{"error":false,"id":["149966"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149966,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149966","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T10:28:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T10:39:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a76cc34c81acb967825cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6463ad1f040b56f5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:28:41 - 10:39:22","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時28分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，薛部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：薛部長，我們二個都是醫生，發生這樣的事情，真的是很遺憾。而且3個月的時間，就讓他小小的生命沒有辦法繼續長大。我們看到第二期計畫投入了400多億，我們政府到底做了什麼？我先問一個問題，「保母」這個詞、這個單字是從什麼時候開始講的？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我沒有辦法……"],["盧委員縣一：保母這個詞是從禮記就有了，就是從西元500年、600年就有了。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以很早以前就有了。"],["盧委員縣一：它的位階是在老師、慈母之下的第三個位階，也就是說，其實這個工作是非常重要的。我想問你第一個問題，有沒有這個劉姓保母的精神鑑定或者是精神報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望以後如果要成為保母的人，要有你的精神或者心智的鑑定，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們看到他跟他妹妹LINE聊天的內容，就已經發覺他很不正常啊！為什麼他可以擔任保母？"],["薛部長瑞元：這種反社會人格異常的人，其實是……"],["盧委員縣一：如果是全面性的，就是做一個比較通盤的心理評估，那也是可以啊！如果確定要當保母的話，應該要做1天或是2天所謂的精神鑑定啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在……"],["盧委員縣一：我覺得這是需要做的，不然一而再再而三發生這樣的事情……"],["薛部長瑞元：全國保母有兩萬多人……"],["盧委員縣一：好，沒有關係，我們努力看看，好不好？不然你花了那麼多預算、407億，都還是沒有進步的話，你就要去想想問題到底出在哪裡。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好。第二個問題，他為何轉換那麼多保母，從從出養一到出養四，這個問題是怎麼來的，可以告訴我嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：一開始的時候，是家屬自己去找了保母，然後當他要出養的時候……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，一、二、三都沒有問題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：一、二的時間並沒有很長，主要是第三個……"],["盧委員縣一：如果他們都照顧得很好，為什麼會換到第四？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們就針對這一點去做研議，就是他轉到兒福聯盟之後，為什麼兒福聯盟堅持一定要換保母，就是這件事情，因為兒福聯盟……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我看到的是，9月1號的時候就簽約了，然後9月25號兒盟第一次到保母家訪視，他寫了小孩有瘀青，瘀青對我們醫生來講是非常大的事情，而且是在臉部、在頭部，只要是這個的話，他是不是要做一個全身的照相？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["盧委員縣一：以後要有這樣子一個insight，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以這個部分剛剛我在口頭報告裡面有提到，我們必須要把checking list弄出來……"],["盧委員縣一：他1號簽約，25號就有瘀青了，對不對？然後26號社會局收案訪視完成，然後再過1個月，他說「較安靜」，就我的理解來講，如果是較安靜的話，是不是lethargy？就是比較昏昏欲睡的，這是不是已經是高危險群了？如果就醫生來看的話，就已經高度懷疑他被虐待了，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然就社工的專業裡面，也許沒有辦法去判斷這個啦！"],["盧委員縣一：OK，到底他有沒有看到，我是覺得不太可能，又加上11月的時候是牙齒掉了，牙齒掉了這件事情他有提出來，是被他打到牙齒掉下來，還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來，我覺得這時候就可以知道暴力與非暴力因素。那已經是死前一個月的事。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以一而再、再而三，越來越誇張，後來竟然只用LINE來回覆，最後就是通報急救。也就是可能只有第一次有看到，第二次、第三次可能都沒有看到。"],["薛部長瑞元：這點目前檢調正在調查，到底他是不是有去看？事實上有沒有去看？怎麼樣看？這點檢調現在在調查。這是社工的訪視報告，縱然如他所述，但這中間……"],["盧委員縣一：就以上我所講的重點來看，若訪視時有看到比較異常的就要高度懷疑，不要再信任那個讓他受傷的人！"],["薛部長瑞元：而且訪視報告應該在他的上級督導下，也應該要提出來……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我在此要提出疑問，為什麼事發3個月後才有檢討機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，臺北市、新北市的檢討報告都還沒來。