{"error":false,"id":["149962"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149962,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149962","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T10:15:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T10:28:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab1a42ea11ecc63d93919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6bee343b31a484f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:15:20 - 10:28:10","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時15分）主席，有請部長、副秘書長。"],["主席：蔡部長、副秘書長請上臺。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：想請教部長，為什麼我們要有偵查不公開？是為了要貫徹無罪推定原則，保障被告受公平審判之權利並且避免輿論未審先判，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是其中之一，當然也要保證未來的偵查能夠更順暢，怕有一些洩密影響到未來的偵查。"],["羅委員智強：我再想請教您，我們照刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條：「偵查，不公開之」，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是！"],["羅委員智強：請問違反的法律責任是什麼？如果我們的檢察官違反偵查不公開的法律責任是什麼？"],["蔡部長清祥：可能涉及到洩密的問題。"],["羅委員智強：刑法第一百三十二條，對不對？有關於公務人員……"],["蔡部長清祥：他有行政責任，也有刑事責任。"],["羅委員智強：我講刑事責任的部分。"],["蔡部長清祥：刑事責任的部分有可能是洩密的罪嫌。"],["羅委員智強：有可能嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：就是刑法第一百三十二條第一項有三年以下有期徒刑，過失犯的話是一年以下有期徒刑。我想請教一下，我看法務部的報告當中，提到每年度7月、次年度1月針對偵查不公開的檢討情形要去揭露，到目前為止，我們就以去年為例，請問偵查不公開你們檢討了多少件數？討論的件數多少？未依偵查不公開作業辦法公開或揭露之件數及查辦件數、處分人數，多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：每半年要公布一次，現在是112年的下半年，我們總共檢討了1,672件。"],["羅委員智強：好，請問多少件成立？"],["蔡部長清祥：大概可能有違反之虞的有94件。"],["羅委員智強：有多少人被處分？"],["蔡部長清祥：查辦的有50件，結果如何，現在還沒有出來。"],["羅委員智強：結果如何還沒有出來啊？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：一年了。"],["蔡部長清祥：半年，半年是到112年12月底。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是我們從開始檢討偵查不公開，我剛剛看沈發惠委員講7,000件，有367件成立，15個人被懲處？"],["蔡部長清祥：他是從108年啦！"],["羅委員智強：好，那我就從108年開始算。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，委員需要資料我會後再提供，我現在手邊……"],["羅委員智強：我想請問處分的15人是什麼身分？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是偵查不公開辦法……"],["羅委員智強：是檢察官，還是警察？"],["蔡部長清祥：都有。"],["羅委員智強：多少檢察官？"],["蔡部長清祥：我現在手邊沒有資料，我們瞭解以後跟委員說明。"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天你們的報告當中、你們的檢討裡面也完全沒有附加任何的數字，問到所有的東西你都說要回去提供給我，我也希望你會提供給我。再想請教你一個問題，剛剛我們已經談論到今天違反偵查不公開是有刑事責任的，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：有可能啦！要看整個案情如何……"],["羅委員智強：好，我想請教你到現在為止，照沈委員講7,000件的討論、367件的成立，我想請問您，我們的檢察官、檢察機關最後被起訴的案件有多少？按照刑法第一百三十二條，起訴的案件有多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：我要瞭解看看。"],["羅委員智強：瞭解多少？我覺得法務部部長應該要瞭解吧！如果檢察官有人因此被起訴，你總會知道吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，因為各地的數字不同，我們還要經過統計……"],["羅委員智強：我直接告訴部長，你們現在所有的行政懲處，基本上記記警告、記記申誡，你覺得這有約束力嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：還是有。"],["羅委員智強：有約束力？道德約束力啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！我們常常也會辦教育，畢竟也要把一些狀況跟其他同仁講。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛您在備詢當中，我看到前面的莊委員在質詢你的時候，你就說很多媒體報導可能是媒體很厲害，也不一定是檢察官。我分享一個個人的親身經歷，我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過，我還記得傳訊以後，檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說：「羅先生，請你出去不要對外說任何有關案情的事情。」我說：「好，沒問題。」可是不到一個禮拜，我在接受詢問的內容，週刊全部寫出來了，我想請問一下我們的部長，是我告訴媒體的嗎？去告訴他們對我可能不利的一些消息，是我告訴媒體的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我相信委員應該不會嘛。"],["羅委員智強：我只有跟檢察官講啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他的人，或是這個案情……"],["羅委員智強：那問題就來了，今天我直接告訴大家，偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同具文嘛！","我們再講一個具體的例子，你總知道馬總統被起訴的案件，對不對？我想請問你，你知道偵查不公開如果反映在個案上，監察院曾經對於北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告，在2019年12月18號，有看過這個報告嗎？我告訴你報告的內容，我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題。