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12:27:42","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1195,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：總裁好。總裁，在你的報告裡面，你們是採取漸進溫和的緊縮貨幣政策，所以我看到你們這個趨勢圖，大概從去年第2季開始，利率就沒有改變嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["邱委員志偉：應該是第2季嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，第2季以後。"],["邱委員志偉：到現在已經10個月了，那未來呢？未來下半年呢？還是以那個大原則？"],["楊總裁金龍：未來下半年，我也……"],["邱委員志偉：你漸進溫和的話，可能會很微緩地升息。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，中央銀行的升息跟美國的升息是不大一樣的，美國是噗！噗！噗！噗！一直上去，它要下來的時候，有些時候它就噗！噗！噗！噗！一直下來，中央銀行是不會這樣子的，我們是漸進的。那為什麼會有不一樣的地方？最主要是因為它通膨太高了，我們的通膨即使是高，但是是很溫和的，所以我們才會採溫和漸進的方法。"],["邱委員志偉：所以政策利率到現在還不是一個頂點？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就要看我們禮拜四開的理監事會。"],["邱委員志偉：如果是漸進溫和的緊縮貨幣政策，長期是應該要微升的，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：也有可能啦！"],["邱委員志偉：我這樣問你，是不是還沒有到頂點？"],["楊總裁金龍：這種利率的東西，委員講得也沒有錯，我覺得很對，慢慢地、慢慢地，也有可能就上去啊！但是也有可能上去了以後要停在那邊，然後要停很久，這也是有可能，對不對？"],["邱委員志偉：所以不會出現急升急降。"],["楊總裁金龍：就是說不會急升基本的，像美國它這樣……"],["邱委員志偉：所以比較穩健，溫和代表穩健。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這句話我們非常認同。"],["邱委員志偉：相關的不可測性會降到最低啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？"],["邱委員志偉：不可測性會降到最低。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，所謂豪宅的門檻，你會把它調降嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：豪宅的門檻是不是要調降，事實上……"],["邱委員志偉：好像媒體有報導說央行這次的理事會會討論。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的選擇性信用管制措施在每次的理監事會都會討論，我們的新聞稿也都講得很清楚，我們是滾動式的檢討，滾動式的檢討認為有可能的時候，有必要的時候，我們還是可以實施。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你們這一次理事會做成調降門檻的決議，那它的政策發動原因為何？"],["楊總裁金龍：雖然我這麼說，但是委員也不要把它誤解成我一定要調降。"],["邱委員志偉：你還沒說。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我也不會說，但是我要跟委員報告一件事，就是財政部調降有它的道理，有它的理由。"],["邱委員志偉：它的稅基增加了嘛！它稅收會增加，因為財政部的立場跟你們的立場不一樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，因為他們的理由是說104年以前，那些買房……"],["邱委員志偉：財政部那個我瞭解，我知道財政部的政策目標跟央行的政策目標是不一樣的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：你的是選擇性信用管制。"],["楊總裁金龍：它的目標不一樣，我們實施的範圍、調整的方式都跟它不大一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：對，現在還沒定論啦？"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不是都有定論，我是說中央銀行對於豪宅的門檻是根據我自己本身對房地產的情況，還有貸款的情況，我會做檢討，所以大家都覺得財政部調降下來，中央銀行要follow它，好像也不一定是這樣子啦！但是我們還是要強調，中央銀行要調整這個的時候，我們會根據自己的criteria。"],["邱委員志偉：一定要有必要性及正當性，然後社會都能夠接受，又不會影響到正常的市場秩序。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的我們都接受。"],["邱委員志偉：這幾個原則把握就好。"],["楊總裁金龍：我都接受。"],["邱委員志偉：要有必要性、正當性、即時性，然後能夠解決問題，又能夠被社會認同，又不會影響到正常的市場秩序。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員的這幾個原則我們都會記下來，事實上我們的實施也都是朝這個方向走。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外一個議題請教，在你們這個全球經濟前景不確定因素裡面，包括對中國經濟成長放緩，也特別強調他們的房地產低迷、民間消費低迷，所以國有銀行，不管是公股銀行還是私人銀行在中國如果有任何的投資，可能會受到中國經濟下行或消費不振的影響，有沒有相關的暴險金額？"],["楊總裁金龍：你說我們臺灣……"],["邱委員志偉：對，國有銀行。"],["楊總裁金龍：據我了解，因為整個追蹤是金管會啦！不過據我了解，金管會也都會publish我們的暴險有多少，我記得金管會認為它的暴險不高，都是在可控制的範圍之內。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你的理解是，金管會有相關的警示作用。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以目前不管是中國的經濟下行或消費不振，我國有銀行在中國的暴險也在可控制的範圍嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，還是可控，對。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你提到經濟零碎化跟供應鏈重組的問題，這對臺灣是利還是弊？對臺灣整體的經貿利益、經貿實力，這是利還是弊？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，你說它利嗎？也不是全部是利啦！你如果說是利……"],["邱委員志偉：那你從金額來看，我們對外貿易是成長的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是就臺灣來講，我覺得有利也有弊。"],["邱委員志偉：是利大於弊，還是弊大於利？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就要評估，但是我跟委員報告，以目前來講，到目前為止的話，我們臺灣是比較不受到影響。"],["邱委員志偉：所以是利大於弊，我可以這樣講嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我沒有……"],["邱委員志偉：你從金額來看，我們是成長的。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這是一個長期的過程，所以它在調整的過程當中，臺灣到最後是不是利大於弊，我現在不能……"],["邱委員志偉：到目前為止是利大於弊，我從數字上來看。