{"error":false,"id":["149902"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149902,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149902","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T11:44:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T11:57:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135b4275d5605847e559acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a61932705a9722646d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:44:25 - 11:57:24","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":966,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時44分）主席、各位列席委員。主席，我想請央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：顏委員早。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁早。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我想請教，賴總統在擔任行政院長的時候推動了數位身分證，當時號稱數位身分證就是一把萬能的鑰匙，集結了自然人憑證、駕照、健保卡、國民年金、勞保、育兒津貼、交通監理、車籍資料、稅務通關、護照簽證、公投連署、生前契約，這些東西就以「一卡萬能」這樣子來形容，但是後面衍生出來的資安問題，在當時，包括中研院的學者還有大眾都連署反對，所以行政院在110年（2021年）時由蘇貞昌院長做出一個暫緩換發作業的決定。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員說的沒有錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：而且他說必須要等到制定專法跟取得社會共識才可以再辦理，我想要請教的是，當時這麼重大的一個科技政策，為什麼在實行之前沒有先取得社會共識，也沒有做有效的安全規畫跟資安的資訊評估？可不可以請總裁來做個說明？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，委員講的前面這一段，基本上我坦白地跟委員報告，這一段我們不曉得，我們中央銀行的角色是什麼呢？我們是因為剛好這個是內政部要推的嘛！"],["顏委員寬恒：好……"],["楊總裁金龍：當內政部推到一半的時候，他們本來是找私人的廠商，但是他們後來才發現，他們可能做不下去，要中央銀行來做，所以中央銀行就承接了這個工作。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我來講啦！當時內政部徐國勇部長強調這個晶片都是由台積電來產製，請我們的國人要安心，大眾要放心，不會有個資外洩的可能，單憑是台積電做的、一個部長的保證，就絕對沒有資訊的漏洞嗎？我跟你講，就像現在已經有89%的國家使用數位身分證。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：就連法律最完整的愛沙尼亞跟德國，他們都發生駭客的大規模攻擊，包括在愛沙尼亞造成銀行跟政府的停擺。德國在2018年也被發現有資安漏洞，駭客可以假冒本人來存取網路的資訊跟服務，我們現在手上的資料，像德國，反對的理由裡面，德國也只有不到三成的人有啟用這種晶片功能，就是我們的這個數位身分證。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以在這樣子的一個情形下，在我國，我們臺灣也沒有專法，也沒有專責機構來做監理，來做後面的管轄，然後就倉促地提出數位身分證，造成了我們現在被這個廠商求償，到底這一次我們又要賠多少錢？這些錢，這些被求償的金額是不是又要民眾買單？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我瞭解，這個是內政部在主導的。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以內政部主導，因為這裡面也……"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我跟你說，雖然是內政部主導，我想要問的是，公共工程委員會吳主委在備詢的時候有提到，這件事情一定要有人負責，但是不會到院長層級，那他講的不會到院長層級，也不會是總統，那會是誰？是內政部嗎？如果是內政部部長徐國勇，他已經卸任了，當時作決策的徐國勇部長已經卸任了，那現在的林右昌部長可以負責嗎？因為決策不是林右昌做的。我想要請教總裁，那誰要負責？你會不會危險？我替你煩惱啦！你有危險嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員要問的這個問題，我個人真的沒辦法回答……"],["顏委員寬恒：因為這個牽涉的部分，這麼講，全臺灣2,300萬人，假設今天數位身分證已經上路了，不曉得碰到什麼情況，資安的漏洞或者是裡面的一些資訊被駭客攻擊，全部的國人都會遭受這樣子的攻擊，所以我在想這是一個非常嚴重的問題，這些機具我們當時採購了多少錢？可不可以告訴我？"],["楊總裁金龍：我請我們的印製廠來跟您回答好嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：報告委員，當初我們的機器設備採購是3.79億。"],["顏委員寬恒：接近4億嘛！對不對？是不是？"],["喻總經理家聲：對，3.79億。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，後來不是有附了一個暫緩計畫，之後付了多少錢？"],["喻總經理家聲：暫緩期間機器折舊加上我們暫緩期間的費用，總共付了2.02億，就是我們……"],["顏委員寬恒：3.9，2.2……"],["喻總經理家聲：2.02億。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，3.9，那就4億多嘛！"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，3.79是投資的錢……"],["顏委員寬恒：5億多嘛！那現在要賠多少錢？"],["喻總經理家聲：現在這個2.02億是內政部已經支付給我們的。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，後來跟廠商的這個……"],["喻總經理家聲：這是我們跟下游的材料供應商之間，因為契約中止以後，結算的金額是最高2.8億。"],["顏委員寬恒：2.8億，所以總共金額多少？到底多少？"],["喻總經理家聲：實際上2.8億還要看有一些剩餘的材料，算完才知道。"],["顏委員寬恒：不管怎麼樣這些錢是誰要賠的？"],["喻總經理家聲：我們給廠商這個錢會跟內政部去要。"],["顏委員寬恒：還是我們賠嘛！還是由稅金來賠嘛！對不對？"],["喻總經理家聲：因為我們是承接內政部的業務。"],["顏委員寬恒：編預算去還嘛！"],["喻總經理家聲：所以這個我們要跟我們的業主內政部那邊去要這個錢。"],["顏委員寬恒：總而言之，政府一個錯誤的政策、一個倉促，然後沒有做完整規劃，當初為什麼要執行這個政策？是為了誰？可不可以告訴我？"],["喻總經理家聲：當初我們是承接內政部委託我們做身分證的製發作業，那……"],["顏委員寬恒：是你們委託嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：不是，內政部委託我們來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：你們接受內政部委託嘛？"],["喻總經理家聲：對，我們接受內政部委託。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，所以就是一個錯誤的政策讓我們虧了這些錢，假設這個政策真的上路了，拿到了身分證，那我們資安的疑慮或者說受到科技駭客的攻擊，後面所造成的這種真的是無法想像，所以我想在這邊我們要告訴各位……","接下來，我聽到陳院長說這些設備在未推行前還可以用在別的地方，我可不可以請教總裁，這些設備如果我們沒有去執行，那它可以用在什麼地方？"],["喻總經理家聲：跟委員報告一下……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們印製廠的廠長，他……"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼？聽不懂。"],["喻總經理家聲：這個設備是我們一般在製作高階的卡片用的，所以一般的信用卡是不會用到這個設備，一般是政府的卡片正卡會用……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們可以發行臺灣的數位貴賓卡，是不是？是不是這個概念？"],["喻總經理家聲：我們現在考慮的就是沒有晶片的……"],["顏委員寬恒：那能夠提供什麼服務啊？就是說我們要發行的話，如果發行數位貴賓卡可以提供什麼服務給持卡人？"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，我們現在可以做卡片，沒問題，這個設備可以做卡片，做高階的……"],["顏委員寬恒：可以做啦！但不知道要做什麼，對不對？所以這套設備是不是放在那裡，對不對？就放著。"],["喻總經理家聲：有跟內政部建議過，可以做不含晶片的身分證卡片，這可以做的，沒問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是回到傳統的身分證卡片嘛！不是這樣子嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，那個卡片比現在磁卡的防偽層級會更高。"],["顏委員寬恒：這不是兒戲嗎？對不對？所以我想這真的非常荒謬啦！","好，因為時間不多，我接著再請教總裁。現今在我們臺灣的外籍移工非常多，他們跨國匯款的管道有幾種？可不可以快速地告訴我有幾種？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在目前有兩種，第一個就是小額匯款公司，現在是金管會准許的一些匯款公司匯款；另外一個就是仲介，仲介是代結匯，這兩個管道。"],["顏委員寬恒：剩下兩個管道？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對，這兩個管道。