{"error":false,"id":["149936"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149936,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149936","日期":"2024-03-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-15T11:50:55+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-15T12:07:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/02d71021be190f0f316f66d7f0923b3cb7179bdd53e9838df8ba9b0039caa7a6dd14c04eb8ab3b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:50:55 - 12:07:08","會議時間":"2024-03-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月19日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":1244,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時50分）謝謝主席。我先請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長好。今天早上全教總召開一個記者會，之前他們也曾經呼籲，也就是5月1號馬上來了，五一勞工放假，但是覺得有一國兩制，這是不適合的，所以一直在爭取軍公教也應該在5月1號放假，當時您曾經說這值得研議，你也覺得5月1號只有部分的人放假也是不適合的。那我想請問今年5月1號有可能嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：內政部還有人事總處有在召開會議，現在還沒有開會，所以我還不太清楚他們的結論是什麼。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以今年5月1號不可能？"],["陳院長建仁：要看開會的結論。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，如果5月1號軍公教要休假的話，其實必須要經過修法，在你任內會提出修法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：不會，所以你的承諾可能要跳票了，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我們的作法就是需要讓內政部他們開完會，開完會他們的結論出來以後……"],["王委員鴻薇：讓他們開完會，然後呢？沒有提修法，你也已經下臺一鞠躬了，所以今年5月1號沒有辦法實施，然後你也沒有辦法在你任內提出修法，我覺得你應該非常誠實的告訴我們的公教朋友，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我不曉得現在內政部他們討論的程序、結果是怎麼樣，如果在520之前有一個結論的話，我們當然是可以來修法。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果你關心，那麼就應該讓內政部來跟你報告。","另外，院長，請教一下，蘇丹紅事件現在已經圓滿解決了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在還是有在做下游流向的追蹤。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以還是在做處理，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是不能夠完全的確定目前不會再出現新的一些食材或者料理會含有蘇丹紅？"],["陳院長建仁：跟委員報告，我們在發現有蘇丹紅以後，去年12月開始我們逐批的檢查，但是以前的這一個檢驗，衛福部就回去做去年5月到12月的時候有些是抽樣檢查的就逐批檢查，現在逐批檢查的部分都已經檢查完，所以應該慢慢會收斂了。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是還在處理中，院長，在你任內最後的3個月內分別出現了重大的食安事件，而且你也承認這是系統性的事件，不是個案。另外，最近又發生讓全國都非常悲憤的1歲半男童被凌虐致死的案件。所以院長，你承不承認在你的任內，包括食安出現大的漏洞，包含社會網也出現大破洞？"],["陳院長建仁：確實有食安的系統性問題存在，然後安全網的這個部分我昨天已經講得很清楚……"],["王委員鴻薇：昨天我看到你有致歉，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：中央跟地方要一起再來檢討整個機制。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，你應不應該針對你在任內最後未竟全功，包含食安重大破洞跟社會網的重大破洞，對社會大眾致歉？"],["陳院長建仁：我昨天已經有表達過了，我是覺得……"],["王委員鴻薇：你食安問題從來沒有道歉喔！包括薛瑞元還說，蘇丹紅事件他說道歉也解決不了問題。包含虐兒事件，到現在為止薛瑞元也沒有道歉，你有道歉，我有看到，這部分我肯定。所以我想請教你，包含食安破洞跟兒虐事件的社會安全網，是不是應該跟社會大眾道歉？