{"error":false,"id":["149967"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149967,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149967","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T10:28:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T10:41:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ad6a5853db02fdf333919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a607e920e284d7c1245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:28:13 - 10:41:01","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時28分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院黃副秘書長，及法務部蔡部長和刑事警察局周局長。"],["主席：副秘書長、蔡部長、周局長，麻煩請上臺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副秘書長、部長、局長好。現在請教一下副秘書長，請問偵查不公開的法源依據為何？好像報告當中只有你們有寫。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，據此我們還有一個不公開的作業辦法對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：作業辦法是司法院跟行政院會銜發布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這是院部會銜發布的。那麼請問一下，哪些事項不得公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，包含偵查的程序跟偵查內容跟所得的心證……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那哪些人不能公開，剛很多委員都問，哪些人必須遵守？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：包含檢察官、檢察事務官，還有司法警察，還有辯護人、告訴代理人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯。包括司法警察、司法警察官、檢察官、辯護人，而且在作業辦法第九條當中自白、證據、卷宗、偵查方式、程序、計畫，甚至涉嫌隱私都不可以公開，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這些人要遵守，請問一下什麼時候有例外？什麼時候可以公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，在作業辦法第八條有規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，幫你列出來了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，書面上面已經有列，例外可以公開的主要就是國家安全、社會治安或者偵辦犯罪提醒大眾防範，或者是請求社會大眾協助調查證據，或者是通緝的人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比如說像暴力犯脫逃對不對？我們要趕快發布。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長同意嗎，偵查不公開也有例外必須要遵守的？好，現在請教部長，請問一下在不久之前金廈水域的快艇翻覆案，這個事故它的航跡圖是符合哪一項必須公開的？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這也是涉及到整個國家安全、社會治安，還有大家所矚目，所以有一些疑問可以適度地來對外說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那誰來判斷？是由偵辦中的檢調、司法警察官、檢察官，還是由誰來認定這個是符合什麼什麼，因為你們訂了標準，誰來認定？"],["蔡部長清祥：由檢察官跟其他司法警察及辦案等人員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚了，司法偵辦的主體可以根據這個得例外公開的項目來判斷是否符合，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果檢察官認為這個沒有到達那個情況，他就可以不公開，是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：他會按照整個案情，或是外界一些質疑的、需要澄清說明的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是部長，顯然這樣的答復在不久之前，立法院有在野黨委員仍不滿意，他就說他要調閱。請問一下副秘書長，立法院調閱權的依據跟範圍？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：看立法院本身的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院可以調閱嗎？有沒有大法官的解釋？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：是，有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：釋字729？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：對，釋字729。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那它規定什麼？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：偵查中的案件要遵守偵查秘密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那什麼時候可以調閱？