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，原來的那一些私立就業服務機構算不算在裡面？"],["楊總裁金龍：那個就應該是不算了。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在不算了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是不是有合法的私立就業服務機構1,680家，有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是……它是代結匯的。"],["顏委員寬恒：代結匯沒有錯嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，那是屬於代結匯……"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，對，沒有錯，那個是當時87年的時候，勞委會的函釋統一開放的嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：到91年8月份就廢止了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是我們中央銀行還是有法源依據延期……"],["顏委員寬恒：我知道，就是讓它沿用一直用到現在嘛！對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，那我直接講重點，就是一年的匯兌金額大概是900億，不是說大概900億，如果一個外籍移工以1萬塊臺幣的話，金額會到……每個月喔！每個月匯1萬塊回去故鄉給他們的家人，這樣子人數75萬人，然後算起來大概一年是900億。但是目前111年匯兌的額度不到250，所以七成多的這些匯兌金額跑到哪裡去？地下匯兌？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們提供你比較準確的數據，去年匯出去42.4億美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，42……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，42.4億美金。113年1月匯出3.7億美金，平均每人匯出是490塊美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是啦！你這樣講，你跟我說去年匯多少就好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：去年就是42.4億。"],["顏委員寬恒：42.4億是美金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：是美金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：這樣是臺幣多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：臺幣大概……"],["顏委員寬恒：就一千多億了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：就一千多億了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：那為什麼……"],["楊總裁金龍：3乘4，12，就將近1,300億。"],["顏委員寬恒：去年一整年就1,300億？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，大概將近1,300億。"],["顏委員寬恒：真的嗎？你資料可不可以提供給我？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們可以提供給你。"],["顏委員寬恒：為什麼我們的差異會那麼大？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為你是用估算說每一個人多少，我們是他實際匯出去……"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦！當然啦！","那我再跟你講地下匯兌的部分，我們都知道只要有漏洞詐騙集團是無所不在，把你騙出去、把你騙進來都有……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個我們知道。"],["顏委員寬恒：他只要你的錢啦！就這樣子啦！我跟你講，這些外籍移工他們是非常辛苦，他們賺的都是辛苦錢，而且來到異鄉，我們也希望能夠保障外籍移工有一個安全更好的工作環境，包括他們的薪資所得，我們希望他能夠得到非常安全的環境，讓他們辛苦工作得到的這些報酬，能夠很完整的回到他們的家鄉、回到他們親人的手上，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，好。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，這些部分再請你提供給我。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝，因為時間到了。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們會提供，委員謝謝你。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝顏委員。","接著我們請羅明才召委，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.76471875,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.31596875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.42096875,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.414718750000002,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.44221875,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.415343750000005,"end":51.533468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.908468750000004,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.26284375,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.494093750000005,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.679718750000006,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.60721875,"end":67.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.32409375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.24346875,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.24721875,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.79534375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.03159375000001,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.61784375,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.45284375000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.50221875000001,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.99971875000001,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.09096875,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.97534375,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.92846875,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.97034375,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.09409375,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.39159375,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.89784375000002,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.53909375,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.30971875,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.13034375,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.04096875000002,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.85846875000001,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.53346875000003,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.72721875000002,"end":216.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.84909375,"end":222.