他認為媒體大幅報導、公開照片、相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法第兩百四十五條偵查不公開的規定，嚴重侵犯人權，監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責，你覺得是對的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：監察院當然有它的職責、它的角度看法……"],["羅委員智強：然後我再跟你講，調查報告講當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢泰釗跟主任檢察官王鑫健涉洩密後，然後北檢傳訊新新聞、自由時報、鏡週刊3位撰文記者，他們都稱檢察的主任檢察官、三中案承辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料，然後調閱通聯紀錄也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九等多名被告或相關人士聯繫，就此認定檢方沒有洩密，就簽結了，就這樣就認定了。調查報告也認為說你這樣作法……事實上記者本來就不會告訴你他的消息來源啊！你問他，他不會告訴你啊！可是就據以把它簽結了。我想請問你，真的有保障被告所謂偵查不公開、無罪推定這樣的一個法益嗎？有保障嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是落實執行的程度如何啦……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，事實上你可以從所有的重大案件，包括從楊文科案，非常厲害啊！今天楊文科的案情是誰把它全部揭露的？是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！都是誰報導的，鉅細靡遺的報導？"],["蔡部長清祥：那個是承辦的檢察署，它因為外界的質疑或是外界要瞭解，它做適度的說明。"],["羅委員智強：它做適度的說明？請問它是不是因為媒體報導之後才出來說明？是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：有可能媒體去詢問嘛！"],["羅委員智強：媒體去詢問你就可以說明，就可以開始去帶風向了嗎？是這個意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是帶風向。"],["羅委員智強：那偵查不公開，到底是規範什麼的啊？我再講下一個例子，今天偵查不公開規範的客體是人，那規範對象是誰？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是辦案的人員嘛！"],["羅委員智強：辦案的人員嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，台權會問內政部有2,300萬我們全臺灣人民的個資被洩漏，結果內政部「一退六二五」，你知道它的藉口是什麼嗎？它不肯交代所有、不肯做政府公開透明的訊息，它的理由藉口是什麼？是什麼你知道嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦，偵查不公開……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那我想請教你，法務部有沒有要求內政部……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：必須用偵查不公開做理由，不公開它該公開的資訊，有沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：是啊，很多案子也是都沒有經過承辦單位……告訴它你不能公開才不公開，他們自己不想公開，就說這個是偵查不公開。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得非常好！我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好！今天偵查不公開，實際上某種程度已經被行政機關用來當作遮掩政府透明資訊，甚至敷衍立法院該有的監督的一個藉口了。將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開，我覺得就真的直接來問法務部的意見啦！偵查不公開可不可以做為今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由，就讓法務部來判斷，你覺得如何呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容，在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的。"],["羅委員智強：辦案人員不能對外，但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督，對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資訊，就拿台權會質疑的這案子來看，你從哪邊基礎資料、基礎資訊，難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不過，如果行政機關是接受辦案單位去詢問說這部分怎麼樣的情節，請它提供資料，它也許會認為因為是檢察機關來問或是司法警察機關來問……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛都講過，偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員。"],["蔡部長清祥：辦案的內容，還有包括瞭解辦案的也有……"],["羅委員智強：刑事訴訟法是規定辦案人員啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們作業辦法裡面有，如果其他行政機關……"],["羅委員智強：作業辦法是法律嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然在法律之下。"],["羅委員智強：如果你今天要規範到行政院、行政官員都要偵查不公開的話，你就寫到法律裡面去啊，不是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果牽涉到刑事案件的偵查，當然它也有不公開的責任啦！"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講的是什麼？今天很多的案件，現在的行政官員就是一句偵查不公開，就全部推給法務部，推給檢察機關。"],["蔡部長清祥：要看案情的內容啦，如果涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能公開。"],["羅委員智強：最後我再問你一句話，我們在2022年5月9號，邢泰釗上任交接典禮的時候，他突然說三中案在高等法院審理當中，若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決。我想請問你，邢泰釗檢察總長適合談論個案嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天整個法制上偵查不公開，不管從你處分人數，今天有沒有按照刑法，所謂起訴的人數，包括你處分的輕重，根本就形同具文，然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢察機關高興要洩漏給媒體，獨家報導都出來了，然後就跟大家講媒體很厲害。因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦，這一點我也希望將來司法法制委員會要討論這件事情，到底偵查不公開範圍跟界限、跟保障的密度與強度為何，不能變成是檢察機關今天我愛公開就公開，就獨家了，我不愛公開，就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":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出去對不對"},{"start":217.615,"end":236.913,"text":"我想請教您到現在為止照省委員講7000件的討論367件的成立我想請問您最後我們臺北地檢署我們的檢察官、檢察機關起訴案件有多少按照所謂的刑法132條"},{"start":239.167,"end":267.184,"text":"起訴案件多少我要來瞭解看看瞭解多少能不能請我們的這個我覺得法務部部長你應該要瞭解吧如果你檢察官有人因此被起訴你總會知道吧當然因為各地每一個他的數字不同嘛我們還要經過統計我直接告訴部長啦你們現在所有行政懲處基本上積極警告積極申戒你覺得真的有約束力嗎"},{"start":268.968,"end":270.849,"text":"我分享一個個人的親身經歷我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過"},{"start":298.052,"end":326.344,"text":"我還記得傳訊以後檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說羅先生請你出去不要對外來去說任何有關案情的事情我說好沒問題可是不到一個禮拜我在接受詢問的內容全部週刊全部寫出來了我想請問一下我們的部長是我告訴媒體的嗎去告訴一些對我可能不利的一些消息面"},{"start":327.495,"end":353.681,"text":"是我告訴媒體的嗎我相信委員應該不會嘛那我只有跟檢察官講啊檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他人那就是問題來了今天我直接告訴大家偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同劇文嘛我們再講一個具體的例子齁你總知道馬總統的那個被起訴的案件嘛 