{"error":false,"id":["149941"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149941,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149941","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T09:32:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T09:45:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a6801a7d4ea2173823919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a65d3f82888028b44a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:32:28 - 09:45:44","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時32分）主席，我們先請司法院副秘書長跟法務部蔡部長。"],["主席：我們請部長跟副秘書長上臺。"],["沈委員發惠：我先請問黃副秘書長，我們剛才有這麼多的討論，但是現在有關偵查不公開的最高位階法令就是刑事訴訟法，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條是我們司法院主管的法令？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，裡面有一項偵查程序事項執行。"],["沈委員發惠：依據刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，它授權我們制定偵查不公開作業辦法，這個也是由我們司法院會銜法務部嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，由司法院會銜行政院發布。"],["沈委員發惠：對，會銜行政院。行政院應該是由法務部這邊來提供意見，因此我們簡單講，在目前的司法體系裡面有關偵查不公開的部分主管其實是司法院，對不對？依主管的法令來講。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：最高位階的法源是我們，但實際上執行面……"],["沈委員發惠：事實上它規範的執行單位大部分是由法務部主管，對不對？在法令上面我們有這樣的問題，所以今天我們請司法院副秘書長來，雖然你主管這個法令，但是對於實際上的執行應該還是法務部比較清楚。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，跟委員報告……"],["沈委員發惠：所以副秘書長先請回，我接下來跟蔡部長做幾個溝通。剛才在質詢的過程中討論到記者進入特定區域，有關偵查不公開的部分，剛才司法院副秘書長講得滿清楚的，我們的最高位階法令是刑事訴訟法，接下來我們所有各單位、這些偵查單位或是偵查輔助單位的相關規定，基本上就是依據頒布的偵查不公開作業辦法，對不對？是不是都依據這個？"],["蔡部長清祥：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：然後各單位再去制定自己的執行要點？"],["蔡部長清祥：主要法務部訂定的……"],["沈委員發惠：就是偵查不公開作業辦法嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：對，規範檢察官還有一些輔助的偵查機關。"],["沈委員發惠：不管是刑事訴訟法或是我們剛剛所講的這些規範，事實上它有具體規範的行為主體，它有具體規範行為態樣的構成要件，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這些行為主體跟構成要件裡面有沒有包括對於場地的限制？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們是希望在採訪的時候有限制的地方。"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有包括對於接觸對象的限制？我是說依法令，我們就依刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條或者依整部偵查不公開作業辦法，事實上是沒有啦！部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上這個規範是規範它的行為主體，指的是偵查機關或者是偵查輔助機關這些人相關的行為態樣，也就是「因執行職務知悉之事項，不得公開或揭露予執行法定職務必要範圍以外之人員。」"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，限制的是他對偵辦案件的內容……"],["沈委員發惠：對，針對他偵辦的案件而且他在職務中所知道的。"],["蔡部長清祥：對於跟案件無關的不是偵查不公開的。"],["沈委員發惠：它沒有限制誰不可以跟誰談話、誰不可以進入什麼區域。你們自己在報告裡面所列的，臺灣高檢署召開會議並發函明訂劃定採訪區跟採訪禁制區，這個其實無關法令上的構成要件，對不對？這是你們高檢署的自律，也就是為了避免瓜田李下、為了避免相關的這些程序，因此做出比法令更嚴格的限制，連區域都有做這樣的限制，對不對？