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.40971875000002,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.71346875,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.41721875000002,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.78846875000002,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.23471875,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.10346875000002,"end":242.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.40659375,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.14846875,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.33284375000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.64471875000004,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.05721875,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.90034375,"end":269.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.42346875000004,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.77346875,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.68034375,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.69721875,"end":273.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.37221875,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.37159375000005,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.43909375000004,"end":278.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.63721875000005,"end":279.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.90721875,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.42596875000004,"end":283.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.83471875000004,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.60659375,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.41221875,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.04909375,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.45409375,"end":291.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.74909375000004,"end":292.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.35221875,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.08596875,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.45721875000004,"end":296.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.67659375,"end":298.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.36409375,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.43159375000005,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.61721875,"end":298.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.65096875,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.66784375000003,"end":298.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.76909375,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.78596875,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.79784375,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.81471875,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.94409375000004,"end":327.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.13284375,"end":320.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.63909375000003,"end":320.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.69784375,"end":323.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.33471875000004,"end":324.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.27096875,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.55784375,"end":331.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.81034375,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.81409375000004,"end":340.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.46721875000003,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.73284375000003,"end":347.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.87534375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.12846875,"end":348.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.05659375000005,"end":352.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.88284375,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.00909375000003,"end":362.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.89409375,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.56471875,"end":367.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.82159375000003,"end":368.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.05346875000004,"end":369.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.01096875,"end":372.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.38221875000005,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.34409375,"end":372.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.49596875000003,"end":374.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.23409375,"end":380.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.66409375,"end":380.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.25846875,"end":380.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.44409375000004,"end":381.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.77721875000003,"end":384.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.08471875000004,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.80596875000003,"end":389.