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，到目前為止，我們還是沒有受到影響。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，主權財務基金這部分，當然已經有很多討論，當然我也覺得要用專法會比較好啦！央行一貫的政策就是用專法，最主要是錢的來源怎麼來。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你看都已經四大基金，四大基金現在都有主管機關個別在處理，沒有必要把四大基金再整合成一個主權基金，我這樣的看法，總裁，你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣子講，基本上也有委員的考量，不過以中央銀行的立場，要有主權基金的話，一定要在中央銀行之外……"],["邱委員志偉：就另外立一個專法，不是用央行法。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，另外一個專法，那個是有它的來源，它的籌資來源應該是要政府去籌資，是政府的錢，不是中央銀行的錢。"],["邱委員志偉：不要想到外匯存底。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這是我們一貫的立場。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.82284375,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.609718750000003,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.082218750000003,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.039718750000002,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.562843750000003,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.731593750000002,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.74846875,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.22471875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.32534375,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.47721875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.53159375,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.235343750000006,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.30284375,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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我們就是說我們的中央銀行的一個升息跟美國的升息是不大一樣的"},{"start":50.342,"end":51.403,"text":"所以政策利率到現在還不是一個頂點"},{"start":79.234,"end":83.384,"text":"呃這個就要看我們下我們下一次我們下禮拜四我們會理監事會"},{"start":84.758,"end":111.472,"text":"所以如果是漸進溫和的貨幣警訊社長期它是應該是要維生的對不對那現在有可能我這樣問你是不是還沒有到零點我說就是說這種利益的東西陳委員講的也沒有錯啦很很對我覺得你慢慢的慢慢的那也有可能啊就上去啊但是也有可能就是說我上去了以後呢我要停在那邊然後呢我要停很久"},{"start":112.312,"end":112.973,"text":"另外這個所謂豪宅的門檻你會把它調降嗎?"},{"start":137.233,"end":161.466,"text":"好載的門檻是不是要調降好像媒體有報了說央行這次理事會會討論我跟委員報告就是說我們的選擇性信用管制這個措施我們每次的那個理監事會都會討論我們也都新聞稿都講得很清楚我們是滾動式的檢討那滾動式的檢討認為就是說"},{"start":165.888,"end":193.062,"text":"有可能的時候呢有必要的時候呢我們還是可以實施啊那如果你們這次理事會做成調降門檻的決議那他的政策發動原因為何不過我雖然我這麼說啦但是委員你也不要把它誤解說我一定就要調降你還沒說啊我也不會我也不會說但是呢我要跟委員報告一件事就是說"},{"start":194.343,"end":198.287,"text":"財政部他調降有他調降的道理財政部的"},{"start":210.402,"end":211.082,"text":"對於這個豪宅的門檻呢"},{"start":235.335,"end":261.502,"text":"我還是根據我自己本身對房地產的情況還有貸款的情況我會做檢討所以大家都覺得就是說那個財政部調降下來中央銀行是要follow他好像也不一定是這樣子但是我們還是要強調的中央銀行要調整這個的時候我們會根據我們自己的"},{"start":263.706,"end":266.047,"text":"要必要性正當性能夠解決問題"},{"start":284.079,"end":288.461,"text":"另外一個議題請教在你們這個全球經濟前景的不確定因素裡面包括對中國這個經濟成長放緩特別講到這個他們的房地產的這個低迷啊對所以"},{"start":311.525,"end":325.702,"text":"國有銀行不管是公股銀行還是這個私人銀行在中國若有任何的投資啊這個這些可能會面臨到中國經濟下行或消費不振所說的影響有沒有相關的曝險的這個"},{"start":328.542,"end":352.752,"text":"你說我們台灣據我瞭解因為這個是整個在追蹤是那個金管會不過我據我瞭解金管會都publish他都會publish就是說我們的put選有多少不過我記得我記得我們金管會都認為就是說在他的put選不高都是在可控制的範圍之內"},{"start":354.042,"end":383.148,"text":"所以你理解是這個金管會有相關的警示作用對對對對對目前不管是經濟中國經濟下行消費不振我國有銀行在中國的曝險也在可控制的範圍嗎是是是還是有控制另外你提到經濟零碎化跟供應鏈重組的問題這對台灣是利還是弊啊對台灣是利對台灣整體的經貿利益經貿實力這是利還是弊我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":385.595,"end":385.755,"text":"﹚邱志偉﹚"},{"start":412.436,"end":426.168,"text":"但是呢 因為這是一個長期的過程嘛 所以他在調整調整的過程當中臺灣是不是到最後是利大利弊 這個我先來問問我到目前為止我們還是沒有受到影響"},{"start":432.637,"end":458.626,"text":"另外這個當然主權財務基金這部分那當然已經有很多討論我再半分鐘這個當然我也覺得要用專法會比較好啦那央行一貫的政策就是用專法嘛那最主要是錢的來源怎麼來你要對於四大基金那四大基金現在都有主管機關在個別在處理你沒有必要再把四大基金再整合成一個主權基金我是這樣看法總裁你同意嗎"},{"start":459.726,"end":488.786,"text":"對啦,不過我的委員在這樣子講我基本上呢,委員也有委員的考量不過中央銀行的立場我就說要有主權基金的話一定要在中央銀行之外就另外另一個中央銀行那他的來源,他的那個他的籌資來源應該是要政府去籌資是政府的錢,不是中央銀行的錢你沒有想到外匯存底對對對,這是我們一貫的立場"},{"start":489.806,"end":489.826,"text":"謝謝總裁"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}