包含食安事件喔！"],["陳院長建仁：因為你這個食安事件有點含糊，但是就辣椒粉含有……"],["王委員鴻薇：食安事件，你跟薛瑞元一樣也不願意道歉嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：辣椒粉含有色素的這件事情，確實在整個檢驗的過程當中，我們發現以往用抽樣檢查的方式是需要再改進，而且這些需要再精進的，這個部分沒有辦法在當時就馬上來採取逐批的檢查，確實是有疏漏的地方。"],["王委員鴻薇：有疏漏，那你願不願意道歉？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以就這一個部分、有疏漏的地方，我代表整個食藥署來跟民眾說歉意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這個是比較負責任的態度。","好，時間暫停一下，請經濟部長王部長。部長、院長，其實現在全國非常關注的一件事情就是電價上漲，部長之前說為什麼電價這次漲幅要這麼高，是因為全球國際的能源上漲，是不是？"],["王部長美花：燃料成本確實是增加非常多。"],["王委員鴻薇：錯！我今天就要來戳破經濟部的謊言。電價上漲不是因為國際能源價格的大幅上漲，我給部長、院長看一下，從俄烏戰爭之後，國際的能源價格，包含天然氣、煤還有石油價格確實都在飆升，可是後來慢慢都走低了，你可以看到這張趨勢圖，包含天然氣、煤和油價都已經跌回俄烏戰爭之前的價格，所以現在的國際能源價格是緩和的，所以你現在用這個來做藉口是一個謊言。另外……"],["陳院長建仁：委員不能這樣講。"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下我再給你一個證明，再來看，過去我們常常去討論不是只有台電虧損，因為價格提高，院長知不知道台電今年還會虧損嗎？你知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：會虧損。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：那中油呢？部長應該知道，院長也知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：中油會。"],["王部長美花：中油是希望今年能夠打平。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：他說還有機會轉虧為盈，為什麼呢？以中油來說，2022年，就是俄烏戰爭開打的那一年，是年初開打，所以那一年中油就虧了2,000億以上，它合理反映了國際能源價格。接下來去年它的虧損大幅收斂，今年到現在已經賺了33億，為什麼？連中油都承認，因為國際能源價格已經趨於和緩，所以它今年要去拚轉虧為盈。所以我要告訴你，能源價格上漲不是你真正漲電價的原因，不要騙我們、不要騙社會大眾！再來……"],["王部長美花：委員，你要讓我說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，我不要再聽謊言……"],["王部長美花：我們沒有謊言，這個都是透明的。"],["王委員鴻薇：漲價唯一的原因是什麼呢？是錯誤的能源政策。"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意！"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在告訴你，剛才我已經跟你講，你講什麼能源價格上漲，那已經過去了……"],["陳院長建仁：但是虧損還在。"],["王委員鴻薇：你如果按照這樣，2022年應該大幅上漲，2023年應該大幅上漲，為什麼到2024年你才大幅上漲？為什麼？因為那兩年都有選舉嘛！是不是？所以你現在補漲嘛！"],["王部長美花：沒有啊！所以我們之前也有漲兩次的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：漲兩次，但是你不敢大幅上漲，到現在你才要補漲。為什麼說你漲價的原因是錯誤的能源政策呢？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，可不可以讓我回應？"],["王委員鴻薇：來，看一下。"],["陳院長建仁：我可不可以先回應一下？"],["王委員鴻薇：院長知道嗎？台電現在從外部購電的比例很高，而且越來越高，台電到外面去買電，以一度4.88來買光電，一度6.7來買風電，簡報這邊有寫錯字，因為風電更貴。台電賣給我們的民間、賣給我們的消費者平均一度電是3.1元，你可以看得到，風電及光電的成本遠遠高於賣電的價格，所以大家常常會講台電賣一度電虧一度電，就是這樣來的。所以我要講錯誤的能源政策……"],["王部長美花：臺灣不要發展再生能源嗎？委員，不可以這樣講，我們就是在……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們要發展再生能源，但是我們要不要保持電價合理？我們要不要調整讓消費者比較能夠接受的電價？你可以一直發展再生能源啊！你現在還有9塊錢、10塊錢在買一度電，那請問一下，電價要漲成這樣子嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有9塊、10塊……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們沒有嗎？你們現在儲電，如果有儲電的話，一度電要到9塊、10塊，你們公告的電價就是這樣子啊！所以不要說是再生能源發展，可是我們的能源結構應該讓我們的能源供應穩定，還有我們的價格能夠讓消費者或者工業、產業合理地接受……"],["陳院長建仁：我們不要漲嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：我不能接受的是，當你漲電價的時候都怪國外的能源價格上漲，我現在告訴你，人家的價格下跌啊！人家的價格下跌，為什麼我們要上漲呢？好，因為我剩下最後一點時間。我一直說我們應該針對核二、核三的延役，在7月核三廠第1號機組就要除役了……"],["陳院長建仁：除役，對。