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.72534375000004,"end":390.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.99096875000004,"end":393.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.30284375,"end":400.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.17534375,"end":399.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.38596875,"end":403.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.19596875,"end":405.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.95909375,"end":409.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.57909375,"end":408.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.99659375000005,"end":411.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.96659375,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.47284375000004,"end":414.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.22784375000003,"end":414.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.24471875,"end":414.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.29534375000003,"end":414.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.34596875000005,"end":414.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.37971875000005,"end":417.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.91096875000005,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.68721875,"end":422.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.44596875,"end":427.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.03596875000005,"end":427.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.40284375000005,"end":429.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.49971875,"end":433.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.25846875,"end":440.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.80659375000005,"end":454.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.28909375,"end":459.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.16159375,"end":465.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.94971875000005,"end":477.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.44159375000004,"end":478.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.23846875000004,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.31846875,"end":483.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.95971875000004,"end":486.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.26284375000006,"end":488.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.39346875,"end":489.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.35534375000003,"end":490.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.57034375,"end":493.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.88221875000005,"end":497.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.01659375,"end":500.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.66596875000005,"end":506.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.71971875,"end":506.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.82096875,"end":507.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.07409375000003,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.27659375,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.22159375,"end":511.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.69784375000006,"end":515.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.96721875,"end":516.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.0009687500001,"end":516.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.4228437500001,"end":517.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.4565937500001,"end":517.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.6884687500001,"end":521.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.14346875,"end":523.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.67909375,"end":527.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.78409375,"end":529.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.9734687499999,"end":530.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.56409375,"end":537.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.85409375,"end":538.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.4740937500001,"end":539.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.70596875,"end":548.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.41784375,"end":552.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.23159375,"end":559.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.9484687500001,"end":555.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.99409375,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.2547187499999,"end":569.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.81534375,"end":569.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.83221875,"end":570.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.52409375,"end":570.