一個。第二個，東岸如果可以設早就設了，東岸有很多地質的問題，還有使用需求的問題；因為天然氣都需要拉管線，所以在東岸設其實有很多客觀、主觀的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：要想到最壞的狀況。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：其他國家的影響絕對不會比臺灣大，如果直接發生衝突的話，衝突的區域最有可能就是在臺灣海峽。"],["王部長美花：沒有，假設單純封鎖……"],["邱委員志偉：它進行封鎖的時候船怎麼進來？"],["王部長美花：這個不僅影響臺灣，影響亞洲，也影響全世界的貿易。"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解，但是其他國家的補氣船可以從太平洋，可以從東岸走，對不對？我們所有的接收站都在西岸要特別注意，是不是有其他替代方案？","另外，中油要投40億在海盛風場，台電出多少？"],["王部長美花：台電大概是20億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：總共60億。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：建置風場希望達到國產化，台電、中油針對海盛風場的投資，有辦法做到國產化嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員很關心，這個問題我們會儘量討論，最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有供應鏈交換意見。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的兄弟公司中鋼嗷嗷待哺，興達海基為了追求國產化，國產化的學習曲線高，當然成本會比較高，如果連兄弟公司都不相挺，情何以堪？現在海盛風場的投資會跟興達海基合作嗎？董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：這一塊事實上站在中油投資的立場，我們也要求要依照相關的規定，國產化的比例60%，這個一定要符合規定。"],["邱委員志偉：我建議一樣是國營事業要相挺，部長，你應該做一個協調者、整合者，思考怎麼樣把國營事業的力量結合在一起。"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員，這個我們後續會處理。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，全球的燃油車希望慢慢能夠淘汰，對不對？禁售燃油車。未來的替代能源或者是乾淨能源，中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向轉型？做了哪些準備？不要說氫能，氫能的部分未來可能會有很多加氫站，這個部分中油有沒有相關的準備？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上，加氫站剛剛也回應過，我們希望得標廠商林德能夠在6月份進來，然後我們希望第三季完成相關的丙類工作場所審查等等，還有包括目前建照取得等等，我們希望努力在第三季完成第一座可移動式加氫示範站。"],["邱委員志偉：這是一個趨勢，而且是不可逆的，未來大概2、30年之內，可能所有的燃油車輛都會被淘汰。我們有設定這個長期目標，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：中油的轉型策略有一個研究，有不同的模式（pattern），造成的衝擊也不一樣。比方說，如果單純禁售純燃油車，當然對你們的衝擊比較小；如果氫能車未來成為主流，這個衝擊是第二；如果全面電動化，燃油、油氣混合一律禁止，那個衝擊最大。部裡面對這三種可能的模式，有沒有政策的相關選擇？"],["王部長美花：相關車輛的，我們確實跟交通部跨部會討論，也確實有參考國際上對於相關車輛的方向。中油的部分，我們大概有幾個方向，一個就是減少煉製，然後增加石化的供應鏈。第二、中油在電池的部分，他們正在研發軟碳，做得也還不錯，我們也會持續請中油多做研發。第三、氫能車我們確實有請中油跟國際廠商合作，目前他們跟日商在做一個前期的評估。中油未來面臨整個能源轉型，它要做的事情確實非常多。"],["邱委員志偉：這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇，中油，這三種策略你們比較偏好哪一種作為轉型的主要策略？"],["李董事長順欽：以中油的立場，我們當然prefer往氫能發展，這樣我們的加油站可以順利轉成加氫站，對中油的業務、商業模式應該相對比較好。"],["邱委員志偉：所以目前的轉型策略還是希望氫能車能夠成為主流，你們要廣設加氫站，這是你們未來轉型的策略，那你們在氫能的部分到底做了哪些準備？"],["李董事長順欽：除了在加氫站之外，事實上我們在產氫包括藍氫或未來的綠氫，在整個輸送過程中，包括新的劑量還有一些相關的超低溫材質等等，我們的研究單位都有跟業界在合作。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的轉型策略到底對氫能投入多少研究？你們的時程是不是有一個完整的規劃報告，可以提供給我們？"],["李董事長順欽：好，我們再提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：最後再請教一個問題，你們在油氣探勘開發部分，國外的目標國家有幾個？"],["李董事長順欽：我們這幾年有投入6個新的礦區。"],["邱委員志偉：在哪些國家？"],["李董事長順欽：包括索馬利蘭、墨西哥、澳洲有兩個，包括巴拉圭還有印尼East Seram。"],["邱委員志偉：投入這6個國家，這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的？"],["李董事長順欽：都是合作的模式。"],["邱委員志偉：那這6個新礦區已經開始產油了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：沒有，現在其實很多是剛通過，我們在做一些探勘。"],["邱委員志偉：這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本？"],["李董事長順欽：這一部分恐怕我們要再整理相關資料再跟委員報告。"],["邱委員志偉：我的時間到了，我也不能占用太多時間。"],["主席：請董事長再準備一些資料給邱志偉委員。