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：如果沒有涉及偵查秘密……"],["鍾委員佳濱：偵查中就不得公開，偵查終結、特定議案、有重大職務相關，立法院為了行使職權才能公開，部長你同意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以剛剛那個案子來講，如果立法院要行使調閱權，必須等到偵查完畢，然後我們根據立法委員的職權行使需要，那麼國會就可以調查偵查中的卷證嗎？檢察官要公開是一回事，他可以判斷哪些符合重大社會公益，但是國會要調閱，這是誰可以來決定？偵查中是不是就不得調閱？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：依照大法官解釋，偵查中的案件調查是要受限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是受限的，好，那這很清楚了嘛！司法院副秘書長都講了。那我來問一下部長，假設以剛剛那個案例來講，同一個證據，目前司法警察官或者檢察官在進行偵辦當中，結果民意機關要調閱，A機關的B公文是重要證據，那民意機關要調閱B公文，實務上會不會影響到偵查？"],["蔡部長清祥：會影響到偵查的話，就不應該對外。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛講到偵查中是不能調閱的，要調閱的話，如果這個證據正在進行偵辦中、在使用，這樣的調閱會不會影響到偵查？"],["蔡部長清祥：由檢察官來判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是由檢察官判斷嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以法務部一向認為，有關這個題目，檢察官的判斷很重要。好，那繼續往下問，請問一下，如果國會在行使文件調閱權卻調不到文件，那我乾脆找看文件的人，我調檢察官來、我調部長來，因為部長看過……"],["蔡部長清祥：我沒有看過，我不會看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，假設嘛！假設有些事情、在偵辦中的案件，有些公務機關有看過，但因為偵辦中，檢察官在偵辦了，公務機關不提供，是不是這樣？既然不提供，至少我調你們的長官來問，目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權，把其他國家的國會聽證權如何行使搬到臺灣來。請問，如果按照這個例子，你的文件我不能調，看過文件的人，我調來問可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：基本上應該不可以啦！因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察官如果認為這影響到他後續的偵查，任何人都不能講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他不講，他可不可以實施緘默權？他不講可能會被判藐視國會喔！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是我們遵守偵查不公開嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，所以我們剛才談了最近很多的熱門議題，偵查中的案件國會可不可以有調閱權，如果沒有辦法調閱，可不可以辦理聽證權？聽證權來了，可不可以緘默？如果不講，可不可以判藐視國會？","好，我們再談一個問題，包括不自證己罪的問題，如果被告質詢原告，要迴避嗎？有些司法案件，如果民意代表本身為本案的被告，就偵查不公開議題來質詢檢調司法機關，您覺得有沒有迴避的必要？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想我們辦案的檢調會遵守規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是誰該迴避？是民意代表要迴避，還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想大家都要遵守這個原則，不管是當事人或是辦案人員，大家都要心中有一把尺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於目前國會在行使質詢權的同時，我們要很謹慎注意，如果這些事情未來可能發展到刑事案件，千萬、千萬不要被告變法官。","所以我們就來看，有一個笑話在「八尺門的辯護人」中，3位有沒有看過這部電視劇？有沒有聽過？有啦！在這個電視劇當中，有一個很有名的對白，有一次開庭被告遲到，法官就提議來做說笑話比賽，有檢察官跟律師同意之後，法官就說這個笑話叫做「無罪推定」，這當然是一個諷刺，檢察官也說「偵查不公開」是個笑話，律師也說「律師倫理」是個笑話，這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的。部長，你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果就檢察官的部分，我們是要嚴守啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，就是不能把它當作笑話。好，那我們來看一下現實上的情況，我請教部長跟署長，署長，還記得一個案件嗎？有一個很無辜的人，他說現場留了6個彈殼，這個案子，大家記憶深刻對不對？有沒有？結果後來就暴露了這個人可能是嫌疑犯，然後這個人說：沒想到一早醒來被全國通緝。局長有沒有記得這個案子？"],["周局長幼偉：報告，知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是烏龍事件？"],["周局長幼偉：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要查察一個重大的刑案，結果不小心變成個人的隱私洩露，部長，你覺得這個事情算不算違反偵查不公開，造成當事人隱私受損的情況？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是辦案的內容會影響到偵查，那就需要檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，你認為呢？