依照我們的規定，必須在縣市政府通報的10天內要召開兒虐檢討報告，俟檢討報告來……"],["盧委員縣一：所以是地方政府的錯？是地方政府的錯嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這件事是沒有做到。兩個禮拜會送到我們衛福部，我們再根據其檢討報告再去……"],["盧委員縣一：到底是哪一個環節？這三個裡面，到底是衛福部、縣市政府，還是兒福聯盟？"],["薛部長瑞元：縣市政府沒有做檢討報告，這是確定的。到現在為止報告都還沒出來。"],["盧委員縣一：第三個問題，按照問題所呈現的來看，訪視制度需不需要馬上改善？你心裡面有沒有構想？"],["薛部長瑞元：就這部分，尤其對一些比較特殊的個案，訪視的制度必須要改善！訪視的頻率以及……"],["盧委員縣一：現在參與訪視的專業人員有哪些？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前主要還是社工人員。"],["盧委員縣一：只有社工嗎？現在不是有專責醫師制度？"],["薛部長瑞元：看他安置在什麼樣的……"],["盧委員縣一：有專責醫師以後，社工與護理人員不用訪視嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：護理人員是在進入專責醫師以後……"],["盧委員縣一：多久一次？護士多久一次？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上1個月一次。"],["盧委員縣一：醫生半年一次？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。但1個月一次是一定要把小孩子帶到……"],["盧委員縣一：如果因為舟車勞頓的話能不能增加視訊？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["盧委員縣一：因為3歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體權，就是要全部打開讓醫護人員看，可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["盧委員縣一：如果有這一項的話，這件事情應該就不會發生了！上次有問簡署長目前社工的比例，我們常常講的醫生服務的人口比是七百多比一，那社工呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為社工分好幾種不同的業務……"],["盧委員縣一：是，按照現在你所知道的？"],["簡署長慧娟：現在是一比三十五。"],["盧委員縣一：一比三十五？"],["簡署長慧娟：個案部分。"],["盧委員縣一：個案？不是全人口比？"],["薛部長瑞元：負責35個個案。"],["簡署長慧娟：每20萬人有一個社福中心。"],["盧委員縣一：我覺得明顯不夠！"],["簡署長慧娟：總共有156個社福中心。"],["盧委員縣一：我還是覺得明顯不夠，對不對？20萬人才一個社福中心？社福中心裡面有多少個社工？"],["簡署長慧娟：另外還有保護體系。"],["盧委員縣一：我們總覺得社工不夠，社工的待遇不好，是不是？所以我們要怎麼幫他們想辦法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是整體性問題，所以要改善服務內容以及待遇等等，這些都是我們要努力的方向。"],["盧委員縣一：就檢討措施來說，裡面有一個是要加強訪視重點與訪視員的敏感度。敏感度大家都會講，但什麼叫做敏感度？你可以告訴我嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：如同剛剛委員所提，有看到腫一個包，此時就要意識到……"],["盧委員縣一：你要怎麼考試？"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是考試的問題，而是……"],["盧委員縣一：就是因為沒有考試，也沒有勾稽或者變成稽查重點，這樣就不會有敏感度，永遠都不會有！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這部分就是我們未來要努力的方向，也就是看到什麼東西就必須要意識到……"],["盧委員縣一：那就是敏感度！既然知道，就要列入成為訓練重點，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對、對。"],["盧委員縣一：剛剛菁徽委員一直說都是地方政府的錯，所以我就不知道該怎麼讓您說……"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛我的口頭報告裡面，其實對於中央政府應該負的責任都有提到了。"],["盧委員縣一：我們剛才講到死亡率問題。就是現在國人的小朋友大概還是在千分之二點八，還是千分之四點多，對不對？我們原住民是一倍！之所以一倍，是因為我們比較處於交通弱勢，醫療資源也比較缺乏，所以在建立專責制度或訪視時必須多所變革或者權宜，也就是讓他們更方便，讓照顧的人或被評估的人，或者這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓，因為有時候到村莊去有12個小時以上的距離，好不好？因為我們的死亡率高一倍！不僅我們低於OECD標準，實則全國都低於OECD，更何況是我們？我們已經不是開發中國家，而是落後國家了，好不好？我們一起努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員的質詢，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"],["主席：我們繼續委員的發言質詢。","接下來我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.20909375,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.69784375,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.718468750000003,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.840343750000002,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.17659375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.99034375