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["主席：黃國昌委員，不好意思，我剛有宣告要休息5分鐘，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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總共60億。 是。 這個風場建設希望達到國產化, 台電、中油、海勝風場、島主有辦法做到國產化嗎?"},{"start":197.289,"end":224.805,"text":"這個委員很關心齁那這個問題我們會盡量來討論那最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有相關的供應鏈齁再做交換一次要讓你們兄弟公司中鋼啊嗷嗷待哺這個新達海基為了追求國產化那國產化學習期限高當然會造成成本會比較高如果你那兄弟公司都不相挺"},{"start":226.072,"end":227.175,"text":"與新大海基合作。"},{"start":238.305,"end":263.183,"text":"我跟委員報告這塊事實上我們站在中油投資的立場所以我們其實也在要求要依照相關的規定國廠化的比例60%這個一定要符合規定我是建議啦一樣是國營事業要小廳啦謝謝伯父你應該做一個這個協調者應該做一個整合者怎麼樣把國營事業力量結合在一起好謝謝委員這個我們後續會來處理另外這個"},{"start":268.453,"end":291.122,"text":"全球這種燃油車慢慢是希望這個能夠淘汰對不對競售燃油車那這個未來這個替代性能源或者是這個乾淨能源中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向去轉型做了哪些準備不要說氫能氫能的部分未來可能會有很多的加氫戰這部分這個"},{"start":294.201,"end":320.169,"text":"中油有沒有相關的準備?跟委員報告事實上嘉青站剛剛也回應過我們希望我們這個得標的廠商令德能夠在6月份能夠進來然後我們希望在第三季再完成相關的別的工作場所省的等等還有包括目前這個建造取得等等這些我們希望努力在第三季"},{"start":321.26,"end":347.667,"text":"能夠第一座可移動式的嘉青市販站這是一個趨勢而且是不可逆的所以未來大概二三十年之內可能所有的燃油的車輛都會被淘汰我們也有設定這個目標長期的目標所以按照你們這個中油轉型策略有一個研究有不同的模式"},{"start":350.95,"end":352.591,"text":"對於這三種可能的模式有沒有政策相關的選擇?"},{"start":381.77,"end":384.833,"text":"在這個相關車輛的我們確實跟交通部在跨部會在討論那這個也確實有參考國際性對那個相關的這個車輛的部分的這個方向那中油的部分我們大概幾個方向然後一個就是減少這個這個鏈制然後增加石化的供應鏈那第二個呢對這個"},{"start":406.591,"end":412.894,"text":"中油在電池的部分他們在研發那個軟碳那這個做的也還不錯那我們也會持續請中油再多做研發的部分那輕能車我們確實請中油來跟國際的廠商來合作那目前他們跟日商有在做一個前期的一個評估那等等的這個部分我們確實中油部分未來面臨整個大的能源轉型上他要做的事情確實非常多"},{"start":436.326,"end":460.248,"text":"我剛剛說這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇,中油這三種策略你們比較偏好作為轉型的主要策略以中油的立場當然是我們能夠往氫能發展那這樣子我的加油站可以順利轉成加薪站對中油的業務對中油的商業模式應該相對比較好"},{"start":461.48,"end":467.875,"text":"這是站在中油的立場所以目前轉型策略還是往輕能車如果成為主流你們廣設這個加薪站"},{"start":470.493,"end":493.304,"text":"這是你們未來轉型的策略,那你這個氫能的部分到底做了哪些的準備?氫能當然除了在加氫站之外,那事實上我們在產氫包括是藍氫或是未來的綠氫那當然包括在整個輸送的過程中包括氫的劑量還有包括它一些相關的"},{"start":493.764,"end":506.469,"text":"朝迪文才子等等這些事實上我們的研究單位都有跟業界在做研究合作。 在轉型策略對氫能的到底投入多少研究,你們10層是不是有一個完整的規劃報告可以提供給我?"},{"start":506.469,"end":508.49,"text":"在30秒鐘再請教一個問題,你們在這個油氣碳供應開發部分國外的目標國家有幾個?"},{"start":517.468,"end":522.271,"text":"我們這幾年又投入6個新的礦區 包括索馬利蘭、墨西哥、澳洲、巴拉圭、印尼、伊斯特薩蘭 這就是我們有住宿的國家"},{"start":536.936,"end":563.913,"text":"這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的?都是合作的模式。那這些6個新的礦區到底已經開始產油了嗎?沒有,現在其實很多是剛開始通過之後我們再做一些攤攤。這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本?這一部分我們再整理相關的資料再跟委員來做報告。時間到了,我也不能再用太多時間。"},{"start":564.721,"end":565.002,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}