{"error":false,"id":["149940"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149940,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149940","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T09:35:55+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T09:46:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ad931a07b9d7bd0a41b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a6286718de83cffd1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:35:55 - 09:46:26","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時36分）主席，麻煩請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。跟你請教，最近ETF熱銷的原因，你覺得主要是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們的業者知道國人喜歡配息或是月配息的，所以用這種商品吸引投資人，中間加上一些行銷，至少從檢查結果看出來，行銷上的一些手法跟公會的廣告規範是有差異的，國人也不見得完全清楚他買的ETF的性質，因為很多績效是過去的，不見得代表未來。"],["吳委員秉叡：發行ETF的是特定的證券、投信公司，所以家數並不是很多，如果你要加強管理應該不是很困難。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛有提到用「高股息」這樣子的名稱，基本上，它如果用這樣的名稱就已經有誤導的成分在裡面了，會不會有這樣的感覺？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我深有同感，而且不只是這個商品，委員，不曉得您記不記得以前……"],["吳委員秉叡：保險也是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：儲蓄型的保單也是跟定存比，現在這個投信的配息也是跟定存比，我認為非常不當。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為中文上面的「高股息」本身就有一定的評價。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：以這個為標的宣傳高股息，不知道的人一聽認為獲利很好，他就會誤會，其實投資有賺有賠，這是常常看到的警語。再來，如果發行的量很大，成分股又很集中，因為臺灣的股市現在大部分成交的權值都在電子類股，這個會不會高度集中，將來造成助漲、助跌的狀況？大家都一窩蜂嘛！ETF也一窩蜂，買的時候，大家都買同樣的成分股，所以那些被選定為成分股的股票就啪啪啪一直漲嘛！這就變成大家一窩蜂的集中，然後就超漲，但如果變成熊市的時候、一直跌的時候，ETF為了人家要贖回、為了要發股息等等，他又得賣，所以會變成超漲、超跌的狀況，你不覺得就股票市場而言，有可能有這樣的狀況嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員其實你是專家，我想從後面的先講。你剛才提到股票漲跌會有贖回的，那就是所謂的流動性風險，這部分在我們2月底發布的參考國際組織所規範的，其實也有這個部分的著墨。另外也跟你報告，目前整個48檔ETF中，大概涵蓋的成分股有402家上市櫃公司，所以是廣的，但集中在某一個上市公司，超過一定比例的，其實基本上都還是有分散，不過我們也不能以此就覺得不需要注意，我們還是要特別注意，所以我們在報告中也有提到，請周邊單位建立一個整個市場面的相關監管機制。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在的股票，OTC加進來，加證交所，總共多少檔股票？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一千八百多檔。"],["吳委員秉叡：一千八百多檔裡面，ETF只有選擇裡面的多少檔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：402檔。"],["吳委員秉叡：402檔，我認為這樣還是集中，當然因為有很多股票本身交易量不大，你所謂的流動性風險，被ETF購買的股票對象比較不會是這類，為什麼？因為他都是選擇市場上交易比較熱絡的才會去投，如果這個ETF是專門投那些冷門股的，瞭解一點的投資人，大概比較沒有興趣，因為平常的交易量很低，將來如果要變現、要賣的時候，就有流動性風險。