它事實上不屬於法律上的限制，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對，在作業辦法裡面我們有這樣的要求。"],["沈委員發惠：所以簡單講，它無關於偵查公開或不公開，它是某一種職業態樣跟某一種職業態樣的人適不適合接觸的問題，跟偵查不公開的法定要件是沒關係的，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：它要求的是在就個案採訪的時候要由發言人對外說明，而不是由承辦人。"],["沈委員發惠：所以沒有錯嘛！它事實上跟偵查不公開無關，限制記者只能在記者室或是會議室的這個規定跟偵查不公開是一個法令要件沒有關係，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個法律其實很簡單，它就是刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，但是接下來執行的各單位實在非常複雜，你們自己有制定一個偵查不公開作業辦法，接著法務部有一個「法務部加強所屬檢察調查及廉政機關遵守偵查不公開原則實施方案」，廉政署自己又有「法務部廉政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開作業要點」，警政署又有自己的，每個名稱都很長，警政署有「警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點」，各式各樣的規定，這些規定基本上都是依偵查不公開作業辦法來的，而偵查不公開作業辦法本身的規定也相當繁複，偵查不公開是大原則，但是它有一些例外規定，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：在我們的作業要點第八條就是一個例外規定，它所規定的七種態樣是可以公開的，偵查不公開是原則，但是有七個例外可以公開，大概就是為了公共利益的維護、合法權益的保障，所以你們大概列了重大案件、逃犯的通緝、要求民眾的協助等等，這七種態樣是可以公開的，但是可以公開的第八條本來就已經是例外規定了，你們又立一條說如果要公開的話又要有所限制，在第九條裡面限制少年犯罪嫌疑犯具體提供自首或自白、相關的申請等，這個又有限制。原則規定、例外的可以公開，可以公開的又有一些要件排除，排除之後又有例外，這裡面第十一款說相關的檢舉人有特別說明必要的時候，必須書面敘明理由，經機關首長核准，以去識別化處理，你們又有這些，所以它是一個原則、例外、例外排除、排除之後再限制，本身……"],["蔡部長清祥：確實有一點複雜。"],["沈委員發惠：本身就很複雜，接下來你們就要求各單位對於偵查不公開做必要的檢討、督導及改善，這也在作業要點裡面，第十一條你們直接要求偵查機關或偵查輔助機關首長，應指定該機關有關人員三人至五人，組成偵查不公開檢討小組。另外，你們在第二款的部分又有偵查不公開督導小組，有檢討小組又有督導小組，我在這邊請問部長，第十一條所規定的偵查機關及偵查輔助機關首長要指定的檢討小組是到什麼層級？法務部自己本身有沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部是由檢察司負責督導全國相關的檢察機關，真正就個案的檢討的話……"],["沈委員發惠：不是就個案，我是說就第十一條。"],["蔡部長清祥：就是每一個報導出來有沒有違反偵查不公開是由……"],["沈委員發惠：不、不，第十一條包括督導小組，偵查機關及偵查輔助機關首長「應」，它不是「得」，應指定該機關有關人員三人至五人，組成偵查不公開檢討小組，除非當季沒有新聞就免召開，這個規定在裡面，要不然你們這些機關依這個作業要點都要成立檢討小組。"],["蔡部長清祥：都有成立。"],["沈委員發惠：都有成立是到什麼層級？從法務部本身到……"],["蔡部長清祥：最高檢也有，高檢也有，地檢也有。"],["沈委員發惠：調查局？"],["蔡部長清祥：調查局也有。"],["沈委員發惠：政風室……"],["蔡部長清祥：廉政署也有。"],["沈委員發惠：廉政署也有，然後警察機關呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：刑事警察局我不曉得有沒有，應該也有吧！"],["沈委員發惠：請刑事警察局周局長。"],["周局長幼偉：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：我們警察單位所謂的定期檢討小組是到什麼層級？各縣市警察局是到各分局嗎？"],["周局長幼偉：這個部分的話，我們刑事警察局是我們的偵查科，然後我們的局長、副局長會來擔任委員。"],["沈委員發惠：好，那整個警政署的狀況呢？"],["周局長幼偉：各縣市警察局都有類似的組織……"],["沈委員發惠：都有類似的組織，那各縣市警察局下面的分局有沒有？"],["周局長幼偉：是，分局，就是警察局。"],["沈委員發惠：就到警察局啦！"],["周局長幼偉：是。"],["沈委員發惠：部長，你們在這個要件裡面偵查機關及偵查輔助機關的這個定義、這個層級，到底要到哪一個層級要成立檢討小組，這個不是很清楚啦！但是這個沒有關係，更重要的是，其實黃委員剛剛也有稍微提到，我們來檢視全臺灣地檢署所公布的偵查不公開檢討跟查處情形，我列出這個表，他們公布的檢討件數總共是7,311件，這7,000多件最後的處分人數是15個人，調查時間是從108年一直到112年12月，我是以各地檢署為例，檢討了7,000多件，在7,000多件裡面成立的總共367件，在367個案件裡面，牽涉到懲處的才15個人而已，部長，這是為什麼？