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個是賴清德新政府上來的未爆彈，他5月上來，7月就要除役，核三廠1號機組占全臺灣的發電量3.25%，不能說不多，如果按照你們現在的除役進度，它就要除役。所以我想請問一下部長，核三廠除役之後我們的替代電力是什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們現在有非常多的電力建設在增加，包括燃氣機組、再生能源都在增加。"],["王委員鴻薇：你能不能具體講？因為7月很快就到了，短短4個月就要到了，你現在說很多都在增加，增加在哪裡？你有具體的作為嗎？我現在給你機會喔！讓你具體說明。"],["王部長美花：像我們大潭的9號機，還有森霸的電廠等等，年底還有高雄的興達電廠1號機，這個就是我們今年會上來的時程。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這些部分就是要彌補核三廠1號機組的除役，對不對？"],["王部長美花：不僅如此，我們還有增加。"],["陳院長建仁：對，增加。"],["王部長美花：不只核三啦！因為還有一些燃煤機組也要除役了。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯啊！興達電廠也要除役，是不是？"],["王部長美花：燃煤的不是只有……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道今年的再生能源應該可以達到10%，對不對？"],["王部長美花：有！"],["王委員鴻薇：可是問題是再生能源的成長終究沒有那麼快，所以我們會越來越仰賴不管是天然氣，或者是煤，天然氣就會出現過去已經討論很多很多的問題，我今天為什麼這麼重視能源政策？剛才賴士葆委員說能源政策是國安政策、國安危機，這完全是正確的。","我另外請教，我們都知道台積電是護國神山，最近台積電有一個政策準備在臺灣大幅地增加投資，準備蓋10個新廠，我想很多縣市都非常、非常歡迎台積電能夠到它那邊設廠，可是不可諱言的，外界說台積電就是一個吃電怪獸。"],["陳院長建仁：不是怪獸啦！這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：吃電大戶嘛！它就是用電最多的嘛！它整個的電力消費比例，從2020年占全臺的5.9%，一直用到7.5%，如果按照它現在新的計畫，未來2025它的用電量可能會占全國用電量的12.5%；我們一方面希望護國神山能夠多增加相關的投資，但另外一方面它就是用電量非常、非常高。所以我想請教院長和部長，雖然你們很可能在520都不留在位子上，但是臺灣後續的永續發展是很重要的，我們現在如果都要用再生能源那麼貴，我們撐得起我們的護國神山嗎？"],["王部長美花：不對，台積電反而要增加越來越多的再生能源，因為它對RE100的部分或者它的客戶的要求，它都告訴我們要趕快來增加更多的再生能源，讓它可以用到更高的再生能源的占比，這個是台積電……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道臺灣的綠電幾乎都被台積電買光了。"],["王部長美花：它需要……"],["王委員鴻薇：未來的碳費，電的供應要穩定但是不能太高，台電常常講我們現在比南韓還要低什麼等等之類……"],["陳院長建仁：確實如此啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：可是這就是我們競爭力的一部分啊！你有本事你調高比南韓還要高嘛！可以這樣子嗎？","在最後一點時間，我要為我們的大眾運輸的電費來做陳情，因為我們一方面希望節能減碳，一方面希望大家能夠儘量用大眾運輸，減碳嘛！但是以這幾次的漲電價，比如說臺北捷運，它光是電價的支出就增加了3.6億，而我並不是那麼自私的只幫臺北市的捷運來爭取，我覺得包含臺鐵、高鐵、捷運，包含新北捷運、桃捷、臺中捷運、高雄捷運，在政策上你這根本是左手、右手的概念，應該讓這些大眾運輸的捷運系統，包含臺鐵都應該有電費的減免，這才符合我們的減碳政策對不對？"],["王部長美花：減免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就辣椒粉食安事件你跟薛瑞元一樣也不願意道歉嗎辣椒粉含有這個"},{"start":280.495,"end":284.638,"text":"院長有疏漏那你願不願意道歉那我可以來就這一個部分有疏漏的地方"},{"start":307.95,"end":318.577,"text":"我來代表我們整個食藥署來跟民眾說歉意。我覺得這個是比較負責任的態度。好,時間暫停一下。請我們經濟部長,王部長。部長、院長,其實現在"},{"start":330.503,"end":359.274,"text":"我們全國非常關注的一件事情就是電價上漲。部長你之前說為什麼電價這次漲幅要這麼高呢?是因為全球國際的能源上漲,是不是?燃料成本確實是增加非常多,是。錯!我今天就要來戳破我們經濟部的謊言。電價上漲不是因為國際能源價格的大幅上漲。我給部長院長來看"},{"start":362.123,"end":390.879,"text":"從二無戰爭之後確實國際的這些能源價格天然氣煤還有石油價格確實都在飆升可是後來慢慢都走低你可以看到這個趨勢圖包含天然氣、煤和油價都已經跌回在二無戰爭之前所以現在的國際能源價格是緩和的"},{"start":392.335,"end":411.886,"text":"所以你現在用這個來做藉口是一個謊言。另外等一下我再給你一個證明再來看過去我們都常常去討論不是只有臺電的虧損因為價格提高越南知不知道臺電今年還會虧損嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":418.281,"end":437.971,"text":"中油希望今年能夠打平,他說還有機會轉虧為盈。為什麼呢?因為以中油來說,2022年就是惡霧戰爭開打的那一年,年初開打,所以那一年中油就虧了2000億以上。"