我講的是高度集中，這反而有另外一種效果，即助漲、助跌；漲的時候，假設本來正常應該是漲50%，因為大家高度投入，結果漲了不只50%；跌的時候、看壞的時候，也會有這樣的狀況，因為大家都在賣，就會加重賣壓，所以要注意會有這樣的風險存在。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，謝謝委員提醒，這也是為什麼我們要建立一個全市場的監視機制，當然，因為ETF的成分股是完全透明的，他要做多、做空，其實互相有抵銷的力量。"],["吳委員秉叡：瞭解。另外你要記得以前曾經發生弊案，是什麼樣的弊案呢？就是政府的基金在選股上跟人家勾結而產生弊端，ETF的發行有沒有可能跟股票上市公司的管理階層在選股上面，即變成它的成分股，這裡面的選股機制，會不會也大有文章的可能性？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您的確非常專業，其實這也是我們要注意的地方，感謝提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，你的報告第8頁，我今天早上很認真的讀了，第8頁第2點提到，金管會要加強ETF的審查，包括配息政策是否適當。我倒過來請教你，什麼樣的配息政策會被你認為是不適當？有沒有什麼樣的案例？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我待會也許請證期局審過的人來說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，沒關係，他可以來補充說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的瞭解，大概就是配息不得誇大不實，還有要跟……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有，沒有，這個是配息政策，不是配息的廣告喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：政策是指我這一檔發行的時候，就已經決定將來要用什麼樣的方式來配這個息，包括是月配、季配或年配，或是配息的時候是要拿可以得到的股息還是要賣股票來配，這個才是配息政策。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請高副局長跟您報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：來！請副局長補充。"],["高副局長晶萍：是，回答委員的問題，主要我們審的時候大概會去考慮它配息主要的來源、配息的頻率，是不是跟它的成分股確實可以領到的息，然後可以支付，類似這樣子看能不能配比，以上。"],["吳委員秉叡：配比？所以目前還沒有出現你們認為不適當的案例嗎？審查沒有通過，是因為他的配息政策你們認為不適當的，有沒有這樣的案例？"],["高副局長晶萍：我們都會叫他說明，如果說明OK，我們才會放行這樣的ETF發行。"],["吳委員秉叡：你這個話在這邊講出去之後，將來的配息如果出現問題，你就要負責任喔！臺灣的市場就是這樣，賺到錢很少人會感謝政府，但是賠錢時所有人都怪政府，所以我要提醒你，臉書上面已經出現00940的自救會，你知道嗎？而且參加的會員有2萬1,000人，還沒有上市去買股票，它已經公開宣稱元大發行的00940，將來如果跌破面額，他們就要集體上街抗議。現在還沒有買股票，它就已經做這樣的宣稱，現在2萬1,000人是少的，但如果真的賠錢，參加的人會更多喔！針對這點，不知道主委的看法怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：剛才副局長跟您報告，就是審查它的配息，基本上還是要透過市場的檢視，只是確定它有沒有過度……不能夠自圓其說，至少要一個理由、一個邏輯的理路，至於市場的漲跌趨勢，我想不是任何人能夠預估的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，但是我剛剛就提醒你，臉書Facebook上已經出現00940的自救會社團，而且現在參加的會員已經有2萬1,000人，然後它公開宣稱00940將來上市之後，如果跌破10元面額，它就要發起抗議……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我們有注意到。"],["吳委員秉叡：面對這個，你要如何對社會大眾說明？臉書出現這樣的社團，你有什麼樣的想法？可不可以跟我們大家說明一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實任何的商品都要充分的資訊揭露，至於說成立這個社團，我沒有特別的評論，我想這是發行公司自己本身要特別注意怎樣去跟投資人充分的溝通。