怎麼會有這種情況？"],["蔡部長清祥：我說明一下，這個檢討件數是各地蒐集所有報導的內容，也許它是各種方式的報導，只要跟案件有關就來，然後裡面有可能涉及到……"],["沈委員發惠：不是可能，它已經結案了……"],["蔡部長清祥：譬如說經過初步的篩選以後，在過濾以後才找出367件來檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：這個表的第二欄就是你們已經確定是未依偵查不公開作業辦法而公開或揭露的案件，就是367件，這367件每一件不只一個人，對不對？有367個案件，但是最後懲處的只有15個人，部長，為什麼會這樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然每一個狀況不一樣，各地的報導或是各地的小組檢討以後，但是確實有檢討啦！"],["沈委員發惠：我知道有檢討。"],["蔡部長清祥：如果要再加強或是要再強化，我們願意來……"],["沈委員發惠：部長，我的時間到了，我就不占時間啦！但是我要跟你講，你們這樣的統計是有問題的，我一向很不喜歡談個案，但是我們看到有個案連司法判決都已經判決他應該要降級改敘，就是在2021年發生的臺南調查員查賄選的案件裡面，他最後被司法判決違反偵查不公開，被判決應該要降級改敘。結果我看你們的統計，最後你們統計的被處分人數還是0，所以請部長回去瞭解，你們這種統計方式是有問題的，我至少確定知道有1件，可是你們統計的結果還是0，請部長去瞭解一下你們現在所公布的這些相關的檢討報告，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，我們再瞭解一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。我們接下來請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.09596875,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.027843750000002,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03"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主要法務部定定的 啊 就是偵查不公開作業辦法嗎對 規範檢察官還有一些 不管是刑事做法或是我們剛剛所講的這些規範 它事實上它有具體的具體規範的行為主體 它有具體規範行為太陽的構成要件 對不對是 這些行為主體跟構成要件裡面有沒有包括對於場地的限制"},{"start":201.287,"end":226.783,"text":"呃,我們是希望在採訪的時候有限制的地方。包括對於接觸對象的限制啦,我說依法令,依法令,我們就依刑事訴訟法,第245條,或者依我們整部偵查不公開作業辦法。事實上是沒有啦,部長。事實上我們這個規範,他是規範他的行為主體,就是偵查機關,或者是,或者是這個,這個輔助偵查機關,他的這些相關的這些,這些人,他的行為太樣,就是,"},{"start":229.223,"end":253.192,"text":"應執行職務而知稀釋事項不可以公開揭露給必要範圍以外的人跟我們說明一下就是說限制的是說他在偵辦的案件這個案件針對他偵辦的案件而且他在職務中所知道的跟案件無關的不是偵查不公開的他沒有限制說誰不可以跟誰談話誰不可以進入什麼區域你們自己在報告裡面所列的這個所謂"},{"start":255.213,"end":269.782,"text":"你們有限制臺灣高檢署召開會議並發函明定劃定採訪區跟採訪機制區這個其實無關這個無關法令上面的構成要件嘛對不對這是你們高檢署的自律就是說"},{"start":270.422,"end":298.553,"text":"我為了避免瓜田李下為了避免相關的這些程序因此我做比法令更嚴格的限制我連區域我都有做這樣的限制對不對他事實上不是法律不屬於法令上面的限制嘛對不對對這個作業辦法裡面啊所以簡單講他是關於偵查公開或不公開他是某一種職業太陽跟某一種職業太陽的人他適不適合接觸的問題跟偵查不公開這個法定的要件是沒有關係的對不對"},{"start":300.029,"end":321.394,"text":"他要求的是說你在就各案採訪的時候要由發言人來對外說明所以沒有錯嘛 沒有錯嘛 是啊所以他事實上跟這個偵查不公開你記者限制只能在記者室或者是會議室這個規定跟偵查不公開它是一個跟法令的要件沒有關係嘛 對不對是 對"},{"start":324.315,"end":351.011,"text":"所以齁我想這個因為這個偵查不公開這個法律其實很簡單他就是刑事重法245條但是他的接下來下面執行的你們各單位實在是非常的複雜你們自己有制定一個偵查不公開作為辦法那接下來呢我們這個法務部有一個法務部加強所屬檢查調查廉政機關遵守偵查不公開的原則實施方案"},{"start":352.401,"end":361.25,"text":"你們這個連政署自己又有法務部連政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開的作業要點警政署又有警政署自己的"},{"start":363.409,"end":383.077,"text":"這個每一個名稱都很長警政署又有警政署的警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點各式各樣的規定那這些規定大概基本上都是依偵查不公開作為辦法來的所以我們來看這個偵查不公開作為辦法本身的規定"},{"start":384.574,"end":398.334,"text":"其實也相當的繁複他有偵查不公開是大原則但是他有一些例外規定對不對在我們的這個作業要點的第8條他就是一個例外規定他規定了這個"},{