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.62534375,"end":571.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.65909375,"end":571.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.5365937500001,"end":576.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.68784375,"end":577.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.3584687499999,"end":582.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.0334687500001,"end":578.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.2309687500001,"end":590.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.31534375,"end":583.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.93909375,"end":588.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.39471875,"end":589.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.23409375,"end":603.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.6672187500001,"end":600.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.1940937500001,"end":609.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.37471875,"end":611.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.5347187500001,"end":612.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.27284375,"end":615.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.47471875,"end":620.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.99721875,"end":623.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.91659375,"end":636.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.4309687500001,"end":626.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.5490937500001,"end":627.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.30284375,"end":637.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.74159375,"end":641.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.24284375,"end":642.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.3059687500001,"end":644.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.9765937500001,"end":650.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.0559687500001,"end":657.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.29096875,"end":675.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.6047187500001,"end":675.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.6384687500001,"end":675.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.72284375,"end":675.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.7397187500001,"end":675.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.7565937500001,"end":676.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.24596875,"end":678.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.2665937500001,"end":681.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.7053437500001,"end":679.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.2790937500001,"end":681.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.8484687499999,"end":683.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.88221875,"end":682.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.58659375,"end":685.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":685.3415937500001,"end":687.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.4340937500001,"end":697.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.4678437500002,"end":688.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.5434687500001,"end":690.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.0790937500001,"end":691.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.83784375,"end":696.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.77846875,"end":700.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.4197187500001,"end":698.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.6809687500001,"end":710.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.03846875,"end":722.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.1728437500001,"end":713.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.5690937500001,"end":717.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.26034375,"end":721.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.4709687500001,"end":721.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.55534375,"end":721.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.6015937500001,"end":723.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.9897187500001,"end":727.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.44471875,"end":728.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.8159687500001,"end":762.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.3884687500001,"end":736.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.95346875,"end":739.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.3959687500001,"end":742.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.46596875,"end":753.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.8915937500001,"end":758.