對不對"},{"start":355.987,"end":370.635,"text":"我想請問你 你知道這個偵查不公開如果反映在個案上 監察院曾經對於這個北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告2019年12月18號 有看過這個報告嗎我告訴你報告的內容 我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題"},{"start":379.411,"end":397.258,"text":"他認為媒體大幅報導公開照片相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法245條偵查不公開的規定嚴重侵犯人權你覺得監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責你覺得是對的嗎"},{"start":402.255,"end":421.514,"text":"檢察院他當然有他的職責：他的角度、看法然後我再跟你講 調查報告講齁當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢太昭跟主任檢察官王興建涉洩密後然後北檢齁就是傳訊新新聞、自由時報、淨州刊三位撰文記者"},{"start":422.395,"end":444.88,"text":"他們都稱檢查的主任檢察官、三中案承辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料然後調閱通聯記錄．也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九跟多名被告相關人事聯繫就此就認定說檢方沒有洩密就牽結了就這樣就認定了調查報告也認為說你這樣做法實質上"},{"start":445.973,"end":446.694,"text":"就是落實執行的程度如何?我跟部長說"},{"start":471.169,"end":487.084,"text":"事實上你可以從所有的重大案件包括從楊文科也好 對不對非常厲害啊今天楊文科的案情是誰把他全部揭露的是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的嗎 是嗎"},{"start":488.131,"end":505.779,"text":"不是啊不是啊這是誰報導的啊據姓名義的報導那個是陳辦的檢察署他因為外界的質疑或是外界要了解他做適度的說明嘛他做適度的說明請問他是不是在因為媒體報導之後他才出來說明是不是"},{"start":509.546,"end":526.058,"text":"有可能媒體去詢問嘛媒體去詢問你就可以說明了就可以開始去帶風向了嗎是這個意思嗎那偵查不公開到底是規範什麼的啊我再講下一個例子啦我講就是今天偵查不公開規範的那個客體是誰規範對象是誰"},{"start":528.427,"end":549.527,"text":"就是辦案的人員嘛辦案的人員嘛 對不對那我想請教你 台權會問這個內政部2300萬的我們的全台灣人民的資料被洩漏結果內政部一推256 你知道他的藉口是什麼嗎他不肯交代所有 不肯做政府公開透明的訊息他理由藉口是什麼"},{"start":550.646,"end":579.731,"text":"市長你知道嗎因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦偵查不公開那我就想請教你法務部有沒有要求內政部必須用偵查不公開做理由來不公開他該公開的資訊有沒有是啊 很多案子也是都沒有經過懲辦單位有告訴他你不能公開才不公開他們自己就不想公開就說這個是偵查不公開我覺得非常好我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好"},{"start":580.592,"end":606.374,"text":"今天偵查不公開實際上某種程度已經變成行政機關遮掩政府透明資訊甚至敷衍立法院該有的所謂監督的一個藉口了那將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開我覺得真的就直接來問法務部的意見了偵查不公開可不可以作為說今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由就讓法務部來判斷你覺得如何呢"},{"start":607.523,"end":631.137,"text":"我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的那辦案人員不能對外但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資訊就拿台權會執意的這案子來看的話你從哪邊基礎資料基礎資訊難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎不過如果"},{"start":634.958,"end":635.719,"text":"你剛剛都講過偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員"},{"start":655.047,"end":677.815,"text":"行事訴訟法規定辦案人員啊作業辦法是法律嗎當然在法律之下你應該起碼如果你今天要規範到說行政院行政官員都要偵查不公開的話你就寫到法律裡面去啊不是嗎不過牽涉到刑事案件的偵查當然他也有不公開的責任我要特別講的是什麼"},{"start":679.113,"end":685.489,"text":"今天很多的案件現在的行政官員就是一去偵查不公開就全部推給法務部啦推給檢查機關啦"},{"start":686.789,"end":711.244,"text":"要看案情的內容啦如果跟涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能最後我再問你一句話我們在2022年5月9號秦泰昭上任交接典禮的時候他突然說山中案在高等法院審理當中若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決我想請問你秦泰昭檢查總長適合談論個案嗎"},{"start":717.709,"end":734.907,"text":"那看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法我要特別講今天整個法制上偵查不公開不管從你處分人數今天有沒有按照刑法所謂的起訴的人數包括你處分的輕重根本就形同劇文"},{"start":735.968,"end":755.339,"text":"然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢查機關你高興要洩露給媒體獨家報的都出來了然後就跟大家講說媒體很厲害因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦那這一點我也希望我們將來也是司法法制委員會要來討論這件事情偵查不公開到底範圍跟界限跟保障的密度跟強度"},{"start":755.999,"end":765.931,"text":"不能變成是今天我今天檢查機關我愛公開就公開就獨家了我不愛公開就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}