"start":401.337,"end":427.962,"text":"7種態樣是可以公開的在偵查偵查不公開是原則但是有7個例外這可以公開大概就是說為了公共維護公共利益的維護合法權益的保障所以你們都在列了什麼重大案件啦這個逃犯的通緝啦這個要求民眾的協助啦等等這樣子7種態樣是可以公開的但是在可以公開的裡面你們第8條又有對於可以公開這個本來已經是例外規定了你們又一個第8條說但是"},{"start":429.602,"end":456.913,"text":"如果你要公開的話你又有所限制在第8條裡面限制啊限制你這個這個少年犯罪嫌疑犯具體提供自首或自白啦有關這個申請這個又有限制原則規定例外的可以公開可以公開又有一些要件啊排除排除之後又有例外他在這個裡面的第11第11款他就有說檢取人的這些相關啊這個"},{"start":458.24,"end":470.314,"text":"有特別說明必要的時候必須續明書面理由啊經機關首長核准啊以去識別化處理你們又有這些所以他是一個原則例外例外排除排除之後再限制"},{"start":471.513,"end":489.928,"text":"本身對本身確實有一點複雜本身就很複雜接下來你們讓各單位你們接下來你們就由這個偵查不公開你們就要求各單位要做這個必要的檢討啊督導及改善這也在作業要點裡面第11條你們就直接你們就要求說偵查機關或偵查輔助機關首長應該要指定機關有關人員3人至5人組成偵查不公開的檢討小組"},{"start":498.598,"end":518.878,"text":"另外你們又有這個第二款的部分又有偵查不公開的督導小組有檢討小組又有督導小組我在這邊請問部長齁這個第11條所規定的偵查機關及偵查輔助機關的機關首長要指定的這個檢討小組到什麼層級法務部自己本身有沒有"},{"start":520.303,"end":545.983,"text":"総部我們在檢察司他是負責督導全國的相關檢察機關對 那個阿真正就個案的檢討的話不是就個案我是說就第11條就是每一個報導出來有沒有違反檢查不公開沒有沒有不是第11條齁包括這督導小組偵查機關跟偵查輔助機關應他不是得喔應應指定該機關有關人員3至5人組成偵查不公開檢討小組"},{"start":549.676,"end":560.771,"text":"除非當季沒有新聞就免召開這個規定在裡面要不然你們這些機關依這個作業要點都要成立檢討小組都有成立都有成立是要什麼層級從法務部本身"},{"start":565.217,"end":576.407,"text":"到最高檢也有,高檢也有,地檢也有,調查局也有,聯政署也有,然後警察機關,刑事警察局也有吧"},{"start":589.4,"end":601.077,"text":"我們警察單位的這個所謂定期檢討小組我們到什麼層級?我們自己各縣的各縣市警察局到各分局嗎?"},{"start":602.871,"end":608.517,"text":"整個警政署的狀況呢?各縣市警察局都有類似的組織到各縣市警察局下面的分局有沒有?分局就是警察局"},{"start":622.452,"end":643.685,"text":"所以部長這個你們在這個要件裡面偵查機關及偵查輔助機關這個定義這個層級到底要到哪一個層級要成立檢討小組我們這個不是很清楚但這個沒有關係更重要的是剛剛其實黃委員剛剛有提到稍微提到了我們來檢視全台灣你們地檢署所公開的這偵查不公開檢討跟查處辦法這個我列出這個表你這個"},{"start":648.899,"end":656.983,"text":"檢討件數他們裡面所公布總共檢討7311件最後處分人數7000多件的處分人數最後是15個人這個調查時間是從108年一直到112年12月各地檢數這我以各地檢數為例你看檢討了7000多件7000多件案件"},{"start":675.831,"end":678.474,"text":"你這個案件裡面成立的總共是367件367件案件裡面牽涉到懲處的才15個人15個人而已"},{"start":688.032,"end":716.545,"text":"部長 這個是為什麼 怎麼會有這種情況我説明一下檢討件數是各地他收集所有報道的內容也許他是各種方式的報道只要跟案件有關他就來然後裡面有可能涉及到不是可能 他已經結案了就是說經過初步的會選篩選 遴選以後 過濾以後才找出367件來檢討第二欄就是就是你們已經確定你們是未依偵查不公開作業辦法"},{"start":717.935,"end":728.334,"text":"而公開或揭露的案件就300多件367件367件每一件是不只一個人啊對不對367件案件在最後懲處的只有15個人"},{"start":731.172,"end":760.1,"text":"部長為什麼會這樣當然他每一個狀況不一樣各地他的報導或是各地他的小組檢討以後但是確實有檢討啦如果要再加強或是要再強化部長時間已經到了不佔時間啦但是我跟你講你們這樣的統計是有問題的啦因為事實上我們掌握我一向很不喜歡談個案但是我們看到個案就已經他連司法判決都已經判決他應該要降級改序"},{"start":761.343,"end":776.829,"text":"在2021年發生的這個臺南的調查員的慧選案件裡面已經他最後被司法判決違反偵查不公開被判決應該要降級改序結果看你們的統計最後你們統計被處分人數還是零這個請部長你回去聊就你們這種統計方式是有問題的你們這樣連已經確定我至少確定知道有一件你們統計的結果還是零"},{"start":788.941,"end":794.755,"text":"請部長你去了解一下你們現在所公布的這些相關的這些檢討報告好不好好我們再了解一下謝謝好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}