這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩，造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損？"],["周局長幼偉：這個應該是有，但問題是這個案子本來是我們在內部群組裡面討論的一個對象，並沒有對外公布，但是記者不知道怎麼拿到，當然我們會檢討……"],["鍾委員佳濱：欸，你們又來囉，內部討論被記者公布，你們先檢討記者怎麼拿到的，不去檢討是誰洩漏出去的，你們難道是這樣的態度嗎？"],["周局長幼偉：這個我們自己本身也會檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛其實還有委員問到一個案子，是某個縣長的案子，你們證人在現場的對話說：縣長搞定了，餐券都用光了。有沒有這樣的事例發生？局長，有沒有？不曉得。法務部地檢署，有沒有？知道講哪個案子吧？剛才羅委員質疑的案子，這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話，當然我們要檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是你們辦案人員，但人家有辦法不當取得，那你覺得責任是誰的？"],["蔡部長清祥：都有責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有責任，很好。來，我跟你講，剛剛黃國昌委員問了一個很容易回答的問題，記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室嗎？可不可以？"],["蔡部長清祥：他如果用來賓或是用其他的身分，經過登記，請他進去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，請你告訴部長……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有說不可以啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，請你告訴部長，你們為了落實偵查不公開的作業辦法，你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點，包括不得帶媒體辦案、不得洩露現場模擬、不得讓嫌疑犯接受拍攝，還要設置適當的封鎖區、卷宗要保密、當事人要掩蔽等等。部長，你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我知道他們有訂辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有訂辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們也有訂。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的辦法說要設發言人，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要劃設禁制區，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果要求檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區，你覺得可行嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果就採訪的行為要受到限制，如果不是採訪，而是其他的因素，例如來賓拜訪，那我們當然依照規定來做嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你要慎思啊！今天檢察官他的桌上有很多待偵辦中的案子，今天有媒體朋友來拜訪他，你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把它列為禁制區嗎？為了避免不小心內容外洩。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們有列為禁制區，要刷卡才能進去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官的辦公室是禁制區？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，那個區域是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：記者可以進去？"],["蔡部長清祥：記者如果有經過登記或是說有通知……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你們好好檢討。","我們看最後一個，這也是一個實證的例子──媽媽嘴案，無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人，生意全毀了，我覺得今天我們要落實偵查不公開，要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整地方，所以請教法務部跟警政署，因為警政署長沒有來，我就請教法務部，可不可以盤點過去1年內有違反偵查不公開的案例？你們可不可以盤點一下？整理一下到底是哪些樣態？如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向什麼，比如說可能是媒體藉由訪客的身分從檢察官辦公室不小心看到，如果有這種情況，那你們就要慎重地考慮偵查不公開的相關場域保密辦法，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先針對過去1年違反偵查不公開的案例，把它盤點一下，好嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後3個月提出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調不到文件"},{"start":337.088,"end":354.818,"text":"那我乾脆找在看文件的人我叫檢察官來我叫部長來因為部長看過請問我沒有看過我不會看到假設嘛假設有些事情在偵辦中的案件有些公務機關有看過但因為偵辦中了嘛檢察官在偵辦了嘛公務機關不提供嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":355.618,"end":384.465,"text":"那不提供那至少我調你們的長官來問目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權在其他的國家國會聽證權的五個行使到辦到台灣來請問如果按照這個例子如果你的文件我不能調看過文件的人我調來問可以嗎基本上應該不可以因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權檢察官如果認為這個是影響到他後續的偵查那如果他不講他說他可不可以實施檢討權"},{"start":386.8,"end":387.48,"text":"來 