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.4565937500001,"end":762.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.0972187500001,"end":765.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.0209687500001,"end":766.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.4384687500001,"end":769.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.0190937500001,"end":779.87534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.852,"end":6.756,"text":"主席各位列席委員主席我想請央行我們的楊總裁楊總裁楊總裁早總裁早總裁我想請教賴總統在擔任行政院長的時候推動了數位身份證那當時號稱數位身份證就是一把萬能的鑰匙那"},{"start":28.95,"end":43.619,"text":"擊結了自然人憑證、駕照、健保卡、國民年金、勞保、育兒津貼、交通監理、車籍資料、稅務通關、護照、簽證、公投連署、申請契約"},{"start":45.32,"end":63.109,"text":"這些東西就像一隻一個一卡萬能的這樣子的形容但是後面衍生出來的這個資安的問題在當時包括中研院的學者還有大眾連署反對所以在行政院110年2021年由當時的蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":68.977,"end":82.592,"text":"來做出一個暫緩換發作業做出這樣子的決定所以委員說的沒有錯而且他說必須要等到制定專法跟取得社會共識才可以再辦理那我想要請教就是說當時為什麼在"},{"start":85.175,"end":106.451,"text":"這麼重大的一個科技政策然後呢要來在實行之前沒有先取得社會共識也沒有做有效的安全的規劃跟資安的一個資訊的評估當時那可不可以請總裁你來做個說明那報告委員至於就是說"},{"start":109,"end":118.216,"text":"委員在講的就是說前面這一段 前面這一段基本上我坦白的跟委員報告這一段我們不曉得"},{"start":119.062,"end":119.222,"text":"那個總裁好"},{"start":148.214,"end":162.112,"text":"我來講啦齁當時人力政部徐國勇部長強調說這個晶片都是由台積電來產製請我們的國人要安心大眾要放心不會有各自外洩的可能"},{"start":163.194,"end":190.034,"text":"是單憑就因為是台積電做的是一個部長的保證就絕對沒有這個資訊的漏洞嗎我跟你講就像現在已經有89%的國家使用數位身份證就連法律最完整的愛沙尼亞跟德國他們都發生這個駭客的大規模攻擊包括愛沙尼亞造成銀行跟政府的停擺"},{"start":191.115,"end":204.528,"text":"德國在2018年也被發現有資安漏洞還可以假冒本人來存取這個網路的資訊跟服務連我們現在手上的資料就是說像德國"},{"start":206.672,"end":234.069,"text":"反對的理由裡面包括德國也只有不到三成的人有啟用這種晶片功能就是我們的這個數位身份證所以在這樣子的一個在我國我們台灣也沒有專法也沒有專責機構來做監理來做後面的一個管轄然後就倉促的提出數位身份證那造成了我們現在的一個"},{"start":235.27,"end":244.739,"text":"跟貝貝這個廠商球場那我們到底這一次我們要賠多少錢這些錢這些對球場的金額是不是又要民眾買單"},{"start":248.323,"end":269.734,"text":"這個據我瞭解是因為這個是內政部在主導的啦所以內政部主導那既然是內政部主導但是我想要問的就是說工程會主委工程委員會主委吳主委他在備詢的時候有提到說這件事情一定有人負責但是"},{"start":270.796,"end":285.051,"text":"午後到院長成績是那他講的不會到院長成績也不會是總統那會是誰是內政部嗎那如果內政部部長徐國勇他已經卸任了對當時做決策的這個這個"},{"start":287.478,"end":311.591,"text":"徐國隆部長他已經卸任了那現在的林佑昌部長他可以負責嗎?啊如果因為決策不是林佑昌做的那我想要請教總裁那誰要負責?那你會不會危險?我聽你煩惱啦你會危險嗎?委員講這個問這個問題啊我真的我是我個人真的沒辦法回答"},{"start":312.984,"end":333.695,"text":"因為這個牽涉的部分要這麼講全台灣2300萬人如果假設這個今天數位身份證已經上路了那碰到不曉得碰到什麼情況資安的漏洞啊或者是裡面一些資訊的被駭客攻擊啊那全部的國人都會遭受這樣子的一個攻擊那這些所以我在想這是一個"},{"start":334.861,"end":338.185,"text":"我來請我們的那個那個那個硬製廠來跟您回答好嗎報告委員當初我們的機器設備採購是3.79億接近4億嘛對不對"},{"start":356.058,"end":366.56,"text":"是不是對3.79OK那後來不是有負了一個暫緩計畫之後負了多少錢暫緩期間機器折舊加上我們暫緩期間的費用總共負了2.02億就是我們3.092.22.02OK3.09那就4億多嗎沒有3.095點多嘛5億多嘛那現在要賠多少錢"},{"start":381.823,"end":403.817,"text":"那現在這個2.021是內政部已經支付給我們的不是,那後來跟廠商的這個...跟廠商就是我們跟下游的供應商之間,材料供應商那因為次約終止以後結算的金額是最高2.8億2.8億,所以總共金額到底多少?實際上2.8億還要看有一些剩餘的材料這些錢不管怎麼樣這些錢是誰要賠的?"},{"start":406.004,"end":428.72,"text":"那我們給廠商這個錢還是我們賠嘛 對不對還是由稅金來賠嘛 對不對用月算裡面的月算去還嘛所以這個我們要跟我們的業主內政部那邊去要這個錢總而言之就是說這個政府一個錯誤的政策一個倉促然後沒有做完整規劃的就是一個當初為什麼要執行這個政策是為了誰可不可以告訴我"},{"start":429.737,"end":456.655,"text":"當初我們是承接內政部委託我們做身份證的製作,自發作業是你們委託嗎?我們接受內政部委託嗎?對,我們接受內政部委託所以一個錯誤的政策讓我們虧了這些錢那假設這個政策真的上路了,拿到了這個身份證讓我們資安的疑慮或者說接受到這種科技駭客的攻擊所後面造成的這種真的是無法想像"},{"start":460.217,"end":478.404,"text":"在這邊我們要告訴各位接下來我們聽到陳院長說這些設備在未推行前還可以用在別的地方我可以請教總裁這些設備如果沒有做我們的這個沒有去執行那他可以用在什麼地方跟委員報告一下"},{"start":484.248,"end":507.567,"text":"這個設備我們是一般在製作高階的卡片用的所以一般的信用卡是不會用到這個設備一般是政府的卡片證卡會用到所以我們可以發行臺灣的數位貴賓卡是不是是不是這個概念我們現在考慮的就是沒有晶片的那能夠提供什麼服務啊對啊就是說我們要發行的話如果發行數位貴賓卡可以提供什麼服務給持卡人"},{"start":508.237,"end":515.6,"text":"沒有我們現在可以做卡片沒問題這個設備可以做卡片做高階的房子有跟內政部建議過可以做不含晶片的身份證卡片"},{"start":522.419,"end":537.957,"text":"這可以做的沒問題阿就是回到傳統的傳統的卡片身份證嗎不是這樣子嗎那卡片比現在紫卡的防偽成績會更高這不是兒戲嗎對不對所以我想這真的非常荒謬啦好那時間不多啦我接著請教就是說我們"},{"start":540.76,"end":567.193,"text":"再請教總裁現今外籍移工我們在臺灣的外籍移工非常多那因為他們這個跨國匯款的管道有幾種可不可以快速告訴我有幾種現在目前有兩種第一個就是小額匯款公司現在是金管會准許一些的匯款公司匯款另外一個就是中介中介是貸結匯這兩個管道"},{"start":569.867,"end":580.32,"text":"身上的管道原來的那些私立就業服務機構算不算在裡面?現在不算了嗎?可是那個不是有合法的私立就業服務機構有1680家"},{"start":585.659,"end":602.977,"text":"應該是應該1680家他是待結會的對待結會沒有錯嘛那是屬於待結會OKOK對對沒有錯那個是在91年的不是那個是當時87年的時候勞委會的韓式同意開放的嘛到91年那個8月份就廢止了嘛"},{"start":603.918,"end":619.551,"text":"欸會會但是我們我們中央銀行還是有那個什麼法人預計我知道就是讓他沿用一直用到現在對不對好那我直接講重點就是說一年吶吼一年的會對的金額吼大概是900億"},{"start":621.533,"end":641.793,"text":"如果以一個外籍移工以一萬塊台幣的話的金額會到每個月每個月會一萬塊回去故鄉給他們的家人那這樣子人數七十五萬人然後算起來大概一年是九百億但是目前一百一十一年會對的額度不到兩百五"},{"start":644.06,"end":652.09,"text":"所以7成多7成多的這些會對金金額跑到哪裡去我們提供你那個比較準確的數據的"},{"start":658.396,"end":673.562,"text":"去年匯出去42.4億美金一百一十三年一月匯出三點七億美金平均每人匯出是四百九十塊美金"},{"start":679.224,"end":700.538,"text":"臺幣臺幣臺幣"},{"start":700.708,"end":716.905,"text":"好,我們可以聽為什麼差異又那麼大因為你是用估算說每一個人多少每一個人對啦對啦當然啦好,那我再跟你講就是地下會對的部分我們都知道齁只要有漏洞詐騙集團是無所不在的是是是"},{"start":717.005,"end":743.673,"text":"所以我怎麼把你騙出去把你騙進來都有啦他只是要你的錢啦就這樣子啦所以我們我跟你講這些外籍移工他們是非常 他們賺的都是辛苦錢而且來到異鄉那我們就是要保障我們也希望能夠保障他們外籍移工有一個安全更好的一個工作環境包括他們的薪資所得我們希望他能夠得到一個非常安全非常安全的這樣子一個環境"},{"start":745.093,"end":760.276,"text":"讓他們的辛苦的工作的得到的這些報酬能夠很完整的回到他們的家鄉回到他們的親人的手上好不好那請總裁這些部分再請你提供給我好那我們就好謝謝因為時間到了謝謝謝謝你謝謝顏委員現在我們請魯明台召委謝謝"},{"start":778.089,"end":779.64,"text":"主席各位出列習慣當然好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}