},{"start":439.312,"end":459.643,"text":"他合理,他反映了國際能源價格。接下來去年他的虧損大幅收斂,今年到現在已經賺了33億。為什麼?因為連中油都承認因為國際能源價格已經趨於和緩,所以他今年要去拼轉虧為盈。"},{"start":462.188,"end":491.147,"text":"所以我要告訴你能源價格上漲不是你真正漲電價的原因不要騙我們不要騙社會大眾我以為你要讓我說明等一下不要再聽謊言來我們沒有謊言這個都是透明的謊價唯一的原因是什麼呢是錯誤的能源政策我不同意我現在告訴你你剛才我已經跟你講你想什麼能源價格上漲那已經過去了"},{"start":492.366,"end":519.413,"text":"但是你如果按照這樣2022應該大幅上漲2023應該大幅上漲為什麼到2024你才大幅上漲為什麼因為那兩年都有選舉嘛是不是沒有啊所以我們之前也有漲兩次的這個部分啊兩次但是你不敢大幅上漲是因為到現在你才要補漲好為什麼說你漲價的原因是錯誤能源政策來看一下我可以不可以先回一下來院長你知道嗎"},{"start":520.493,"end":533.316,"text":"我們台電現在從外部的購電那個比例是很高的越來越高我們台電到外面去買電一度4.8來買光電一度6.7來買風電這邊有寫錯字因為風電更貴台電呢"},{"start":545.337,"end":569.685,"text":"賣給我們的民間、賣給我們的消費者平均一度電是3.1元所以你可以看得到我們風電還有光電的成本遠遠高於我們賣電的價格所以大家常常會講說如果台電賣一度電、虧一度電就是這樣來的"},{"start":570.959,"end":590.494,"text":"所以我要講的,錯誤的能源政策,臺灣不要發展再生能源嗎?委員不可以用這樣講。我們要發展再生能源,但是我們要不要保持電價合理?我們要不要比較讓我們的消費者能夠接受電價?你可以一直發展再生能源嗎?你現在還有9塊錢10塊錢在買一度電。"},{"start":593.024,"end":593.224,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":614.148,"end":639.246,"text":"還有我們的價格能夠讓我們消費者或者我們的工業我們的產業能夠讓我們做一個合理的接受那我不能接受是當你漲低價的時候都怪國外怪國外的能源價格上漲我現在告訴你啊人家價格下跌啊人家價格下跌為什麼我要上漲呢好因為我剩下最後一點時間我很重要的我一直說啊"},{"start":640.319,"end":662.886,"text":"我們應該針對和二和三的研議和三廠7月第一號機組就要除役了這個是賴清德上來的新政府的一個未爆彈他5月上來7月就要除役和三廠一號機組佔全臺灣的發電量3.25%不能說不多"},{"start":669.344,"end":694.351,"text":"如果按照你們現在的廚藝的進度,它叫廚藝,所以我想請問一下部長,河山廠廚藝之後我們的替代電力是什麼?我們現在所以有非常多的電力建設在增加,所以包括燃氣機組,包括再生人員都在增加。你們具體講,你們具體講,因為7月很快就到了。"},{"start":695.506,"end":697.407,"text":"所以,你這些部分就是要彌補和三場一號機組的廚藝嘛,對不對?"},{"start":721.141,"end":745.217,"text":"我們還有增加,對。不只河山,因為還有一些燃煤機組也要除役了。沒錯,興達電廠也要除役啊,是不是?所以我們其實,我知道今年災生能源應該可以達到10%啦,對不對?可是問題是,災生能源的成長,終究沒有那麼快。所以我們會越來越"},{"start":747.253,"end":748.713,"text":"目前臺積電有一個政策說準備在臺灣"},{"start":774.926,"end":775.246,"text":"王鴻薇"},{"start":797.728,"end":820.089,"text":"整個的電力的消費比例從2020年的5.9%用全臺的5.9%一直用到7.5%那如果按照他現在新的計畫未來2025他的用電量可能會在全國用電量的12.5%我們一方面希望護國神山能夠多增加這些相關的投資"},{"start":821.05,"end":841.893,"text":"但是另外一方面他就是用電量非常非常高所以我想請教院長和部長雖然你們很可能在520都不留在位置上但是臺灣的後續永續發展是很重要所以我們現在如果都要用再生能源那麼貴我們撐得起我們的護國神山嗎?"},{"start":843.014,"end":861.85,"text":"欸不對,台積電他反而要增加越來越多的再生能源,因為他對RE100的部分,或者他的客戶的要求,他都告訴我們要趕快來增加更多的再生能源,讓他可以用到更高的再生能源的佔比,這個是台積電的。我知道台積電台灣的那個台灣的綠電幾乎都被台積電買光了,因為未來的碳費。但是,"},{"start":868.336,"end":868.636,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":884.463,"end":901.917,"text":"可以這樣子嗎?在最後一點時間我要為我們的大眾運輸的電費來做澄清因為我們一方面希望節能減碳一方面希望大家能夠盡量用大眾運輸減碳但是以這幾次的漲電價比如說臺北捷運"},{"start":908.482,"end":908.702,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":962.323,"end":970.07,"text":"謝謝王委員、王鴻薇的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,上午的質詢到此為止,下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}