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是主委，它抗議的對象不會只有元大，如果規模夠大，抗議起來是整個社會動盪，不是元大一間公司，所以我的意思是，投資有賺有賠，需要充分揭露，這個都是該做、該說明的，也是大家都知道的原理，問題是面對錢，大家不這麼理性，面對錢，賺錢是應該的，賠錢就是你們害我的，有的人會有這樣的想法，我覺得這一件事情如果沒有妥善處理，沒有事先想辦法提供更多的揭露，請元大公司還有請所有要發行ETF的公司重視這個問題，就是要如何處理，萬一將來有什麼閃失，會引起社會另外一波的不安，我擔心的是這個。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這一點，我想我的同仁應該也都有提醒元大，我們也會特別注意，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，我的意思是這不是只有元大的事，今天00940會出現，改天就會有00941、00942，反正將來的媒體都有這樣子，這也是一種社會壓力，但是這種壓力明顯不當，因為你還沒有投資市場，天下有哪一個市場是保證賺而不賠的？我是為這樣的心態感到憂慮，如何讓投資人的心態有比較正常、健康的想法，是我們大家要努力的目標。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，瞭解，謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油啦！我看到你們的報告其實寫得很完整，但可以繼續努力，內容要繼續落實，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 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跟你請教最近這個ETF它熱銷的原因你覺得主要是什麼"},{"start":25.219,"end":50.392,"text":"我們的業者他知道國人喜歡這種配息的或是越配息的所以用這種商品來吸引投資人那中間加上一些行銷上我認為至少從檢查結果看出來行銷上的一些手法跟工會的廣告的規範是有差異的那國人也不見得完全清楚他買的ETF的性質因為很多績效是過去的不見得代表未來"},{"start":51.972,"end":75.103,"text":"發行ETF是特定的這些投信公司嘛,證券投信公司所以加速並不是很多啊,如果你要加強管理應該不是很困難啦是那剛剛有提到說用高股息這樣子的名稱基本上他如果用這樣的名稱就已經有誤導的成分在裡面啦"},{"start":76.707,"end":100.948,"text":"會不會有這樣的感覺代委員其實我深有同感而且不只是這個商品委員不知道您記不記得一些儲蓄型的保單也是去跟定存去比那現在這個投信的配息也是跟定存比我認為非常不當因為中文上面的這個高股息它本身就有一定的評價以這個為標的然後在這邊宣傳高股息不知道人一聽就說這個獲利很好"},{"start":103.45,"end":128.924,"text":"他就是會去誤會了說投資有賺有賠常常在看的那個警語再來就是如果發行的量很大那成分股又很集中因為臺灣的股市現在大部分的成交都全職也大部分都在電子類股那這個會不會高度集中他將來會造成助長助諜這樣的狀況"},{"start":131.305,"end":152.553,"text":"因為大家都一窩蜂嘛ETF一窩蜂結果買的時候大家就都買同樣的股的成分股啊所以那些被選定為成分股的股票就漂漂漂一直一直漲嘛啊這就是會變成一窩蜂的這個這個超大家集中然後說就超漲但是如果再變成熊市的時候"},{"start":154.878,"end":166.396,"text":"一直跌的時候那ETF為了人家要贖回啦為了要發股息等等他又跌賣所以是會變成超漲超跌的狀況你不覺得有可能有這樣的狀況嗎就股票市場而言"},{"start":167.318,"end":195.199,"text":"委員其實您是專家啦我講先從後面的先講你剛才講到那個如果股票漲跌會有贖回的那就是所謂的流動性的風險這部分在我們2月底的發布的參考國際組織所規範其實也就這個部分有做琢磨那另外跟您報告目前整個的ETF48檔大概它涵蓋的成分股402家上市公司所以像是廣的但其中在"},{"start":196.311,"end":198.152,"text":"現在的股票是OTC加進來加證交所總共多少張股票"},{"start":221.937,"end":238.467,"text":"1800多檔1800多檔裡面ETF只有選擇裡面的400多檔402檔402檔我認為這樣還是集中當然因為有很多的股票它本身的交易量不大你所謂的流動性的風險對於ETF購買的股票對象本身比較不會為什麼因為它都選擇這個市場上"},{"start":241.189,"end":267.71,"text":"交易比較熱絡的都會去投嘛如果你這個ETF是專門投那些冷門股的我想投資人如果了解一點的大概比較沒有興趣啦因為他平常的交易量很低他將來如果要變現的時候要賣的時候流落性風險我講的是高度集中他反而有另外一種效果助漲助跌漲的時候本來假設他本來正常來講應該是漲50%因為大家高度投入一直投入的結果他漲了不止50%"},{"start":269.111,"end":290.109,"text":"疊的時候看壞的時候也會有這樣的狀況喔因為大家都賣然後他也加