{"error":false,"id":["149907"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149907,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149907","日期":"2024-03-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-14T11:19:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-14T11:26:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231354b92155eb0414e3f51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6db806415cfe579a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:19:02 - 11:26:55","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":820,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長及中油董事長。"],["主席：請部長跟李董事長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，延續昨天質詢的話題，臺鹽綠能去年大虧了2.7億，對於綠能政策我支持，但我反對用國家的資源去養派系權貴，讓特定的系統上下其手，這是我昨天在質詢部長的時候所要表明的立場。但我昨天一直在問這件事情的時候，部長看到這張圖，然後一直說什麼？我引用昨天質詢的話，部長說：「我真的要講，吳國卿跟可威完全沒關係，是另一個可威，這個對他太不公平，這完全錯誤，委員，你可能要先回去澄清一下。」我昨天在質詢的時候從頭到尾都還沒有提到吳國卿，結果部長兩次跟我說我搞錯了，要我回去澄清，我回去反省了很久，請問部長，你要我澄清什麼？"],["王部長美花：跟委員致歉，之前有在講可寧衛那個部分，因為有人確實把一些……"],["黃委員國昌：有人是我嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我沒有講委員。"],["黃委員國昌：我PPT上是這樣寫嗎？"],["王部長美花：好，我……"],["黃委員國昌：你要不要道歉？"],["王部長美花：我跟委員致歉，這個部分因為確實之前有人講錯了，所以我才會……"],["黃委員國昌：有人講錯算到我頭上喔？"],["王部長美花：不是，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我昨天PPT是不是長成這個樣子？"],["王部長美花：昨天委員第一次拿出這個圖，所以今天委員如果要問的話，我們可以再跟委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：我昨天的圖是不是長這樣？上面有哪一個字寫錯？"],["王部長美花：這邊相關的人事的部分，等一下我們可以說明，這個不是委員昨天口頭講的這些問題，我們可以跟委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：你昨天看了這個圖，不是要我回去搞清楚，要我澄清，說對他不公平？"],["王部長美花：我要跟委員講的是，吳國卿去當臺鹽綠能的這個部分，其實是我們拜託他去的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你是不是拜託他去，那是下一個層次的問題。我在做質詢資料的時候自我要求很嚴格，我所有的東西都有出處，都有所本，所以昨天部長在備詢臺上這樣指控我說，這完全錯誤，要我回去澄清一下。"],["王部長美花：我剛才已經跟委員致歉了，委員未來要問這一些，委員可以事先給我們，我們可以來做回應。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，我們繼續往下問。吳國卿本來的職務是什麼？"],["王部長美花：他是在國營會當組長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他對於綠能有什麼樣的專業？"],["王部長美花：他非常懂，他督導我們中油、台電，特別是台電的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：所以針對有關於臺鹽綠能的部分，部長有信心他下去當總經理以後可以好好整頓嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們就是拜託他幫我們處理。"],["黃委員國昌：今天部長表現了這樣的誠意，我就跟部長講，我從臺鹽綠能、從當地所收到的檢舉內容，我再說一次，我的立場很簡單，我不允許國家的資源讓特定的派系權貴上下其手，這是我的立場。好，具體的看，我為什麼說臺鹽綠能被派系上下其手？當初引進這四大民股，我知道經濟部反對，但臺鹽綠能董事長膽子很大，經濟部反對他也不管，就引進了四大民股，昨天部長有講到，臺鹽綠能虧損很重要的一個原因就是在嘉義義竹的案場嘛，對吧？嘉義義竹的案場提列了很多呆帳。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["黃委員國昌：有很多現在要也要不到。"],["王部長美花：他們現在在仲裁中。"],["黃委員國昌：是，結果引進的民股蔡清旭，就是跟臺南在那邊搞爐碴光電的同一個人，他們都是做下包商，錢都拿走，然後結果是什麼？他們在賺錢，臺鹽綠能在虧錢；一模一樣，土地開發的部分，拿著臺鹽綠能的招牌在外面收地，這個鴻暉國際，結果最後發現原來陳啟昱他兒子在那邊任職，土地開發整合費全部都賺到鴻暉的口袋裡面去，他們在賺錢，國家在虧錢，有這種道理喔？這就是我看不下去的地方啊！"],["王部長美花：臺鹽綠能之前這個部分，我們也整理了，再過來就是需要檢調來澄清，所以這個部分，我們也送給檢調了。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個部分，刑事犯罪，第二個吳國卿的部分，部長，你信任他，拜託他去當總經理，我希望他展現魄力，大刀闊斧的改革，我給他時間。因為他去年12月才去，我們再給他時間。主席站起來了，主席，我可以借30秒問最後一個問題嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛，謝謝。現在有上千位的民眾正在鹿港彰濱的服務中心抗議，他們抗議什麼？經濟部要在那邊設晶鼎焚化爐，他們很憤怒的事情是什麼？這件事情去年民進黨政府是由林佳龍帶著當地的立委去跟鄉親保證，絕對沒有這樣的事情，絕對不會推動，經濟部絕對不會准許在這邊設焚化爐，結果今年跳票了，我知道這件事情以後，因為彰化環保聯盟的總幹事施月英老師來找我陳情，我聽了很震驚，林佳龍做了這麼莊嚴的承諾，怎麼會跳票？部長，你要不要說明一下，到底有要蓋還是沒有要蓋？林佳龍的承諾算數還是不算數？"],["王部長美花：晶鼎是承租我們彰濱的相關土地，要做這個事情。我們針對這個部分有相關的規範，合約也有它應該要做的事情，比如說它要得到彰化縣的許可，它要跟地方溝通……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是要蓋還是不要蓋？"],["王部長美花：這一些程序，因為對我們來說，我們有相關的合約期限，在期限之前，它要去履行這些東西，如果到時候沒有辦法做的話……"],["黃委員國昌：期限到什麼時候？"],["王部長美花：相關的期限我要問同仁。"],["黃委員國昌：我只講最後一句話，當地的居民很憤怒，現在上千人已經把那個地方擠爆了，還有很多人進不去，我剛剛看到現場抗議的畫面，大家只問一件事情，政府講話算不算話？林佳龍的承諾算不算數？部長，我希望今天在那邊的經濟部同仁能夠給大家一個清楚的說明，這樣可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們都有相關的合約期程，我們會來處理。"],["主席：細部的內容是不是再請經濟部提供給黃國昌委員？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","謝謝黃國昌委員，接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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