如果被告質詢原告"},{"start":415.652,"end":438.169,"text":"那麼要迴避嗎有些司法案件如果說民意代表本身為本案的被告就偵查不公開議題來諮詢檢調司法機關您覺得有沒有迴避的必要我想我們的辦案的檢調他會遵守規定那是誰該迴避是民意代表要迴避還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避"},{"start":442.045,"end":470.404,"text":"我想大家都要遵守這個原則不管是當事人或是辦案人員大家都在心中有一把尺所以我之前對於目前國會在刑死諮詢權的同時我們要很謹慎的去注意到如果這些事情未來可能發展到刑死刑事案件千萬千萬不要被告變法官所以我們就來看現在有一個笑話就是在一個八尺門的辯護人三位有沒有看過這部電視劇"},{"start":472.566,"end":495.587,"text":"有沒有聽過有啦齁在這個電視劇當中呢有一個很有名的對白齁他有一次開庭被告遲到法官就提議說來說笑話比賽檢察官跟律師同意了法官就說這個笑話叫做什麼無罪推定這當然是一個諷刺啦檢察官也說偵查不公開是個笑話律師也說律師倫理是個笑話這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的部長你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎"},{"start":498.054,"end":525.07,"text":"如果就檢察官的部分我們是要嚴守啦很好就不能把他當作笑話好我們來看一下但現實上呢我請亞部長跟署長來署長齁還記得一個案件嗎有一個很無辜的人啊他說欸現場留6個蛋殼這個這個案子大家記憶深刻對不對有沒有結果呢後來呢就暴露了這個可能是嫌疑犯然後呢這個人呢就說沒想到一早醒來呢被全國通緝"},{"start":526.912,"end":543.327,"text":"局長有沒有記的這個案子?報告知道這是個烏龍事件你們要查查一個重大的刑案結果呢不小心變成一個個人的隱私洩露了部長你覺得這個事情算不算有違反偵查不公開造成當事人隱私受損的情況"},{"start":544.414,"end":574.061,"text":"如果是在辦案的內容啊那會影響到偵查那就需要檢討了局長你認為這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損這個應該是有但是問題是這個案子本來是在我們內部群組裡面在討論的一個對象並沒有對外公布但是記者不知道怎麼拿到的欸欸欸你們要來要來囉內部討論被記者公布你們先研討記者怎麼拿到的不去檢討是誰洩露出去的"},{"start":574.261,"end":600.108,"text":"你難道是這樣的態度嗎?這個我們會,我們自己本身也會檢討好,剛剛的其實還有委員問到的就是有一個案子齁,欸,這個某個案子齁某個縣長的案子,那麼你們證人的對話你們證人的對話說,這場搞定了,餐券都用光了有沒有這樣的事件發生?有沒有這樣的事例發生?局長有沒有?不曉得,那法務部第1檢署有沒有這樣講的那個案子吧?剛剛羅委員解釋的那個案子,再問委員長他不公開?"},{"start":601.308,"end":622.077,"text":"如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話當然我們要檢討那如果人有不是你們辦案人員人家有辦法不當取得那你覺得是責任是誰的都有責任啊都有責任很好來我跟你講齁剛剛呢黃國昌委員問了一個黃總統說一個我很同意記者可以跑到檢查官辦公室嗎"},{"start":624.424,"end":652.441,"text":"他如果用來賓的身份或是用其他的如果登記那請他進去沒有說不可以啦局長請你告訴部長你們為了落實偵查不公開的做辦法你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點包括什麼包括不得代媒體辦案不得洩露現場模擬不得讓嫌疑犯的接受拍攝還要設上適當封鎖區案中要卷中要保密等等等當事人要掩蔽"},{"start":653.522,"end":669.581,"text":"部長 你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法我知道他們有訂辦法阿你們是有訂辦法 有沒有我們也有訂阿你們辦法說什麼 要設發驗人對不對是要發射禁制區對不對是那如果要求說檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區 你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":671.612,"end":672.252,"text":"部長,你要慎思啊"},{"start":686.075,"end":705.509,"text":"今天檢察官他的桌上有很多帶偵辦中的案子今天有媒體的朋友來拜訪他你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把他列為一個為了避免不小心內容外洩應該列為禁制區嗎是 我們有列為禁制區啊檢察官的辦公室是禁制區檢察官的辦公室是禁制區記者可以進去"},{"start":708.091,"end":733.624,"text":"記者他如果有經過登記或是說有通知所以請你們好好檢討我們看最後一個就是這也是一個實證例子媽媽嘴案無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人生意全毀了那麼我覺得這個今天我們要落實偵查不公開要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整的地方所以請法務部跟警政署因為警政署沒有來我就請到法務部可不可以盤點過去一年內有違反偵查不公開的案例"},{"start":734.264,"end":761.143,"text":"可不可以你們攀連一下整理一下到底是哪些樣態如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向比如說可能媒體呢藉由訪客的身份從檢察官辦公室不小心看到如果有這種情況那你們就要慎重的考慮你們的這個偵查不公開相關的場域的保密辦法可以嗎?可以先在整好過去一年對不對偵查違反這個案例把它攀連一下好嗎?好然後呢三個月提出改進辦法"},{"start":762.287,"end":763.952,"text":"是,好。可以嗎?謝謝。好,謝謝副秘書長,謝謝局長,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}