,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.63909375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.25471875,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.67159375000001,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.32846875,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.65721875,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.88846875,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker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in list他1號簽約的25號就有於清了對不對"},{"start":209.099,"end":232.499,"text":"然後26號就社會局就收案反思完成然後到23號再過一個月的時候他說叫安靜叫安靜如果就我的理解來講如果如果是叫安靜的話是不是就是比較澎湃易碎的啊這個是不是已經是高危險群的這個如果就醫生來看的話也就是已經是高度懷疑他被虐待嗎不是嗎"},{"start":235.177,"end":260.992,"text":"當然這個社工的專業裡面也許沒有辦法去判斷這一個那我到底他到底有沒有看到我是覺得不太可能加上那個第11月的話是牙齒掉這件事情他有提出來那是被他打到牙齒沒有掉下來還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來我是覺得這個暴力跟非暴力的因素這個時候就可以去知道了那已經是死前一個月的事情"},{"start":261.732,"end":266.654,"text":"這目前檢調正在調查到底他是不是有去看事實上有沒有去看那怎麼樣看這是檢調現在調查但是"},{"start":286.423,"end":287.364,"text":"為何事發三個月後才有檢討機制?"},{"start":315.338,"end":337.932,"text":"其實發言委員,臺北市、新北市的檢討報告都還沒來。那依照我們的這個規定的話,它必須是這個通報之後,縣市政府通報之後的話,在10天內就要召開這個檢討報告。檢討報告來在開完之後兩個禮拜就要...是嗎?是地方政府的錯嗎?"},{"start":341.482,"end":344.286,"text":"所以到底是哪一個環節是衛福部還是縣市政府還是兒福聯盟這三個"},{"start":358.641,"end":384.375,"text":"先是政府沒有做這個檢討報告這是確定的到現在為止也都報告還沒出來那第三個問題是我們按照這樣的一個問題呈現的話你的訪視制度有沒有馬上要改善還是說你有沒有你心裡面的構想對啊這個部分的話當然對於一些比較特殊的個案的話那訪視的制度必須要改善訪視頻率以及現在參與訪視的有哪些專業人員"},{"start":387.377,"end":415.598,"text":"目前的話主要還是社工的人員只有社工嗎?對現在專責醫師制度不是也有嗎?看他安置在什麼樣的現在有專責醫師以後只有社工跟護理人員不用訪視嗎?護理人員那個是進入到這個專責醫師的時候那是多久一次?會試是多久一次?基本上一個月然後醫生是半年一次?"},{"start":416.378,"end":439.761,"text":"對,但是一個月一次是說一定要把小孩子帶到舟車廊如果因為舟車廊對,能不能增加視訊的?當然是可以因為3歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體圈嘛,就是就把它全部打開,然後讓醫護人員看一下,可不可以?當然可以是,因為我覺得這個,如果有這一項的話,應該這件事情就不會發生了"},{"start":442.335,"end":472.021,"text":"我們上次有問過署長齁,進捐署長嗎?對,我也問你說那個匯捐那邊所以我也問你說社工目前的比例是多少人口?社工的比例我們現在常常在講醫生服務的人口比是700多比一二社工呢?因為社工齁,社工他有分好幾個這種不同的業務的區域那如果是按照現在的,你知道的社工平均是1比35"},{"start":472.657,"end":501.792,"text":"社福中心是20萬人會設一個我是覺得明顯不夠啊我是覺得明顯不夠嘛 對不對如果是20萬人才一個社福中心裡面有多少個社工因為我們總覺得社工不夠社工的待遇不好"},{"start":506.384,"end":515.181,"text":"整體性的問題當然要改善他的服務內容以及他的待遇等等這些都是我們要努力的方向"},{"start":517.313,"end":538.245,"text":"那我們在講到他的那個所謂的檢討措施裡面有一個就是說你們要加強訪視重點跟訪視員的敏感度那敏感度你很會講那什麼叫做敏感度你可以告訴我嗎就如同剛剛委員提到的他看到了一個包這個就要依視到那你要怎麼考試"},{"start":540.199,"end":561.925,"text":"這不是考試的問題,而是...對啊,所以就是因為你沒有考試,你沒有增加變成一個它的勾肌或者是說稽查它的重點,它就不會有敏感度,永遠都不會有對,所以這部分就是我們未來在努力的方向,也就是它看到什麼東西,然後它就必須要意識到...所以那個就是敏感度,所以你既然知道你就要把它列入你要訓練的一個重點,不是嗎?對,對"},{"start":570.253,"end":598.314,"text":"因為剛剛那個我們的經費委員一直在講都是地方政府的錯所以我就不知道該怎麼讓你說剛剛我的口頭報告裡面其實對中央政府應該負的責任我也都提到了好 那我們剛剛講到死亡率的問題就是我們現在國人的小朋友的話大概還是在千分之2.8還是千分之4點多 對不對那我們原住民的話是一倍喔那我們一倍的地方"},{"start":600.306,"end":625.561,"text":"我們又是比較交通弱勢然後醫療資源也比較缺乏所以在以後在建立裝折制度的時候或者說仿試的時候要多鎖一些變革或者說權宜也就是說讓他們更方便讓照顧的人或者說被評估的人或者是這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓因為每一個村莊有的時候都是一兩個小時以上的距離好不好因為我們的死亡率高一倍"},{"start":626.957,"end":626.977,"text":"盧縣一"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}