重賣壓所以要注意會有這樣子的風險存在先為委員提醒這也是為什麼我們要建立一個全市場的監視機制那當然因為ETF的成分股是完全透明的啦是他要做多做空其實是互相有抵銷的力量了解"},{"start":290.689,"end":319.651,"text":"另外你要記得以前曾經發生弊案是什麼樣的弊案政府的基金在選股上跟人家勾結產生ETF的發行有沒有會跟股票上市公司的管理階層這樣子選股上面變成他的成本裡面這裡面的這個選股的機制會不會也有大有文章的可能性您的確非常專業其實這也是我們要注意的地方感謝提醒"},{"start":320.011,"end":338.392,"text":"那你的報告第8月我今天早上很認真給你讀了你說第8月的第二點說你們今晚會加強ETF的審查包括配息政策是否適當那倒過來就想請教你什麼樣子的配息政策會被你認為不適當有沒有什麼樣的案例"},{"start":340.029,"end":359.121,"text":"我覺得我待會也許肯政經局大審過的人來說明好沒關係可以來補充說明那個我的了解大概就是你的配息不得誇大不實那還有要跟沒有沒有這個是配息政策喔不是配息的廣告喔對政策是指我這一檔發行的時候"},{"start":359.761,"end":376.782,"text":"我就已經決定我將來是用什麼方式來配這個席包括是月配或是季配或是年配或是配的時候是要拿我得到的這個股息還是我要賣股票來配這個才是配席政策我請那個高副局長來補充"},{"start":382.103,"end":407.832,"text":"主要我們審大概會去考慮一下他配息主要的來源是哪裡然後配息的頻率那是不是跟他確實成分股比如說配息他所謂可以領到的息然後可以去支付類似這樣子的看能不能配比以上配比所以目前還沒有出現過你們認為不適當的案例嗎審查沒有通過是因為他的配息政策你們認為是不適當的有沒有這樣的案例"},{"start":408.972,"end":434.42,"text":"我們都會叫他說明那如果說明OK的話我們才會放行這樣的ETF發行所以你這個話在這邊講出去之後就是將來的配息如果出現問題你就要負責任了台灣的市場就是這樣賺到錢很少人會感謝政府但是賠錢所有人都怪政府主委我要提醒你臉書上面已經出現00940的自救會了你知道嗎"},{"start":435.216,"end":462.29,"text":"而且參加的會員有兩萬一千人還沒有上市去買股票他已經公開宣稱袁大發選這個00940將來如果跌破變額他們就要集體上街抗議現在還沒有買股票他就已經做這樣的宣稱了所以我是覺得兩萬一千人目前是少如果真的賠錢參加的人會更多所以這個點不知道你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":463.69,"end":482.779,"text":"剛才副局長跟您報告就是審查他的配息那基本上還是要透過市場的檢視只是確定他有沒有過度的不能夠自圓其說至少要一個理由一個邏輯的理路啦那至於說漲跌誰能管這個市場趨勢不是任何人能夠預估的"},{"start":483.479,"end":509.935,"text":"但是我剛剛就是跟你提醒說臉書上面Facebook上面已經出現00940的自救會的社團而且現在參加的會員已經有兩萬一千人了然後他公開宣稱00940將來上市之後如果跌破10元的面額他就要發起抗議那面對這個你要如何對社會大眾說明那這個臉書出現這樣的社團你有什麼樣的想法你可不可以跟我們大家說明一下"},{"start":511.465,"end":514.008,"text":"不過但是主委他抗議對象不會是只有元大"},{"start":531.384,"end":557.294,"text":"這個如果規模過大抗議起來是整個社會動盪啊不是元大一間公司啊所以我的意思是說投資有賺有賠充分的揭露這個都是該說明的大概大家都知道的原理問題是面對錢大家不這麼理性欸面對錢賺錢是應該的喔賠錢就是你們害我的啊一般人有的人會有這樣的想法那這個"},{"start":558.447,"end":584.888,"text":"我覺得這件事情如果沒有妥善處理沒有事先趕快想辦法更多的揭露請元大公司還有請這所有的這個要發行ETF的公司去重視這個要如何處理的話萬一將來有什麼散失會引起社會另外一波的不安我擔心的是這個我想這一點我想元大我的同仁應該也有多提醒元大我們也會特別注意謝謝對那"},{"start":586.857,"end":607.188,"text":"我的意思是說這個不是只有元大的事今天00940會出現改天就會有00941、00942反正將來的媒體、黨標地都會這樣子這也是一種社會壓力但是這種壓力明顯的不當啊因為你還沒有投資在市場那天下還有哪一個市場是保證賺不賠的"},{"start":608.755,"end":627.832,"text":"所以我是覺得為這樣的心態感到很憂慮如何讓這樣的心態能夠有比較正常、比較健康的想法是我們大家要努力的目標是,了解,謝謝委員那加油來我看到你們的報告其實寫得很完整還是可以繼續努力裡面要繼續落實好不好謝謝你,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}